Talk:Khaki

Germans not wearing khakis?

I was shocked when I read this site: [1]. ATTENTION GERMAN WIKIPEDIANS: do Germans really don't wear khakis? Please confirm. I had just posted on my blog if there is any Hitler or East German connection with khakis. This blogger might've looked like stupid when he wore his khakis one day. Chitetskoy (talk) 20:45, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about a random blogger. oknazevad (talk) 17:17, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Could be true. If I understand "khaki pants" correctly, I would say the combination of elegant, creased dress pants with such a light color is quite unusual in Germany. When I see those pants a picture of an old American man wearing a panama hat and a pink polo shirt springs to my mind immediately. Jeans on the other hand are not so uncommon in shades of brown/sandy/khaki. But note the comment below, which says there's no such thing as "khaki pants". There's chinos and those are not very common in Germany. Also people might just have been outraged at his socks and not his pants, as white socks have been a major fashion no-no in Germany for some decades. But I don't think any of this should go in the article, which is after all about the colour khaki. --BjKa (talk) 13:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Green in other Countries

I removed the sentence
In French, and German, for example, "khaki" refers to a much darker olive drab-style military green.
re German: I disagree. I have never heard "khaki" describe a shade of green in Germany. See also de:Khaki
re French: fr:Kaki (couleur) differentiates beween plain kaki and vert kaki ("green khaki"). Therefore kaki is predominantly not green in French.
--BjKa (talk) 13:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

used officially by British troops for the first time during the 1868 Expedition

"Khaki-colored uniforms were used officially by British troops for the first time during the 1868 Expedition to Abyssinia"

This statement is both misleading and erroneous on several counts.

1. Firstly the clothing worn by troops on the Abyssinia expedition may have been khaki by name but it was not khaki by colour as defined by this article- a point which reflects a more general flaw in this article.

Khakee as it often appeared for the first forty years of the term's use in English, referred to drab coloured clothing that ranged in shade from grey through brown to ochre or tan. The Corp of Guides on the Northwest frontier in the 1840s wore clothing that was referred to as being "a mud-colour" and their regimentally produced khaki uniforms remained a particular shade of brown for the next fifty years.

Khaki clothing was then first worn on a broad scale during the Indian Mutiny. It was both improvised and commercially produced, achieving a broad range of shades. As reported by an eye-witness: "This khakee, which before May 1857 was only seen across the Indus, was of a sort of grey drab, varying much in tint, but adopted by the Frontier troops for their hill fighting, being nearly of the colour of the desert, or the bare stony hills in these parts... it quickly became fashionable for everybody, which it has pretty well since remained. Almost every other regiment, (cavalry,artillery and infantry), Native and European turned out in the aforesaid khakee but it was of so many different shades- puce colour, slate colour, drab, &c, that a delightful variety was exhibited."

In the 1860s there were repeated references to khakee as 'gray or dust-coloured,' and the Indian Army troops sent on the expedition to Abyssinia wore white summer uniforms stained a shade of 'grey khakee,' while also carrying red serge frocks as a supplement for the cold nights of the Ethiopian highlands.

2. Secondly, the reference to khaki clothing being "used officially for the first time in Abyssinia" is incorrect and misleading. The stained khaki clothing worn in Ethiopia was not regulation although it was officially sanctioned. Moreover, there were only two HM infantry regiments on the expedition. As early as December 1857 during the Indian Mutiny, troops for India were to be provided with "one suit of drab-coloured India clothing" and in May 1858 it was ordered that "for the future the summer clothing of the European soldiers shall consist of two suits of 'khakee'." Problems with obtaining a consistent and wash fast colourant meant the first official use of khaki was abandoned in 1864. However, improvised staining of summer clothes on an ad hoc basis at regimental level continued until a fast mineral khaki dye was patented in 1884 and a satisfactory regulation khaki drill uniform was authorised for troops in India.

3. Continuing down this paragraph, the text jumps from Abyssinia to the so-called 'Mahdist wars', omitting the Afghan war of 1878-80 which was important for being the first large-scale campaign when all fighting troops were clothed in khaki of some form or another, although still provided at regimental level, and improvisesd in a number of ways, exhibiting a wide variety of styles, shades and cloth, and still supplemented by used of the scarlet frock for warmth. Importantly, however, the campaign saw the some use of centrally produced khaki clothing based on the white summer uniform.

This paragraph should be better re-drafted to more accurately reflect the process by which, from the 1850s to 1885 "The British Army adopted khaki for colonial campaign dress."

JF42 (talk) 15:32, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

If you've got sources, feel free to fix it. oknazevad (talk) 17:59, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

The statement in question is based on a misreading of the source cited for the statement ('Armies of the Raj,' Byron Farwell p.75). The cited passage, which is not entirely accurate, reads:

"This was the first major campaign in which some of the troops wore khaki, which had been officially introduced as approved working dress in 1861. Although approval was withdrawn in 1864, many troops, particularly those who had seen active service on the North-West Frontier, continued to dye their white drill uniforms with tea leaves or other substances. Khaki (“dusty”) was said to have been invented by Lieutenant (later Lieutenant-General) Harry Lumsden when, in December 1846, he founded the Corps of Guides."

