Talk:Kenora Thistles/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Sportsfan77777 (talk · contribs) 19:19, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

I plan on reviewing this article some time this week. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:19, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

@Kaiser matias: My first comment is... Does the Cup defense in March 1907 against Brandon for the league title count as a fifth challenge for the cup? It is listed at the bottom, but the lead and the way the section headers are structured seem to suggest otherwise.

I'll have to take a look at my sources, which is going to take a few days. Just in the middle of moving across the country. And just a heads up, I wasn't pinged here, I think it's because the "K" needs to be capitalized. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:00, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Okay, I'll hold off for awhile then. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 04:07, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

(outdent) Back and ready for your comments, and clarified the fifth challenge series. Kaiser matias (talk) 14:35, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Here are the rest of my comments:

Lead

• (the town changed [add "its name" here] to Kenora in 1905)
• and competed for the Stanley Cup four times, in 1903, 1905, and 1907, winning it in January 1907 before subsequently losing that March, and disbanded in 1908. ===> and competed for the Stanley Cup five times across 1903, 1905, and 1907. They won the Cup in January 1907 and defended it that March before subsequently losing it later that month. They disbanded a year later. (break up into a few sentences)
• Though the city of Kenora is in Ontario, the proximity of the city to the province of Manitoba meant that the Thistles competed in Manitoba-based leagues throughout its existence. ==> Though the city of Kenora is in Ontario, the Thistles competed in Manitoba-based leagues throughout its existence because of the city's proximity to the province of Manitoba. ("meant" doesn't sound right here.)
• They joined the Manitoba Hockey Association and played in that league, consistently winning the league championship. ===>>> They joined the Manitoba Hockey Association (MHA) in 1902 and consistently won the MHA championship in three of their six seasons in the league.
• Idealized during their existence "as a team of hometown boys who used to play shinny together on the streets of Rat Portage," <<<==== A quote in the lead should be cited.
• which combined with economic downturn in 1907 meant the team was unable to sustain its success, and disbanded in 1908. ===>> Combined with economic downturn in 1907, the team was unable to sustain its success and disbanded in 1908. (split this into a separate sentence)
• In the infobox, they played in the MHA, not the MPHL, right? (which was the name at the time?)

This section all addressed. Kaiser matias (talk) 16:02, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Early years

• However the close closer proximity to Winnipeg
• This was replaced in 1897 by the Victoria Rink, which had many more seats (1,000), and a larger ice surface. <<<==== Does this mean the Princess Rink wasn't regulation size? Did they have regulation sizes back then?

There was no real standard, no; not sure how to best convey that, if at all. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:20, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• A club was formed in 1894 and held a contest for the name ===>>> A club was formed in 1894 and a contest was held for the name (parallelism)
• I doubt this is known, but do you know why Thistles was chosen?

Can't say for sure, but would guess there may have been a significant amount of residents with Scottish heritage there. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:20, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Why did Bill Dunsmore choose the name? (Or was he the one that proposed the name, and someone else chose it?)
• In March 1894 the team hosted a benefit concert to raise funds; it provided proved to be a success
• due to their close closer proximity to the teams in that league
• In January 1896 an important match as was held
• and held hold major roles on the Thistles
• as they felt if the games were not competitive people would not come watch the games ====>>> as they felt if the games were not competitive people would not come watch the games them
• the Victorias and the Winnipeg Rowing Club (abbreviate both or neither)

I see what you mean, but the teams were named (both at the time, and in the sources used) like that. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:20, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Clarify that the Winnipeg clubs left before the start of the 1903–04 season.

Everything here done. Couple notes above as well to consider. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:20, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Stanley Cup Challenges 1903 and 1905

1903

• from other team ===>>> from other teams
• Initially it was only won by teams from Montreal, Winnipeg, and Ottawa, who held the Cup nearly continuously from 1893, when it was first awarded, until 1912, though teams from other cities had played for the Cup. <<<<==== This sentence is not so clear. It sounds like Ottawa held the Cup the whole time. I would say "These three cities held the Cup nearly continuously...". Also, I would specify which other cities challenged during that period and how many challenges they had in total. (I feel like that part is misleading as is, as I don't see too many Challenges from other cities.)

