Talk:Kenneth MacMillan

Overhaul

As promised at October's Wiki-bash at the ROH I have overhauled the MacMillan article. Comments and amendments invited from everyone, and in particular I take the liberty of pinging @Rachel Beaumont: and @Edwardx:. Among the changes I have made is the deletion of the info-box, which didn't seem to me to add much, and rather cluttered up the lead: pray consider if this is OK. Also, I think (see, e.g., John Gielgud and John Gielgud, roles and awards) we might usefully hive off the list of MacMillan ballets into a separate linked article, but, again, guidance and comments on this will be most welcome. Tim riley talk 17:31, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Excellent work! Yes, I agree that the infobox did not add anything and simply cluttered up the LEAD section. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Informal review

An excellent piece of work which had me grasping at nits to pick. Here are my suggestions/recommendations:

Lead

I would reorder the first paragraph so that his major claim to distinction – his work with the Royal Ballet – is mentioned first. A suggestion:

Sir Kenneth MacMillan (11 December 1929 – 29 October 1992) was a British ballet dancer and choreographer who was artistic director of the Royal Ballet in London between 1970 and 1977, and its principal choreographer from 1977 until his death. Earlier he had served as director of ballet for the Deutsche Oper in Berlin. He was also associate director of the American Ballet Theatre from 1984 to 1989, and artistic associate of the Houston Ballet from 1989 to 1992.

Early years

• "After attending a local infants' school, Kenneth studied from 1940 at Great Yarmouth grammar school" – in my day, there was a step between infant and grammar school (unless he was preternaturally bright of course)

Dancer

• "In 1946 while still a student MacMillan appeared..." There probably is a case for a little more punc here.
• "At first he was an extra, and later he was promoted to a small dancing role". I'm not sure what extras do in ballet companies, but it sounds from your wording that they don't dance. Is that the case?
• I imagine that the "little theatre" in Henley was the New Theatre (I lived for 15 or so years in Henley and knew it well). Does the source name the theatre?
  • Later: having got to my shelves I find it was called Kenton's Theatre. No connexion with Stan, in the line below this. Tim riley talk 16:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
• "the first was danced to jazz by Stan Kenton" – some slightly amusing ambiguity here; perhaps to jazz "composed by" or "performed by" Mr Kenton?

Choreographer

• Punc: I query the comma after "dramatic ballerina"
• "The previous year, Webster and the Covent Garden board turned down MacMillan's proposal..." The phrasing has an American feel, and there is a tense issue. I would say, "In the previous year, Webster and the Covent Garden board had turned down MacMillan's proposal..." For consideration.
• Slightly awkward close repetition of "the piece" in the final paragraph. (What would Mahler have thought, I wonder?)

Berlin, 1966–69

• The words "than the opera" in the third line may be dispensed with.
• "limited him in everyday life in general" → "limited him generally in everyday life" - possibly neater
• "For his new company..." → "For the Deutsche Oper ballet..." It was not his "new company" for for all these productions. I also wonder whether it's necessary to name them all here, given the copious lists that follow the text.
  • Done the first bit; I'll stick with the list here, I think, as it's only a handful. Tim riley talk 17:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Royal Ballet director 1970–77

• He didn't really "secure" the joint directorship of Davis and Hall, since Hall bunked off. Perhaps say he "arranged" Davis & Hall and "secured" MacMillan & Field – the latter did at least operate for a while.
• Maybe mention when Cranko died.
• "At the age of 42, MacMillan, hitherto unmarried, and enigmatic about his personal life, married the 26-year-old Australian painter Deborah Williams." Four commas in one shortish sentence. Personally I'd zap those after "42" and "unmarried". Or perhaps rearrange the sentence that doesn't invite quite so many

Royal Ballet principal choreographer 1977–92

• No comments on this section which rounds off his career beautifully. Nothing on the Honours and awards section either, except for the title – no memorials included.

