Talk:Khalilullah Khalili

Sources

I've reverted wrong and misleading edits by a new user. Please use the talk-page first. And please do not use wrong or unrelated sources! Tājik (talk) 20:28, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Dear Tajik:

I do not see any reasons for your motives. Perhaps you might consider facts.

I think I did it ok, the previous article on him was confusing and some-times incorrect. I have added sources and because of those important parts specially regarding his origin, as people of whom we Afghans consider "Anti-Afghans" a word famous for its members has alarmed many Afghans. I think it was their work to make sure his bio, get messy please read it again. Its confusion and rises a lot of questions/controversies. Wikipedia is to solves those problems and not ignoring facts. I tried my best to make sure it made sense, next to those facts I placed wiki-Hyper-links, such as connecting with Safi, a tribe of Pashtun origin, and a source to make sure there is no confusion. Safi is a well known famous tribe of the region with over 700 years of history their name has been mentioned, many times, in many history books. Unfortunately people do not see it right to connect such simple facts. He wasn't Persian Which basically refers to a greater linguistic group in Iran, making up 51% of Iran (CIA Factbook), and he wasn't Tajik, another linguistic living in Turkistan (Afghanistan/Uzbekistan/Turkmanistan and their known state driving the word "Tajik" =Tajikistan) [[1]] The Tajiks as you can see from the above map can be found anywhere in Turkistan, which means they also live in Afghanistan, might of immigrated into Afghanistan during 19th Century when Russian Empire was expanding in the region some 500,000 Tajik people moved south, however further during 20th century known as Russian civil war of "1917 to 1921 affected Tajikistan as an estimated 200,000 to 480,000 people, many of whom participated in the basmachi uprising, fled to Afghanistan" [[2]] Anyways that's a different story. What we need here is to prove his origin as "Tajik" a Turkistani linguistic group speaking a dialect close to "Persian", or Iranian Persian. This is important, a greater confusion has been created in Wikipedia, where many not only confuse facts with the ferry tales, but also make-up their own "facts".

Indeed there is a greater difference between a from Turkic race speaking a Persian language (Which they did in their empires such as Suljaks Persian was their main language but their origin was Turkic, which were like people of modern Tajik, and a person classified as "Persian" ie true identified as Iranian ie Pars Province/capital of their Empire is their "true home"e. One speaking a Persian does not mean he/she is Iranian, maybe Iranian by their tongue because of their language and linguistic classification the people of Tajiks are referred by their language Tajiki a form of Persian dialect. Just as over half billion people speak English but that does not mean all of them are of "English" origin, the English came from many races.

We must not be confusing ourselves from a native groups belonging to Afghanistan, Iran and Turkistan. In conclusion all I have to say is that if he considered himself "Afghan", meaning he belongs to Afghan origin, either by a tribe/Clan or linguistic means, and we shell not make-up something for him, just give a little heads up for ourselves and our own selfishness. Simply because I am Tajik and he is also Tajik because we speak a language that share many words here and there., resulting in something which he is not, and it would be an insult, to define him as "Persian" or Tajik, creating a confusion over who is what. When he consider himself "Afghan", therefore he is Afghan... one can easily read one of his books and would notice he mentions the word "Afghan nejat" "Nejat" an afghan word for "Race" over 20 times.

Chi Shoud Afgan Nejat, sarbazan Chi shoud Nago ki pai basta sarbazan chi shoud. Further he goes by finishing Aman Afgan ki padarish, dar yadish bood Bego ki chi shoud afgan nejan, chi shoud

Wasn't he a Afghan nationalist? Yes he was. So why need of mentioning "Tajik nationalist" in his bio? Again Why bother read anything or need of any such source when the whole world knows belonged to an Afghan tribe of Safi. Just open any of his books and see his name, in the front page, and if he didn't his tribe/clan mention "Safi", then it means either its not his book, or a misprint, one of the two.

Please take your time read it again.

