Talk:Kh-47M2 Kinzhal

Propulsion

Engine type , propellant — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.6.208.30 (talk • contribs)

Accuracy Statistic

1m CEP is hugely unlikely even with terminal guidance, even 10m would be extremely impressive over a range of 2000km. Even short range laser guided rockets have a CEP of 1m over a range of a few km. ~

hypersonic

This was deleted by someone without providing a reason, and there are no existing discussions on this topic in the archive. The amount of credible sources I'm providing here is staggering. So I am reposting this.

I think it would make sense to remove a good portion of the 'hypersonic' mentions in this article. For example, phrases such as "hypersonic ballistic missile", as this article says in the opening, are semantically redundant, and are similar to saying "fruit apple" or "wooden tree". The only reason this ever became accepted language is due to russian propaganda falsely advertising this weapon system as something it is not. So we either update all articles about ballistic missiles to have 'hypersonic' littered throughout them, or we prune it from here. There are many articles from reliable sources on this topic.

example: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a43804177/russias-kinzhal-missile-is-not-hypersonic/ Quote: "Sidharth Kaushal, Ph.D., of the U.K.-based defense think tank RUSI is similarly doubtful about the “hypersonic” label. “It doesn’t meet the maneuverability criteria for being a true hypersonic weapon,” he tells Popular Mechanics."

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/ukraine-and-the-kinzhal-dont-believe-the-hypersonic-hype/ Quote: "The term “hypersonic” is now typically used just to refer to two types of weapons that are being developed through contemporary defense programs: hypersonic glide vehicles (HGVs) and hypersonic cruise missiles (HCMs). The Kinzhal is neither, as it is an air-launched ballistic missile."

https://news.yahoo.com/russia-kinzhal-missile-not-hypersonic-224538598.html Quote: "The Kinzhal was never a truly hypersonic weapon – a supposedly advanced military technology that the United States and China spent years developing, but that has yielded minimal results."

https://www.businessinsider.com/patriot-kill-shot-impressive-russian-kinzhal-hypersonic-ballistic-missile-experts-2023-5 Quote: "The Kinzhal is not a "hypersonic" weapon, as Moscow often claims, which is to say the Kinzhal is not part of a new class of hard-to-kill missiles that exclusively includes highly maneuverable hypersonic glide vehicles and hypersonic cruise missiles able to maintain hypersonic speeds throughout most of the flight." https://interestingengineering.com/culture/russias-kinzhal-missile-not-hypersonic Quote: "If Kinzhal is dubbed hypersonic, then so are all ballistic missiles in the U.S. stockpile, and even SpaceX's Falcon 9 is a hypersonic rocket."

There are many such articles out there with experts weighing in that using the word "hypersonic" with this weapon is... not academically correct in the context of what experts agree a hypersonic weapon is. Binglederry (talk) 12:27, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this assessment. Instead of hypersonic air launched ballistic missile, I would remove the 'hypersonic' part and leave it as Air-launched ballistic missile Zenixtronix (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:DUE requires editors to make sure that all significant viewpoints are represented. Consequently, we must mention the disagreement between sources, and not simply chose the version that we like better. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:48, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The idea that a hypersonic weapon system must exhibit maneuverability or be of the cruise missile variety is not a viewpoint, it is a definition agreed upon by everyone in the field. I'm not familiar with all of wikipedia's rules, but I assume when it comes to scientific or engineering matters, certain viewpoints matter more than others.

In fact wikipedia's own hypersonic article says a hypersonic weapon (leaving out non weapons) must exhibit one of the following:

1. Hypersonic glide vehicle (HGV): missile warheads which maneuver and glide through the atmosphere at high speeds after an initial ballistic launch phase

2. Hypersonic cruise missile: cruise missiles which use air-breathing engines such as scramjets to reach high speeds

The Kinzhal exhibits none of these properties, and if you peruse the articles I linked above they say as much. So there's another inconsistency right on wikipedia. Binglederry (talk) 18:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

And I'll further add, I have nothing wrong with the article saying certain people claim the Kinzhal is hypersonic. I just disagree with authoritatively labeling it as such in the opening part of the article, with insane sentences like "It is the first hypersonic weapon used", when it clearly, by all definitions, is not. Binglederry (talk) 18:42, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree, in-the-field researchers mean maneuverable, not terminal velocity >M1. Russian propaganda is not a significant viewpoint in encyclopedic terms. Greglocock (talk) 20:25, 24 April 2024 (UTC)