Talk:Kathleen Freeman (classicist)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kathleen Freeman (classicist)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 16:07, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Initial comments

After a first read-through I think this is approaching GA standard. It is short – 857 words – but we don't judge GAs by volume, and if, as it appears, this is all there is to say about Freeman then so be it. In any case, comprehensiveness is required at FAC but is not obligatory at GAN.

Most of the comments below are merely suggestions: they don't affect the promotability of the article, but I hope you will find some or all useful:

• Lead

• "was a gay British classical scholar" – unless someone's sexuality is relevant to his or her notability (e.g. a gay activist) there is no reason to mention it in the lead. See MOS:CONTEXTBIO.

• Early life and education

• "Charles H Freeman" – I see from Ancestry.co.uk that he was Charles Henry Freeman, but if you prefer to give just his middle initial it needs a full stop (Wikipedia having yet to make it into the late 20th century so far as punctuation is concerned).
• "and Catherine Mawdesley" – this reads as though the parents were not married, but Catherine Freeman is recorded in the 1911 census as being married to Charles Freeman for 14 years, and if my arithmetic is correct (not a foregone conclusion) that means they were married at the time of their daughter's birth.

[Afterthought: I think Freeman's mother may have been Catharine, rather than Catherine. She is the former in the 1911 census return, in her husband's writing, and one assumes he knew. Their marriage certificate has the vowel overwritten, presumably as a correction, but whether to alter an "a" to an "e" or vice versa I can't make out. Can you check your sources?]

• "become a Classicist of note" – no reason, surely, to capitalise classicist? You don't in the title of the article.

• Academic Career

• Lower-case "career" in header, please (MoS)
• "delivered lectures on Greece to the Ministry of Information" – the preposition seems strange: one might expect "at" or "for", but I am quite prepared to be told I'm wrong.
• "The Western Mail" – should be italicised.
• "acted as Supervisor of Studies … becoming the chairman in 1952" – unclear why one post is capitalised and the other isn't.
• Picture caption – missing possessive apostrophe. (And one picture says "Market Road" and the other "Market Street".)

• Personal life

• "lived with her lifelong partner" – "lifelong" seems odd here if they weren't partners until Freeman was in her late twenties.

• Bibliography

• It looks strange to give oclc numbers for most of Freeman's books but omit them from five of them.
• Authors' and publishers' initials: best to be consistent about spacing. We have W.W. Norton but C. H. Quennell
• It looks as though a line-break and bullet are missing before 1952 Clues to Christabel

• References

• Page numbers: best to be consistent: the usual form is p. 531 as in ref 11, but there are several spaceless and dotless p344s and p343s. Citations to multiple pages should be, e.g. pp. 343–344
• Carty's 2014 book is not as startlingly devoid of capital letters in its title as you represent: see here.

Over to you. Happy to discuss any point if you wish. Tim riley talk 16:07, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Tim riley, this is very useful! Srsval (talk) 09:32, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

I think I've addressed all of your points Tim riley and the article is much tidier as a result Srsval (talk) 10:09, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

I think you have, too, so:

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced.

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   Well illustrated.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Well illustrated.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I enjoyed this article, which was a pleasure to review. I hadn't heard of Freeman or − more to the point for a devotee of old-school detective fiction − Mary Fitt, and will seek out her work. Moreover, I enjoyed reading the wonderful Edith Hall's "Invisible Classicist" broadside, so thank you! Tim riley talk 12:13, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

That's great news Tim riley! Thanks so much for your work reviewing this article. Srsval (talk) 15:29, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 01:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that classicist Kathleen Freeman worked to bring Greek texts to the general public and gave lectures on ancient Greece for the Ministry of Information during the Second World War? Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Freeman_(classicist)

Created by Srsval (talk). Self-nominated at 13:58, 18 April 2022 (UTC).