Thanks

Alishah85 (talk) 23:43, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

a) Your edits are no improvement at all. The quality of the new version is really poor, as well as its English. Besides that, you do not use any reliable sources. The two articles you have posted (one by NY Times, and another by an unconfirmed private blog with no credibility) are not considered sources by wikipedia (see WP:Source)

I don't understand Tājik's comment here about the NY Times. WP:Source says "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers." The New York Times is usually considered a mainstream newspaper. --Bejnar (talk) 21:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It depends on how you use newspapers. The New York Times is a reliable source when it comes to current events, but not when it comes to biographies. However, this is not the issue in here. If you check Alishah's sources, he has posted some weird links claiming that "the original version was posted" by this or that University, News Paper, etc. Tājik (talk) 22:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source for "not when it comes to biographies"? Libraries regularly use The New York Times Biographical Edition and its replacement The New York Times Biographical Service as research tools. Of course there is a big difference between paid obituaries and professionally done ones. Paid obits are generally so marked. --Bejnar (talk) 22:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Now, go and check Alishah's edits. If you find The New York Times Biographical Service among his provided references, then let me know ... Tājik (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

b) You missunderstand the original version. It does not say that he was a Tajik nationlist, but that he is sometimes associated with Tajik nationalism. Khalilullah Khalili dedicated his most important work, "Hero of Khorasan", to Habibullah Kalakani, the only ethnnic Tajik in Afghanistan's history to rule the country.

c) Khalili's father was not a Safi, but only the family of his mother.

d) Your theories about Tajiks and Persians and so forth is simply pseudo-scientific nonsense and - to a large part - racist. Claiming that Tajiks are not original inhabitants of Afghanistan but "immigrants who moved to the country in the 19th century" is pure nonsense and racist, unsourced propaganda pushed forward by Pashtun ultra-nationalists and the Taliban. Supporting this kind of racist and pseudo-scientific propaganda may get you blocked permanently. So I urge you to remove the text. Anyway, I have reported you to admins. Tājik (talk) 01:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Alishah, I agree with Tajik on this one. We need good sources, like newspapers and books, blogs are not something we can use. However, poor English can always be fixed, and correct sources will correct any controversies we have with each other. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 01:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Give Alishah a few days to get his sources. After that, we'll partially revert anything that is not correct. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 01:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

To: Tajik

b) Dear Tajik please try to understand I mean no such offense. I have fully understand that there are Tajiks in Afghanistan (As i mentioned Tajiks are almost everywhere in Turkistan, aside from Turkistani nation of Tajikistan be if its Afghanistan or Turkmanistan, they may be few or more but Tajiks are everywhere This is a fact simple they are more then enough sources to prove this, I as an being myself are aware of their existence and what i gave above (along with a source) was an average Afghan understanding of Tajiks and their existence to Afghanistan, how/when etc etc can be balanced back and forth and maybe i shouldn't of mentioned it. But I was alerted with the word UTajik Nationalist/U, and the question that i ask "If Tajik nationalism exists in Afghanistan" then a source should be provided. Because I know there are Azeri Nationalists in Iran, who are looking for greater Azerbijan, there are Kurdish nationalists exists in Turkey, where they are looking for their greater Kurdistan.

Now since you mentioned Habibullah Kalakani, and he maybe Tajik or not but this is very much of unknown as he has no backround history, clans or any tribal system/names which would consider him Afghan other than "Kalakan" a small village in Afghanistan. The only thing which we do know of him, its his father's lower status in the Afghan army "Son of water carrier" or "Bachi Chaga-how". Since most sources consider him "Tajik" well that's fine. We have Tajiks in Afghanistan as I mentioned above. But Again consider this to be true Amanullah Khan the reformist, who was walking on the steps of Ata Turk such as removing of headscarf, modesty, availability western fashion, etc etc. I mean it was good I personally support him, but not hardcore Muslims, even today when people still fallow Taliban and there are some large number of Afghans who still support Taliban. Imagine what would it be like during 1920s, being modern or even wearing pants were banned during Habibullah Kalakani Why? because his backers and supporters were Islamists and hardcore Sunnis, it has nothing to do with Tajik nationalism and during his time i don't think there would be such function if it did, I am very sure he wouldn't get supporters. Now having said that. If someone really thinks there is a Tajik nationalism going on in Afghanistan, i am very sure today Afghanistan is a free country, under supervision of 35 non-Governmental organizations, and under 100 news and medias from 100s of nations who have members trying to help build Afghanistan, and without any force any nationalist group in Afghanistan can get their voice out into the Air if they want "Greater Tajikistan" etc etc you know what I mean. (Although there is person by the name of Latif Pedram, belonging to Ismaili sact who I think is trying to use this opportunity, even yet still he only gets 1.3 % of the votes, which i think are his religious backers), but other then that I know non, perhaps Mr. Tajik you can help me identify "Tajik" nationalists/organization who are fighting for their "greater Azerbijan" etc etc.

a) Well you have every right to judge it in any ways you like, but again if its English maybe you can help me with that. But someone CAN't CHANGE or HIDE FACTS, just to fit their own made up ideas of who he was etc etc. I had used http://ishkbooks.com/books/QUKK1.html please see http://ishkbooks.com/ stands for INSTITUTE FOR THE STUDY OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE and because they sell Khalilollah Khalili they have give a mini description, and that's fine if you don't consider that have a look at https://www.target.com and search for his book. Same thing has been said. I used this link to point out that he is also considered to be a "Sufi".

