Talk:Kaufering concentration camp complex

Removal of non-NPOV section regarding depiction in "Band of Brothers"

Edit Revision as of 23:10, 30 January 2015 by 74.79.254.133 does not represent NPOV, and is contrary to primary historical references, viz. "A reconstruction of the camp was shown in the "Why We Fight" episode of Band of Brothers. But the camp was not liberated by the 101st Airborne as shown in the movie. Actually, it was not "liberated" at all because the SS had fled before US troops arrived. The American troops encountered only a very few prisoners wandering around in the vicinity of the abandoned camp." By that reckoning, none of the Nazi concentration camps were "liberated", as almost all SS and Wehrmacht guards left concentration camps in advance of the arrival of Allied troops. According to the U.S. Holocaust Museum and the United State Center for Military History {http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10006170}, Kaufering was liberated by the 12th Armored Division, and according to the Europäische Holocaustgedenkstätte Stiftung (European Holocaust Memorial Foundation), Capt. John Paul Jones of the 134th Ord Maint Bn led a group salvaging armored vehicles when they came across the camp. Edited statement also described what is in the movie, not what occurred when the camp was liberated, so that description does not belong in this article. Text pertaining to Kaufering Camp edited and references added. Barry Eagel (talk) 23:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kaufering concentration camp complex/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ed! (talk · contribs) 03:50, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Looking at this one. —Ed!^(talk) 03:50, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria) (see here for this contributor's history of GA reviews)

1. It is reasonably well written:

   Pass External links, dup links and dab links look good. Copyvio detector returns green.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable:

   Source Spotcheck Refs 2, 31 and 40 back up content cited in the article.

3. It is broad in its coverage:

   Not Yet

   • Lead should be expanded a bit more to summarize the article. The number of prisoners and estimates on those who died should be included, as well more of the background in the "Establishment" section.

   • Done some of this, let me know what you think.

   • "Previously, Nazi Germany had attempted to make the Reich Judenrein ("cleansed of Jews") by deporting all Jews to eastern areas." -- Be more specific: it wanted to remove Jews from Germany so it moved them to Polish and Russian lands?

   • That doesn't work because many were deported to Belarus or the Baltic states (c.f. Minsk Ghetto, Kalevi-Liiva)

   • Any idea of the number of guards and staff of the camp?

   • None of the sources state this.

   • Also an aggregate size of the locations would be useful.

   • Also not stated in the sources.

   • At the top of the list of camps, it may be helpful to explain the bunker system that was to be constructed, or at least lay out a general idea of what the plan was, as the list currently is now it can be hard to follow. Per below, again recommending some kind of a map. Perhaps the second graph of "Prisoners" can be moved up?

   • I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence.

   • Personal opinion would be the second paragraph of the "Prisoners" section, which deals with the hangars they were building, be moved up, because as the article currently reads it's not really established what the bunkers were or where, only mentions of a few of their names in the list of the camps. —Ed!^(talk) 20:29, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

   • I think you meant the second paragraph in the "Forced labor" section. I've moved the entire section first, lmk what you think. buidhe 20:40, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

   • Context needed for "Dyckerhoff & Widmann firm"

   • Linked. Unfortunately, the source doesn't say what kind of prefabricated components.

   • "Liberation and Aftermath" and the infobox conflict on the U.S. Army units that liberated the camp. It's not clear to me if this is inaccurate; the section says liberation was 24-27 April but only mentions a unit that arrived on 27 April.

   • There were various divisions involved in the liberation, so I've changed it to just "Seventh United States Army", which is what is in Fenner.

   • Europäische Holocaustgedenkstätte: Redlink needs to be moved to first reference. In the meantime, what this group is should be explained in the article.

   • Done

   • It might be good to indicate, where the sources say, what specifically has become of each of the individual subcamps and their land.
   • "Inmates" line in the infobox needs a citation.

   • I think that's covered in the text where it states "Almost all of the prisoners were Jews.[2][5]" per WP:INFOBOXCITE

   • "In Popular Culture" can be expanded because both of those works stand as significant representations of the Holocaust overall. If I recall Band of Brothers treats it very traumatically as a way to show the impact liberation had on service members, and the mention of the book could be expanded a bit to explain what is contained there.

   • Done

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy:

   Pass There is a decent variety of sourcing here.