• I would like to review this nomination, and will do so shortly. TSventon (talk) 14:53, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
• Srsval, review follows.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Thank you for an interesting article, which needs a few tweaks for DYK. It is new enough as a WP:GA, long enough and neutrally written. It is mostly cited inline and I have assumed good faith where I could not access sources. However the paragraph beginning "Freeman is best known for her works" needs to be cited. Do sources say "Freeman was gay" or leave it for readers to work out for themselves? Also I couldn't verify the paragraph beginning "In recent years Freeman's work has been re-assessed" in the sources provided. Earwig's tool shows some overlap with sources, which is mostly due to names of books and University College... However "writing 27 books ... Mallett" seems to be a quote From Ancilla to the Pre-Socratic Philosophers and should be reworded. The hook facts are stated in the article, but are currently not immediately followed by an inline citation to a reliable source. Also could you possibly provide an alternative hook based on detective fiction? The picture in the article is fair use and cannot be used on this nomination page. You are QPQ exempt as this is your fourth nomination. TSventon (talk) 23:59, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks TSventon for your time and effort reviewing this. I've added a citation for the paragraph beginning 'Freeman is best known for her works...'. I've reworded the sentence about 27 books to avoid overlap, and I've added a citation to the sentence about Freeman's work being reassessed. I removed then re-added the bit about her short stories being republished as I found a reliable source. I've also added in a reliable source for the hook. Srsval (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Srsval, thank you for your answers and edits. I regret that I haven't been able to suggest any obvious improvements to the article, which I suppose will always be more difficult for a new good article. I still have some questions below, which I have numbered for convenience.

1 You didn't answer whether sources say "Freeman was gay" or leave it for readers to work out for themselves?

2 I have found some close paraphrasing of An Unconventional Classicist, some may be unavoidable, but could you have another look at the wording?

• "It is not ... Greek, or from whom"
• "Freeman had a working ... Greek"
• "Except for French, ... languages"
• "the University ... charter granted in 1893"
• "A picture of the faculty ... had a doctorate"

3 Could reference 4 be merged with reference 2 as both are editions of An Unconventional Classicist?

4 The citation for the paragraph beginning 'Freeman is best known for her works...' only mentions the Ancilla, do you have a reference for the Companion?

5 The Queer Square Mile reference says Freeman is the subject of research, I don't think that that shows that her "work has been re-assessed, especially in the light of queer traditions in Welsh women's writings", could you reword based on the references?

6 "From early in her career, Freeman worked to bring Greek texts to the general public through her work in translating texts and presenting her ideas to general audiences" still needs to be directly followed by a citation, as it supports part of the hook

7 "During the Second World War Freeman delivered lectures on Greece for the Ministry of Information and in the National Scheme of Education for HM Forces in South Wales and Monmouthshire" you didn't give a page number for the reference, however it is supported by An Unconventional Classicist, page 323.

8 You uploaded File:Kathleen_Freeman_-_Obituary.jpg as your own work, however it is not your own work if you just scanned it and as a 1959 newspaper article it is probably still copyright protected, see Commons:Commons:Copyright rules.

9 Should Ministry of Information be wikilinked in the hook?

10 I don't find the hook particularly surprising, could you provide an alternative, possibly mentioning the detective stories? TSventon (talk) 07:26, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

• Hello all, Just a line to say I'll pick this up, after @TSventon: posted here about it. Might take me a couple of days to get my head around the details though! Lajmmoore (talk) 17:07, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm going to strike throuhg points above as I address them Lajmmoore (talk) 17:11, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I have nominated the 1959 newspaper clipping for deletion on Commons and have struck question 8. TSventon (talk) 17:26, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Point 8 I'm not a Commons expert, but I think it's a bit more complicated - this says the file was originally uploaded under Fair Use as a "historic portrait" by @Jason.nlw:, but I agree there might need to be an update of the non-free use rationale Lajmmoore (talk) 17:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

For Point 1 - I added whose opinions are in the cited sources to be clear where the evidence is coming from Lajmmoore (talk) 17:52, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

For Point 5 (& apologies this is out of order, I'm addressing things by ease :D ) - I think I've clarified the text so it aligns more closely with the sources Lajmmoore (talk) 18:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

For Point 2, I've copy edited the sentences picked out Lajmmoore (talk) 18:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

• ALT1 * ... that Cardiff-based classicist Kathleen Freeman wrote detective fiction under four separate pseudonyms? Source: Irwin, M. E. (2004) 'Freeman, Kathleen (1897–1959)', in Todd, R. B ed. The Dictionary of British Classicists. Volume I, A-F. p. 344. Source2: Carty (2014). A Dictionary of Literary Pseudonyms in the English Language. New York. p.448. ISBN978-1-135-95578-6. OCLC931534831. Source3:Carty (2014). A Dictionary of Literary Pseudonyms in the English Language. New York. p.448. ISBN978-1-135-95578-6. OCLC931534831.