A quick glance at the citations reveals that no. 36 requires a pp. I'm not sure what constitutes a Good Article these days, but I'd be surprised if this fell far short. I wish you success wherever you decide to take it. Brianboulton (talk) 17:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Brian, thank you so much. Exactly what I was hoping for. I chuckled at what you rightly say about my surreal drafting in re Stan Kenton. I'll enjoy working through these points over the next few days, and will ponder what you say about GAs. As a ballet ignoramus (only ever seen two MacMillan works) I have no yardstick in re GAN for a dance article, but I have a good idea which ballet-savvy editor to consult about this in due course. Meanwhile, grateful thanks for your review. Tim riley talk 17:52, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

All these points now acted on, except for checking the Henley theatre, which I'll do when I have access to my bookshelves. Many thanks to Brian for these excellent suggestions. Tim riley talk 12:51, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Henley theatre now checked and linked. Tim riley talk 16:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Citations

I think this article would benefit form using the sfn type formatting. But if the present company disagrees, I will defer to your desires. Let me know. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I collaborate from time to time with colleagues who use the SFN technique. I can't get the hang of it at all, and if you have time and patience to explain to me how it works, why it helps, and how to code it I shall be hugely in your debt. I don't say I'll necessarily be a convert, but at least I'll understand it at last! Tim riley talk 22:19, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Basically, the books have to be put into a reference template. The template must include the author's last name, the year and the statement "|ref=harv" then instead of using reference names you put in <no wiki> </nowiki> template looks like: sfn|author last name|year|page(s)=. I would be happy to do it. I don' want to get into a territorial dispute, as some editors like using reference names. The sfn will handle all that. Let me do a small portion, and you can see whether its something that you are into. Doing all these citations is labor intensive, and I have had some editors on other articles who just revert it all. I am not interested in putting in a lot of effort only to have it reverted at one crack. So I would respectfully suggest we do an increment, and you can then render your opinion. But this is no pressure, as there are lots of other places I can do this where it might be welcomed. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to watch the progress of the GAN I have just agreed to put up, and then maybe return to the SFN question after that? It might be a bit too much to deal with both at the same time. Tim riley talk 22:53, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I could do one source, and you can just undo it. Or decide to go forward with the citations. No large deal that. I think that having them in place will make it tidier for the GA. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I did the Thorpe book. Click on the blue links. Undo the edit if you will. Let me know if I can help whenever. Happy editing. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:11, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kenneth MacMillan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Seattle (talk · contribs) 02:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I will review this soon. Seattle (talk) 02:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Comments

• Top hatnote redirects to just Kenneth McMillan, without the "disambiguation" in its title
  • Done Tim riley talk
• First ref in ref 24 needs a subscription required, as does ref 16
  • Done Tim riley talk 17:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
• In both tables, titles that start with articles should be sorted by the next non-article word (i.e The Prince of the Pagodas should sort as "Prince of the Pagodas, The").
  • I've removed the sortability throughout. A plain table will do very well for GA purposes, and we are in any case considering hiving the lists off to their own page, as we did for e.g. the FA John Gielgud and FL John Gielgud, roles and awards. All the points you mention about the sorting labels will, of course, be attended to then. Ought I in the circumstances remove the duplicate links within the tables, do you think? Tim riley talk 17:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