The Other source which I used is http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE6DF113CF937A25756C0A961948260 New York Times is also a well known famous newspaper in United States. I have included some useful information which was not available in your version, such as information regarding his family, his documented death date etc.

Another Source Which I used often and made reference to important points such as his origin/tribal name. http://www.afghanmagazine.com/arts/khalili/khalili.html This is one of the well known magazine in United States for the Afghan community. and If you think this has not been used in wikipedia. You be surprised that sometimes this is the only source used.

Look at the one i edited and compare the sources and reference from old one the one you prefer. Speaking of "unconfirmed private blog" you should look at the one you wanted people to see. "Bitter Fruit Falling" by Khalilullah Khalili  ??? It doesn't even exists! God its 100% blog where Afghanmagazine.com is well known and famous among Afghan community, its not blog!!!, Consider another one of your Blogs. An article by Said Ehsan in the Lamar-Aftaab online magazin You consider http://www.geocities.com a confirmed source? Please have a look, just click the link and this is what you see a picture at the bottom [u] (This picture is from the cover of "Deewaan-e Khalilullah Khalili", a collection of Khalili's poems. Published: Erfan Press, Tehran 1378 hejri shamsi. Arranged by Ebrahim Shari`ati, cover design by Musa Akbari. ISBN: 964-330-632-1)[/u] Right and look at the bottom reads [u]* An article by Said Ehsan in the Lamar-Aftaab online magazine [/u] Now can you please click into hyperlinked "Article" that link right ON you see http://www.afghanmagazine.com/arts/khalili/khalili.html isn't same source which I used. Great now we have something in common, now you still deny my work. That's why I said PLEASE HAVE A LOOK AT YOUR OWN SOURCE. What changes did I made? Well I removed that middle link from to An article by Said Ehsan in the Lamar-Aftaab online magazin Lamr Aftaab is from Afghanmagazine.com which you just called a ""unconfirmed private blog"" so which one would it be? Let see another External source http://www.spyoftheheart.com/c2.php [u] The story of one American exploration of Islamic spirituality within the turmoil of Afghanistan!!![/u] another Blog! if not blog what you consider this to be? and finally "Restoring Poetry to Afghanistan" by Steve Coll you consider NPR to be useful and not New york Times???

Anyways My conclusion:

He is an Afghan by root ie he belonged to Safi tribe both from mother and father side, He is not associated with any "tajik nationalism" since it doesn't exist at all, and as an Afghan myself, I make sure I provide you with enough source, so that I am not violating any policies of Wikipedia.

Nothing Personal no need to report me for anything. Indeed we are here for making Wikipedia a better source. It has been given a bad name for all such reason as above, where people with power change stuff without any reason or considering facts etc etc. Anyways I shell come up with something within a Day as Mr. PashtunIsmailhia said, I need some time.

Thanks

bye

Alishah85 (talk) 09:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I have asked you to stop racist slanders, but you continue it. I also asked you to provide reliable sources after reading WP:SOURCE, but you have noting reliable to offer. The links you have provided are not reliable sources. So, it will be deleted anyway. Tājik (talk) 13:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC) Dear Tajik I mean no harm again I do understand which "racist slanders" are you referring to? I went trough again to make sure i made no such bad/racist slanders, Again dear Tajik, I am sorry by heart, i have no means of disrespecting your, people of central Asia are great people and no-one would dear to have any reasonings for being Racist against any of its group. or any other groups. Alishah85 (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Origin

Dear Tājik and dear User:Nepaheshgar I have made some minor changed but not as many as before, because this would lead into an edit war, and no-body wants that. So let put an end to this. The misunderstanding came when Tajik did not paid attention to the sources which were already available before my editings, and the ones I provided which were much directly-linked compared to blogs and personal web-pages. Now I have edited few minor stuff with with reference which i think is not enough but more then enough. Please forgive me if I have English problem, I tried my best, not to make mistakes, and if you guys can help me out in this, please do so. This is all for the sake of Wikipeda.org and for better understanding and dependency of Wikipedia.org.