Incidentally, this passage also highlights an error made earlier in the article in stating that the Corps of Guides was raised by Henry Lawrence. More correctly, the Guides were raised by Lieutenant Harry Lumsden in 1847, as proposed by Lawrence In December 1846. JF42 (talk) 15:50, 1 February 2022 (UTC)JF42 (talk)

How is the link to a color conversion tool a source for Khaki being a quinary color

I've removed the forst link (to an archived "Paint assistant" site. twice the first time without adequate explanation perhaps, but it's been added back in. I can't see how a colour conversion tool that converts from RYB to RGB is useful as evidence that Khaki is a quinary colour? Surely the link quinary color which lists Khaki does that job anyway? Verm the toaster (talk) 00:24, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Khaki is also green outside US

As the Cambridge dictionary says, in the UK khaki normally refers to what the US might call khaki green. I've added this back in. Searching for khaki clothes on UK sites will give predominately green results eg Asos. Australia and Canada use the British English green colour too so perhaps instead of the US / UK definitions is could be US / Commonwealth English

I've edited this page to show this but it's been reverted first saying "it needed to be better integrated with a proper comparison to olive" so I tried to make the introduction more integrated and it was summarily reverted with "Revert unsourced additions" - I'd referenced the Cambridge Dictionary and hoped that was a sufficiently acceptable source to show that it's a dark yellowish-green colour in the UK and pale yellow-brown color in the US.

Suggestions? The page is currently wrong (for many non US English speakers) and I'd have thought correcting or expanding the definition would merit at least considering the Cambridge dictionary as a valid source? If the page is meant to exclude UK readers lead with a UK pronunciation of the word? Verm the toaster (talk) 00:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I asked on User_talk:Oknazevad and was told I "need more than a single dictionary definition" so I've added a second British dictionary that leads with "Khaki is a strong material of a greenish brown colour" while also giving a yellow-brown meaning. I've also added a link to The Times a respected British newspaper that leads with pictures of green-brown "Khaki jackets", then to The Daily Mail (a possibly less respected paper) that describes Melania Trump's green jacket as "Khaki", then to an Australian "news" source describing a bikini as Khaki (I'm not Australian I don't know how to find better sources than go to random free Australian sites and search for Khaki). Hopefully that's enough to support the modified statement that "in Commonwealth English, khaki is frequently a shade of green"?

Yes in the UK khaki can also mean the sandy colour but if you search UK sites for Khaki clothes you'll find green is the predominant colour. It's not that surprising as Khaki was originally the cloth used for military uniforms and then became used to describe the colour of such uniforms which varied from one nation to another and varied from batch to batch and as they faded, also perhaps the fashion industry are lazy and have over the years dropped the "green" form "khaki green". The US usage is also used throughout the English speaking world in addition to any local usages, probably partly because this wiki and hence Google have defined that as the sole definition for the last few years. (this article used to acknowledge the existence of green Khaki.)Verm the toaster (talk) 11:31, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I think it's far more than just this article that has influenced the choice of using khaki as synonymous with tan. I'd say it's more just general pervasiveness of American media in the English speaking world. I do think we need a better source that a bikini pic for Australian usage; as I noted in my talk page the olive shade is listed as a secondary definition in the usually definitive (for Australian English) Macquarie Dictionary, and that's consistent with everything else I've ever seen out of Australia (I blame the late Steve Irwin.) and the Daily Mail is not a reliable source by any stretch. (In fact, it's outright depreciated.) I tweaked it, but did leave in material as a secondary definition. oknazevad (talk) 12:02, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Um.. you didn't note on your talk page that "olive shade is listed as a secondary definition" in the Maquire dictionary. You stated "the idea that khaki means green in Australian English is also incorrect". If you say the Maquire dictionary gives the olive shade as a secondary definition, can I suggest that's possibly a better source for Australian usage, if the bikini pic doesn't suit you? You could also have this Australian article describing your First Lady's green coat as Khaki (now that the Daily Mail article is gone).

BTW the Daily Mail may be deprecated as a source of accurate news and as a reference to how important something is, but it does (lamentably) have a large readership and as such does reflect how the English language is used, so was surely a valid source in this context. Perhaps you'd prefer the the BBC (have to scroll quite a way for colour) to show quite how varied and dark the British interpretation of Khaki is? Currently that bus is referenced in this wiki which states in WW1 buses "were painted khaki", and they certainly were not painted the light sandy colour of US Khaki currently implied. If you're not interested in fashion - which according to google image search is the current primary usage of the word, I could also point you at various UK paint manufacturers showing a whole range of Khaki from light sand through muddy chocolate and dark olive to pale green. Verm the toaster (talk) 14:11, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

anyway aside from minor concerns about sources, the article does now better reflect the ambiguity of the term Khaki outside the US. - thanks Verm the toaster (talk) 14:35, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Just as an experiment...

...and recognizing filter bubbles (I am, FWIW, a fifty-year-old American living in France) and all that, I did an image search on the word "khaki" (above) and averaged the RGB values (using a 1000-pixel-radius Gaussian blur) of all non-white and non-black pixels (below), as a way of assessing the zeitgeist. The resulting RGB value was C4B9A5. This is, presumably, an experiment that others can easily replicate, with different results depending upon your filter-bubble. Bill Woodcock (talk) 09:36, 13 January 2022 (UTC)