• I think you ought not do that. If you're going to split it, which I wouldn't recommend because I don't think it's long enough (the sheer number of MacMillan's works certainly pale to Gielgud's, and MacMillan's page is only 3030 words compared to Gielgud's 8460), then you would have to re-link the terms later if you wanted to take it to featured list status, like Gielgud's page. I'm not opposed to removing the sortability for a GA, but for featured list status, if you made the split, you should re-add the sortability for the "Title", "Year", "Company", "Composer", and "Designer" columns. If you leave the list in the article, which I recommend, I would re-add the sortability before making it a featured article candidate. Seattle (talk) 00:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• I shall follow your advice, which seems to me very wise. Tim riley talk 17:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• In both tables, the designers in both tables should sort by last name, not first.
  • As above Tim riley talk
• Fantasia in C minor has an ndash in the "company" column, while The Judas Tree does not.
  • A hideous oversight on my part. The Judas Tree was made for the Royal Ballet, and I have repaired the omission. Tim riley talk 17:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
• Tables could use !scope="row" tags; see MOS:ACCESS for more information. I can format an example if you want.
  • I should be most grateful, as I couldn't make head or tail of the MOS:ACCESS instructions. Tim riley talk 17:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Sure. Added here; just follow that for the two tables. Copy and paste the "!scope="row"" for the work's title. You're a quick cat, you'll get it. Seattle (talk) 00:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
      • Done. Very glad to run across this feature, and v. grateful. Tim riley talk 17:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
• I don't think the "Principal performers" section should be sortable; there are too many "Principal performers" for the section to be measurable by any metric
  • As above. Tim riley talk 17:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
• File:Kenneth MacMillan.jpg: Source is dead
  • Does that mean I should find another image? I'm not in the least wedded to this one. Tim riley talk 17:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
    • No, I've found a different source for the fair use file at Krugosvet [1] and archived it at archive.org. I also updated the URL for the file's source. If you know anyone who can speak Russian, it would be great for a source check to see if there's any information from it that's not in our article. Seattle (talk) 00:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
      • That is most kind of you, and am I much indebted. Tim riley talk 22:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
• I can't find the image in the source listed for File:Margot Fonteyn - 1960s.jpg, but you could just list the brochure from the first photo as the source and omit the URL.
  • I'm not quite clear what you suggest here. Tim riley talk 17:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

• That's fine. Go to the middle-left of the old file. Remove the URL from the information template for the file at the Commons, and cite the pamphlet (with the textual information starting at "S. Hurok Presents") from the photo as the source for the file. That should be fine for the source. Seattle (talk) 00:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• Other files look good.

@Tim riley: OK, some replies. Seattle (talk) 00:07, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

All text suggestions now attended to, I think. I'll go and edit the Fonteyn image page as you suggest. Tim riley talk 17:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

And now done. Tim riley talk 22:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I will start the text review soon. Seattle (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it will be of any help in your review, but a Wikicolleague kindly gave the article an informal review here, on the talk page in advance of this GA nomination. Tim riley talk 22:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, that was important so that I knew MacMillan's was written in British English. Thank you. Seattle (talk) 10:47, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Introduction

• After being accepted by Ninette de Valois as a student and then a member of the Sadler's Wells Ballet in the late 1940s, MacMillan built a successful career as a dancer, but, plagued by stage fright, he abandoned it while still in his twenties. can you break this into two sentences? Chronologically, it seems like it spans a lengthy amount of time for one sentence. Also, accepted by Ninette de Valois as a student might be better as "accepted as a student by Ninette de Valois". A clause on who de Valois was and what she accomplished might also be worth a mention.
  • Done. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• After this his work was entirely as a choreographer this might be British English, but could you just cut the passive and rephrase to "After this he worked entirely as a choreographer"?
  • Done. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• Two "afters" in a row doesn't sound the best, but that could be resolved with a break in sentences above
  • Done. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Early years

• who was a labourer and sometime cook Might be British English, but "sometime cook" reads awkwardly to me. I think it comes from "sometime cook"'s use as a position parallel to labourer.
  • Redrawn. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• The grammar school returned to Great Yarmouth in 1944, and MacMillan found a new ballet teacher there. This was Phyllis Adams, with whose help MacMillan, aged fifteen, secured admission to the Sadler's Wells Ballet School (later the Royal Ballet School). This reads awkwardly to me; does "MacMillan found Phyllis Adams, a new ballet teacher, when the grammar school returned to Great Yarmouth in 1944; with Adams' help, MacMillan, aged fifteen, secured admission to the Sadler's Wells Ballet School (later the Royal Ballet School)." work?
  • Redrawn, not quite as you suggest but on those lines. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Dancer

• In April 1946 MacMillan was a founder member, and quickly made progress, being cast by de Valois' principal choreographer, Frederick Ashton, in a leading role in a new ballet, Valses nobles et sentimentales, in October 1946. Too many clauses. When you rephrase, can you switch the "principal choreographer" clause with Ashton, so that he's the main focus? I ask because Ashton's mentioned below as well.
  • Done. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• In April 1946 MacMillan was a founder member, What's a "founder member"?
  • I have seen this in AmEng articles as "founding member", but that isn't idiomatic in BrEng. I'll stick with this, I think. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• music by Frank Martin. I think the ambiguous phrasing Brianboulton highlighted above can apply here as well.
  • Yes indeed! (Dear me! How one fails to spot ambiguities in one's own prose!) Amended, and thank you. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