5. It is stable:

   Pass No problems there.

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate:

   Is a map possible? I strongly think one is needed.

   Possibly; there is a map on Fenner, p. 226. However, although I've made several location maps on Wikipedia, I don't know how to make a map on smaller scale.

   See below. —Ed!^(talk) 20:29, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

7. Other:

   On Hold Pending a few fixes. —Ed!^(talk) 04:49, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Here's the text for a location map. I've gone ahead and added two points mentioned in the article for reference. Recommend other locations be added as they can be found. Coordinates are on article pages. Input the coordinates as seen below. Note I used the coordinates on this article for Kaufering III. —Ed!^(talk) 20:29, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Kaufering III

Kaufering VIII

class=notpageimage|

Kaufering concentration camp complex

Hurlach

Kaufering

Landsberg

Turkheim

class=notpageimage|

Kaufering concentration camp complex

Hmm, I'm not sure how reliable this information is and I wouldn't assume that the coordinates listed here are for Kaufering III. (The dewiki articles have the same coordinates for Kaufering IV and Kaufering VI.) The second map is what I get when I enter the location of the nearby towns mentioned in the article. I just don't think there's enough space to plot anything useful on the Bavaria map. buidhe 21:04, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Eh, I think you're right. But I will say that the article would be strongly enhanced with a map and would definitely prefer that direction at ACR or above. But as-is, I think this is as much as can be done at the moment. Based on all of my comments being addressed, going to Pass the GAN now. Thanks for your work on it! —Ed!^(talk) 02:51, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Wording

In the article it says "but none were produced at the camps before the United States Army liberated the area.". Does it make sense to talk about the area being liberated? It was a part of Germany, surely it doesn't make sense to call it being liberated, that implies the territory was occupied by Nazi Germany which certainly wasn't the case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2404:7A80:8C80:9000:CDD4:3003:E594:65FA (talk) 06:13, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I understand that liberate is often taken to mean deposing an illegitimately controlled territory, but in essence, the word means "to set free from imprisonment, slavery, or oppression." So I think that even territories indisputably part of Germany can be "liberated" since the people within them were oppressed, especially in the context of a concentration camp. Ypna (talk) 12:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

New website about "Kaufering concentration camp complex ": www.landsberg-kaufering-erinnern.de/en

Here you'll find much information: www.landsberg-kaufering-erinnern.de/en, all in english, too. There seems to be no author, responsible are the cities of Landsberg and Kaufering. The numbers of prisoners and deaths there are not the known of the science, but lower. And the name isn't the name of the science or history, but "Landsberg/Kaufering" – maybe that's political. The other facts seem to be okay, many facts new published on internet, some references, too. Maybe most of the informations are from the Dachau Concentration Camp Memorial Site, but we don't know. Maps and references are helpful. For information, you should click on the "index" on the top, then you'll see a large list of articles. Treck08 (talk) 18:40, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I've added it to the external links, but I would avoid citing it in this article. Especially for this topic highly credible sources such as peer-reviewed articles and books are preferred. (t · c) buidhe 19:43, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

In the meantime I've seen you are absolutely right. At some of the informations there are avoidable mistakes, false quotations, e.g. the mass graves at Kaufering-Nord & -Süd (missing ″each″), or the false quotation of the inscription on the monument at Kaufering-Süd (missing ″Davids Stern″, and original it's german, not hebrew). Such mistakes are absolutely avoidable. So, it's for a first impression, for some pictures, some new aspects, only a base for further reading. The mistakes are the same in the english and the german version, I don't know how many there are. Maybe that's the reason, why they don't name an author. But it's the best website of the german government for this topic. --Treck08 (talk) 15:44, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Schwangerenkommando

"A group of seven Hungarian Jewish women, known as the "Schwangerenkommando" (pregnancy unit), who had conceived before their deportation to Auschwitz, was allowed to remain alive and bear their children."

This absurd fact is mentioned in the article but not further explained, as though it were an ordinary detail. It is a stark contradiction to allow Jewish births in a system designed to eliminate Jews, and surely this was not standard practice. Judging by the liberation photograph, they were not emaciated either. It leaves the reader curious – why was this allowed? Ypna (talk) 11:30, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Ypna I don't know, it may say more in the cited source. The ushmm encyclopedia is free access. (t · c) buidhe 20:53, 13 December 2022 (UTC)