Thanks

bye

Alishah85 (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)#

Please read WP:SOURCES. The articles you are inserting into the article do not fit the requirements. Tājik (talk) 22:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, they do meet the requirements of WP:SOURCES, saying they don't doesn't make it so. You and I have had this discussion. NY Times obits are fine, as are magazine articles, absent something better. --Bejnar (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

then please provide your own source. I have Dari-Afghan books and much more. but if I post it again it would be same result of dissatisfaction, simply because its not "English" therefore it doesn't meet the requirements.

Alishah85 (talk) 23:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC) Alishah85 (talk) 02:03, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

• IP editor 84.59.202.75 has posted the following citations for a Tajik origin:

The Quatrains of Khalilulah Khalili - Institute for the Study of Human Knowledge

Orient - Von Nah- und Mittelost-Verein, Deutsches Orient-Institut, 1992, published by University of Michigan

Modern Afghanistan: A History of Struggle and Survival; from Amin Saikal, Ravan Farhadi, Kirill Nourzhanov; published by I.B.Tauris, 2006

Unfortunately the citations are incomplete. All three lack page numbers, and the middle citation appears to lack author and title as well. See Wikipedia:citing sources. The Modern Afghanistan citation appears to be to p. 94 which says One of them was Khalilullah Khalili, arguably Afghanistan's most celebrated poet of the twentieth century. Khalili, himself a Tajik and a contemporary ... Unfortunately that source provides no more than that. A search of WorldCat failed to identify an edition of Quatrains of Khalilulah Khalili published by the Institute for the Study of Human Knowledge. Orient is a journal that is published by Nah- und Mittelost-Verein (Germany) for the Deutsches Orient-Institut; however, no article author or title, volume or year is provided. On that basis I have removed the two unverifiable citations.

There does seem to be agreement that Khalilulah Khalili (Khalīl Allāh Khalīlī) was from the Safi clan, but not about what the Safi clan was, namely either (1) a Pashtun clan that had been, at least partially, Persianized or (2) a coalition of various Tajik families formed in the middle of the 19th century to protect their lands from Pashtun nomads. To pick between those two we need citations to reliable published sources. I have removed reference to "Tajik" and "Pashtun" and the above two choices, pending citations to reliable published sources about the nature of the Safi clan. Please discuss this on the talk page before making edits. Hopefully we can achieve consensus if only among the non-IP editors. --Bejnar (talk) 21:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

At least the IP has begun to provide really good sources. They are definitely more worth than the news-paper articles provided by Alishah85. We should use the new sources in the article and/or site both of them, though the provided literature is of course more reliable. I agree with the IP that Bejnar's recent changes were not correct, as he still claimed that he belonged to the Pashtun Safi clan - after all, this is the disputed point. However, insults and racist comments by the IP should be removed immidiately and reported to admins. Tājik (talk) 22:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

It would be interesting for you tailed Jews to read this and http://www.afghan-german.de/upload/Tahlilha_PDF/karwan_hazyaanaat_e_khalilullah_ khalili.pdf this about Khalilli. He was indeed not only a Tajik, but also a great Tajik nationalist who hated the Aughan Jews [Pashtuns/Afghns] more than Nazis the Jews. He was a thorn in the eyes of Pashtun[s] dogs and other fascists->AughanMellatis->Aughan Nazis--84.59.202.75 (talk) 22:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

PLEASE NO INSULTS! I have therefore "censored" your text. Please try to respect the rules. *sigh* BTW: this is also a noteworthy source. Tājik (talk) 22:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Tajik, but an answer was in need.

@AliShah, the dog of Pakis and Taliban

You Khar-wal should visit this link http://www.shamalionline.com/ and read the entire history book about great Bache Saqau whos nobility reached the zenite of human-beeing. He was not hardcore Muslim nor was he backed by hardcore Muslims...but it were Pashtuns who stopped him in his actions. Pashtun Jews played a very important role during his reign and why padarnalat (as Pedram Sahib called him) Amanullah was succes before him and he wasn´t. He jailed 50 000 murders, thiefes, rapers, criminals, drug-sellers, Pashtun prostitutes (also bitches from the Pashtun royal house, including the sister of his own Pashtun wife who had affairs with 5men at the same time) and many more in only 9 month what you dombdars couldn´t do in your 6000 years of history. Stupid losers--84.59.202.75 (talk) 22:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Please take a look at my edit again, I did not say that he belonged to the "Pashtun Safi clan". I deliberately removed the word Pashtun from in front of "Safi clan". Second, 84.59.202.75 had agreed that he was from the Safi clan, as the references say. Please remove the Pashtun and Tajik ethnicity statements until we can reach a consensus.