• The Times commented → "A writer for The Times commented". Seattle (talk) 10:47, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Ah, well in those days The Times maintained a policy of a single editorial and journalistic voice. Articles were unsigned, and "The Times said..." is exactly what an English reader would expect to see. No longer true, as Times articles have been signed since the 1960s. I'll leave as drawn, I think. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Excellent suggestions so far. I look forward to more, and am grateful for the thoroughness of your review. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Choreographer

• Could you provide some (perhaps a half-sentence) context on The Rite of Spring's plot, so that the reception could be better contextualized?
  • Done. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• who was his muse This sounds idiomatic?
  • Yes, I think so, definitely, and is the word used by several of the sources. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
    • The MOS recommends to avoid idioms; do reword. Seattle (talk) 21:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
      • This is so frequently used in the sources that I think I'll stick with it. I think we must be using the word "idiomatic" in two different and incompatible ways. Perhaps it means something different where you are, but as an English writer I believe that all good writing should be idiomatic, that is to say "Adhering to the manner of expression considered natural to or distinctive of a language" (Oxford English Dictionary). The phrasing I use here is entirely so, me judice. Tim riley talk 22:03, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
        • Yes, thanks for the clarification. I'm using idiom to mean a "special mode of expression, use or grouping of words, peculiar to a specific language". I see Wiktionary defines "muse" as a source of inspiration, and makes no mention of an idiomatic use, so that's fine. I wasn't familiar with the word... Seattle (talk) 00:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Tim riley talk 22:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Das Lied von der Erde (The Song of the Earth) Use {{lang-en|''The Song of the Earth''}} for the translation, and use italicize it as well, as The Song of the Earth is used later in italics.
  • Not entirely convinced about the italics, but I've done as you suggest. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Berlin, 1966–69

• He smoked and drank too much and suffered a minor stroke. "too much" seems subjective and imprecise; can you rework this?
  • Done. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Some other information I found, of possible use (but certainly worth a review for comprehensiveness): [2] (p. 81), which describes his relationship with Dutilleux and Métaboles. MacMillan's gala on 23 November 1978 was "the first time a British choreographer was honored with a gala focusing on his work at the [Paris] Opéra"). [3] lists Crisp's reviews of MacMillan's works.
  • These are all covered in Jann Parry's wonderful (and huge) book about MacMillan, but in filtering all the sources down to the essentials I haven't thought it appropriate to include them. Truth to tell, even if (per impossibile) I were to take this to FAC I'm not sure how much of them I'd be inclined to use. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Royal Ballet: director 1970–77

• Can you clarify why Ashton was prodded to retirement? This isn't clear from the text.
  • I think it's pretty clear from the second sentence of the first para. Webster decided that when he went there would be a complete change of management of both the ROH companies. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• It was widely known that Ashton had been eased out "Eased out" is idiomatic; can you clarify what exactly happened?
  • Ashton had been saying for some time that he longed to retire, and was not best pleased when Webster took him at his word. Webster mismanaged the matter, announcing Ashton's retirement without adequate consultation with Ashton himself. I have set this out at greater length in Ashton's article, but I don't think it would be appropriate here. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
    • "Eased out" is still idiomatic; can you rework? Seattle (talk) 21:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
      • I think "eased out" is wholly idiomatic in the OED sense, and I think I'll stick with it. Tim riley talk 22:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
        • No, I think that "ease out" is idiomatic in my (The Little & Ives Webster Dictionary) above-defined sense. The American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms lists "ease out" as an idiom, which falls into line with my (The Little & Ives Webster Dictionary) definition. I would prefer a rework here. Seattle (talk) 00:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
          • Done, but I am not very happy about it. The revised text is too black-and-white, to my mind, where the original version conveys a subtler meaning. Tim riley talk 20:39, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
• to which MacMillan and Field were party, What does this mean? Is this British English, idiomatic, or simply my ignorance?
  • It means they consented to it (though they were given little choice) and were party to it in the legal sense: see Groucho and Chico: the party of the first part etc... It's perfectly normal English usage, and entirely idiomatic, but I'd be happy to entertain alternative wording if you like to suggest it. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
    • The MOS suggests to avoid idioms; I would just replace "were party" with "contested" and remove the "to". Seattle (talk) 21:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
      • That wouldn't be quite precise. Not only did they consent to it, they were, well, party to it. That is, they signed up to it and were therefore bound by collective responsibility to it even though they had frankly been Shanghaied into it. Tim riley talk 22:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
        • OK. Seattle (talk) 00:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Royal Ballet: principal choreographer 1977–92

