Talk:Kermac Macmaghan

Connection to Clan Mackenzie

The purported connection of Kenneth Matheson - Coinnich Mhic Mathghamna in MS1467 - with Clan Mackenzie is incorrect. MS1467, which contains the 15th century genealogies showing Kenneth Matheson to be the eponym of the Mathesons, also contains a Mackenzie genealogy. This indicates that the Mackenzies descend from Gilleoin of the Aird - gilla eoin na haird in MS1467 - who appears to have lived roughly 100 years before Kenneth Matheson. The Matheson genealogy in MS1467 contains Kenneth Matheson; the Mackenzie genealogy does not. The genealogies contained in the Black Book of Clanranald indicate that both clans descend from Gilleoin of the Aird, the Mackenzies through an elder son Gilleoin Og and the Mathesons through a younger son Cristin. Kenneth Matheson is Gilleoin of the Aird's great great-grandson and therefore third cousin to the contemporary Mackenzie chief listed in MS1467 - Angus.

The confusion arose due to an interpretation of the MS1467 genealogies by the Reverend William Matheson (Traditions of the Mackenzies. Transactions of the Gaelic Society of Inverness, vol XXXIX/XL, p193). It is unclear why Matheson chose to ignore parts of MS1467 to reach his conclusion that Kenneth Matheson was the progenitor of both clans. It is possible that he was relying on an incorrect transcription rather than the original (now available on-line), or he may have had other aims in mind. In any case, as he uses much of the second half of his paper trying to ascribe both clans to the Dark Age tribe of Gabrian on the basis of the dietary preferences of a 17th century chief, perhaps his conclusions should be treated with caution.

Sadly this misinformation is now widely repeated. A more logical analysis, along the lines I have described above, is given by David Sellar, Lord Lyon King of Arms from 2008 to 2014, in his paper "Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making and Pedigree Faking" (L. MacLean, Ed. The Middle Ages in the Highlands, Inverness, 1981). Ian Macken (talk) 12:13, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Listen, lets just get this sorted before any trouble starts. Non of the Wikipedia articles are saying that the Clan Mackenzie chiefs are definitely descended from Kermac Macmaghan. They are just stating it as possibility based on previous sources and histories of the clan. Wikipedia is about reflecting the sources.QuintusPetillius (talk) 20:17, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Not trying to start trouble; just pointing out an inaccuracy due to a flawed analysis (in that the primary source, MS1467, does not support the secondary source, Matheson's paper), and that a more reliable source is available - Sellar, David. (1981). Highland Family Origins - Pedigree Making and Pedigree Faking, in The Middle Ages in the Highlands. Inverness Field Club. pp. 103 - 116. This is already reference 13 on the Clan Mackenzie page.

"Fifteenth-century pedigrees concerning Clan Matheson (Clann Mhic Mhathain) and Clan Mackenzie (Clann Choinnich) appear to indicate that Kermac is identical to a certain Coinneach mac Mathghamhna, ancestor of both these clans." I read that to say Kermac appears to be Coinnich who is the ancestor of both clans. The first half of that statement is correct, the second half not. The reasoning is:

- The only 15th century Mackenzie and Matheson pedigrees available are those contained in MS1467.

- The Matheson pedigree in MS1467 contains Coinneach mac Mathghamhna; the Mackenzie pedigree does not.

- Therefore the pedigrees do not indicate that Coinneach is an ancestor of clan Mackenzie

Ian Macken (talk) 21:20, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for making note of Sellar. I don't have access to that source, but from reading your comments it's clear that he has interpreted the pedigrees differently than Matheson. I don't think there's any confusion, it's just that there is apparently some imbalance (until now we haven't taken into account Sellar's interpretation because we weren't aware of it). It would seem that we've got to reword a few things to make sure the article relates to the reader that there is uncertainty in specific regard to a connection with the Mackenzies.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 01:44, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Brianann, good luck. The Middle Ages in the Highlands, edited by Loraine Maclean, is a small blue paperback. It may be available in some libraries, but unfortunately it is poorly bound and my copy at least is falling apart. I can't imagine that a library copy would have survived the last 35 years without some repairs. I got my copy from a well known on-line book seller many years ago, so that may be your best bet. Ian Macken (talk) 05:24, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Hey, no worries, maybe I was a bit to quick, we have had some serious problem editors on these subjects in the past. I understand the point made by Ian Maken and we could use Sellar as a source to make the article(s) more accurate.QuintusPetillius (talk) 09:04, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I've reworked the article a bit. Some of Sellar's chapter is on Google Books in snippet form - which isn't much but is better than nothing.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:10, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

When is Kermac from Coinneach?

I am not phonologist, however Kermac seems closer to Ciarmac than Coinneach. Of course the original manuscript "Codex Frisianus" has "Jarlin af Ros ok Kiarnakr sun Makamals [also: Machamals], ok aðrir Skotar", which is "Earl of Ross and Kiarnakr son Machamals and other Scots". If Kormakfr is Cormac and Melkolfr is Mael-Colum, then would Kiarnakr be Ciarnan?