I've also struck Points 6, 9, 10 now there's and ALT1 hook suggested. On the subject of the image, Fair Use images can't be used in the DYK, but I don't see an issue with it being used on the page under Fair Use as its a "historic portrait of someone no longer alive". Please let me know if there are any further changes or clarifications to make Lajmmoore (talk) 18:28, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Image deletion - it just dawned it was the newspaper clipping - I missed that detail, so struck my comments on it out. I'm a bit over-tired I think, so please forgive that oversight. Lajmmoore (talk) 18:33, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Lajmmoore, thank you for stepping into the breach. I am now happy with points 2 to 10. As to 1, I would incline to remove the phrase "Freeman was gay" or now "According to classicist Edith Hall, Freeman was gay". TSventon (talk) 22:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:Kathleen Freeman (classicist) § "Freeman was gay"

 – TSventon (talk) 14:18, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Srsval, I am now happy to pass this. I have a slight preference for hook ALT1. Lajmmoore, thank you again. TSventon (talk) 19:10, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Lajmmoore for picking this up and all of your work on this! I'm really glad to see this on Wikipedia's front page today, brilliant! TSventon Sorry I couldn't get to it, it was a lot of work at a busy time Srsval (talk) 12:34, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Kathleen Freeman - Obituary.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

"Freeman was gay"

Moved from Template:Did you know nominations/Kathleen Freeman (classicist)

 – TSventon (talk) 14:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I would incline to remove the phrase "Freeman was gay" or now "According to classicist Edith Hall, Freeman was gay". My concern is that it is referenced to Edith Hall's "How to Conceal a Female Scholar", which only says "She lived with her girl-friend". The second reference by Eleanor Irwin says "She lived from some time ... with her friend Dr Liliane". The references describe Freeman's relationship without labelling it, so it feels like WP:SYNTHESIS for Wikipedia to choose a label. I found a conversation with Edith Hall where she says "There are also quite a large number of what we’re pretty sure are women who loved other women, though how much they knew they did or not is up for debate" and mentions Freeman as an example. It is not an area of Wikipedia I am expert in, so any comments are welcome. TSventon (talk) 22:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

• TSventon, Thanks for the comment, I've removed "gay", and added in the quote about Clopet being Freeman's "girl-friend" - @Another Believer: who might have some advice with their Wiki Loves Pride hat on? Lajmmoore (talk) 09:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Lajmmoore, I still don't think we need the extra sentence, I think "she lived with her long-term partner" or "she lived with her girlfriend" are based on what the sources say and we shouldn't go beyond that. We don't need to attribute the statement to Edith Hall as she isn't saying anything controversial. I will be interested to hear any more knowledgeable opinion. TSventon (talk) 10:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• TSventon Shall we ask at WP:Wiki Loves Pride, or another project, maybe WP:Biography too? I agree another set of eyes, who are more experienced in writing about LGBTQ folks, would be beneficial to the personal section. I'm happy to post in the project pages? Lajmmoore (talk) 11:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Lajmmoore, thank you, I am happy toaccept your offer to post in the project pages. TSventon (talk) 12:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Feel free to seek editor assistance over Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies. The talk page is pretty active. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 12:43, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• I have posted notices at WP:Biography and Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies. TSventon (talk) 14:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

  @TSventon and Lajmmoore: Not officially part of Wiki Loves Pride, but I think I'd have a useful perspective—and ezlev generally has keen insights in this area. The key, to me, is striking a balance between WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS/WP:OR and accounting for the widely acknowledged historical trend of LGBT erasure. I think that TSventon's suggestion of "she lived with her girlfriend" is best; it's about as close as we can get with the sourcing we have. Inline attribution/quoting to Hall also works, but to me, it's not entirely necessary. We can't come out and say she was gay, but saying she lived with her girlfriend is verifiably true and lets the readers interpret the sourcing for themselves. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron and Lajmmoore: I have implemented my suggestion following TLC's response. TSventon (talk) 09:32, 20 May 2022 (UTC)