Reworded it and dropped the note about other cities; it really doesn't add that much, nor does removing it hurt the overall message I think. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Along with the series coinciding with an opening session of the Canadian Parliament, which was a social affair at the time, meant that the attendance for the games was rather low ===> The attendance for the games was rather low due to the series coinciding with an opening session of the Canadian Parliament, which was a social affair at the time
• For the 1903-04 season (wrong dash)
• However prior to the start of the season the team was invited to join the Western Canada Hockey League, which only consisted of the two Winnipeg clubs; while they had downplayed the Thistles importance previously, they were impressed by the Thistles play during the Stanley Cup challenge, and considered it financially viable to add the team, though the Thistles ultimately remained in the Manitoba league. <<<=== Break this up into at least two sentences.

This section all addressed. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

1905

• with the addition of Phillips
• who had returned to the town for his dying father, and goaltender Eddie Giroux; the only player not from Rat Portage <<<==== The semi-colon should be after father. Otherwise it sounds like Phillips returned for both his father and Eddie Giroux. The second semi-colon should probably just be the start of another sentence.
• At the time forward passing was forbidden in ice hockey <<<=== This is important. It should be in the prose, rather than in a footnote.

Addressed this part. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Stanley Cup Challenges 1907

League play

• At the end of this section, it's not clear that you are discussing the format for the MHA regular season. Even though this took place before the January 1907 challenge, I think it would be better if you grouped it with the March 1907 challenge --- since that is the challenge linked to this regular season.

Tried to move things around, let me know if it makes sense still.

I moved most of what was the last paragraph here back to this section. However, I left the "As champions of the Manitoba league in 1906,..." sentence with the January 1907 challenge, and instead mentioned the challenge at the very beginning when it states they won the championship. I think something like that makes the most sense. Let me know if you disagree. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 21:42, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

January

• Though this series determined who would play the Wanderers for the Cup

March

• As stated above, add the regular season issues here.

Hopefully addressed things here. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:49, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Demise of the Thistles

• Did the hypothetical rink plan to hold 4000 or 5000?
• restate who Wong is

Done Kaiser matias (talk)

Legacy

• The Thistles two months ===> The Thistles' two months
• the nickname Thistle ===> the nickname Thistles
• get rid of "currently" at the end (see WP:RELTIME)

Done. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:56, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Challenge Results

• Results shouldn't be capital in the title
• Can you cite these results? It can be just one list of all of the Challenge results, if that is possible to find.

I probably can, just need to get hold of the book. Give me a day or two. Kaiser matias (talk)

Overall

• I don't like that the Stanley Cup Challenge sections also talk about the league. I think it would be better if the middle sections were instead called "Admission to Manitoba Hockey Association (1902–05)" and "Winning the Stanley Cup (1905–07)" with only the sub-section headers making note of the specific Challenges.
• Related to that, I think you should either (1) create sub-section headers for the other league play sub-sections (like the 1905–07 one) or (2) combine the league play sub-sections into the appropriate Challenge sub-sections (the same way the 2017–18 NHL season would be combined with the 2017–18 NHL playoffs today).

I've tried something about this, but am not sure of it. Let me know what you think. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:16, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

• Overall, I think the article is pretty well-written with rich detail about the team and their history that goes well-beyond listing their results.
• All of the links work.
• Looks like everything is sourced.
• No plagiarism detected.

The only major comment is with the layout (related to the section titles, and grouping the seasons better with the corresponding challenges). Everything else is minor.

Placing on hold. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:23, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Great, should have everything done shortly. Kaiser matias (talk) 15:59, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

@Sportsfan77777:: Almost all of it is done, just need to get a source for the results of the challenge series, and the subdivisions. Other than that should be good. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:16, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

@Kaiser matias: Okay, looks much better. I made some further changes that are mostly copyediting except for one paragraph move: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kenora_Thistles&type=revision&diff=857765685&oldid=857746868

I wanted to check: After the Thistles and the two other two teams joined the MHA in 1902, the two Winnipeg teams (the only two teams in the league) both immediately left to form their own league? Meaning that the two Winnipeg teams essentially just changed the name of their league, while the Thistles and the other two teams just formed a new league that had the same name as the old Manitoba one? Is that accurate? That seems strange.

Other than that, very close to passing. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 21:55, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Great, just give me a day or two for that book (it is online, but I much prefer a physical book as a source). And regarding your question about the league, yeah that's pretty much what happened; early 1900s hockey was a weird time, what else can be said. I'll let you know when I get the last touches done. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:56, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Okay, I'll just pass it then. Feel free to add that source later. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 23:16, 2 September 2018 (UTC)