• Can you link "avant garde" somewhere?
  • Surely not? I doubt that anyone reading this article will struggle with that everyday term. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• familiar to Covent Garden audiences from Berg's 1925 opera Wozzeck is this opera performed continually? Why should they be familiar with a work performed in 1925? Is this an idiom?
  • The opera is a repertoire piece and has been frequently revived in opera houses all over the world since its premiere in 1925. Apart from the late operas of Richard Strauss and all the operas of Britten it is, I suppose, one of the last operas to enter the regular operatic repertory. Heavy going, though, with not many laughs or tunes. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Royal Ballet: principal choreographer 1977–92

• Despite a serious heart attack in 1988 MacMillan continued to work intensely#
  • Not sure what your question is here. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
    • My apologies. I wanted a citation for this; it doesn't appear to be directly cited. Seattle (talk) 21:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
      • Good point. Now added. Tim riley talk 22:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• The original 1956 Cranko version had been judged unsatisfactory by whom?
  • Redrawn Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Along with the former Bolshoi principal dancer, Irek Mukhamedov, Is the first comma necessary here?
  • It certainly isn't. It's a non-defining phrase. Comma now blitzed – thank you! Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• MacMillan died from a heart attack, backstage at the Royal Opera House, during a performance of Mayerling. I don't think this should be a clause, given that the main statement of the next sentence uses the clause as pretense to its main subject.
  • I see what you mean, but I have looked hard and long at this since reading your comment, and I am at a loss to reword it smoothly. Have you any thoughts?
    • Remove both commas? Possibly just remove the first comma? Seattle (talk) 21:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
      • Fine. I'll give that a go. Tim riley talk 22:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

• Bussell was MacMillan's final important muse The MOS recommends to avoid idioms.
  • As above. Tim riley talk 22:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
    • See above. Seattle (talk) 00:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Honours and awards

• The links to "Olivier Award" and "Tony Award" are Easter Eggs (I expected links to the general page for the awards, and was about to ask if you could link to the specific awards); can you link the entire phrase, and capitalize their respective titles as well? Seattle (talk) 09:53, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Done. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Passing as a good article. It's close to featured status– do consider listing it there as well. Seattle (talk) 21:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your exceptionally thorough review, and also for your kind suggestion in re FAC. I think GA is about right for the article as it stands, but I'll certainly bear in mind your encouraging thought about FAC. Meanwhile, reciprocating, if I can review any GAN candidate of your choice it will be my pleasure to do so. Tim riley talk 21:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150303113343/http://www.kennethmacmillan.com/ballets/all-works/1977-1992/different-drummer.html to http://www.kennethmacmillan.com/ballets/all-works/1977-1992/different-drummer.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150303115055/http://www.kennethmacmillan.com/ballets/all-works/1977-1992/the-judas-tree.html to http://www.kennethmacmillan.com/ballets/all-works/1977-1992/the-judas-tree.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150215070413/http://kennethmacmillan.com/ballets/all-works.html to http://www.kennethmacmillan.com/ballets/all-works.html

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Wife and daughter

I believe information about his wife and daughter should be included. Mrs. MacMillan controls his work. Also, his death was very traumatic.

Update: Actually, Dec. 2011 version include a bit of this information and bio. material with the photo which was deleted. I think it should be restored.Lmlmss44 (talk) 18:53, 26 December 2018 (UTC)