• Please remove the empty citations, see above. --Bejnar (talk) 22:34, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

if the sources say he was a TAJIK than he was a TAJIK...just accept academic works. It´s not like Puta Khazana or any tales of Pashtu Toalana...it´s reality!--84.59.202.75 (talk) 22:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I have removed any references to his ethnicity until the dispute is over. @ IP: please provide correct links or page numbers to the sources you have mentioned. If you do not, they are worthless. @ Bejnar: I hope we can reach a consensus. Until the dispute is not solved, I suggest not to wikilink "Safi" with Safi tribe, as it seems that they were two different tribes sharing the same name. Tājik (talk) 22:49, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

DEAR Tajik and associated members. I understand the weakness within many neighboring people of Afghanistan misunderstanding Afghans. First of all Tajiks don't have the tribal system of what Afghans have, second of all, he was not Tajik nationalist or a Persian to be connected with any ethnicity outside Afghan Race. The fact he spoke Dari like many Afghans where DARI is fully respected and understood by the population, Including Karzai. This theory of placing him into such classes as to make him associated with those in Turkistan or Iran only exists between few 2-3 members often verified to be one of many and with same supporting ideas which is not understood by majority of Afghans. Specially when Facts are turned around and ignored.

Khalili was all about Islam and without any mistake he was an Afghan Nationalist and both of his parents were "SAfi". Believe me if his father was from any other tribe it would be well mentioned, he was Safi and this whole issues of language comes to the conflict. Who are those WHO SPEAK DARI. Conclusion PERSIAN/Tajik? because these are the supportive word that can verify a Dari speaker despite his last name as "SAfi" and clarifying himself as an Afghan over 20 times mentioning his tribe as I countered in in many of his books, still people in here try to delete the word "Afghan", "Pashtun", and un-hyperlinking the word Safi, to exclude people from accessing into another article, is very racist, and undeniable just because no Afghan gov published published such book regarding him and therefore there is a lack of sources?...WHY Because Afghan government for all 35 years of conflict was not aware its self so how would they be aware of others labeling the population and grouping them based languages? Even today if some-one asks me, What are you? I would proudly say? "Afghan" then often as the new questions comes specially when the person is not aware as much and very much influenced by western Media? Which one? Are you Pashtun or a Tajik? right away a now that we Farsiwans are labeled and identified as Tajiks, and therefore my answer is "Tajik". But I would assume he doesn't know much, and let of the case, but if the person further goes into Politics, i would take my time to introduce myself, and explain that I am of Sahak tribe and therefore can further trace my self by means of my last name and the "Qawami" linkage. Which then further confuses the person. "So are you Pashtun?" Well right away my response comes. "NO I am not Pashtun because I don't speak Pashtu!". It only gets worse and worse, because the concept of being Afghan (A classical racial/tribal Term) is misunderstood. I can be Afghan only if I can trace myself into being Afghan, ie by means of tribal linkage, and even if I lost it, i can still say I am Afghan, as in inference to my grandfather and Forefathers despite my last-name may connect me with Arabs or Indians. This is one of the main concept in figuring of Afghans, ignore the language can also have greater misunderstandings.

People of Afghanistan clarify themselves by saying 1) I am Muslim. 2) I am Afghan 3) I am Pashtoon/Farsiwan

If the person belongs to other groups living in Afghanistan such as Uzbek or Tajik Goes 1) I am Muslim 2) I am Uzbek (Or I am Tajik if they are Tajik or Hazara or Turkman they will surely to clarify themselves) 3) I am from a country called Afghanistan

Or They may clerify it as I am Muslim, belonging to the Uzbeks of Afghanistan.

Every person and human being has their own pride in being of who they are. We shell not create myths about them, if we only know "I am from Afghanistan" well Yes there the death person has answered the question. There should be to myth to make Rumi a Turk or Persian if he says I am From Balkh, because in Islam it violates the laws of God because "ethnicity has no importance in the face of Allah" that was Rumi's believe, he was neither from West nor East, nor north or south.

What would make Khalili a man with so many supporters and so many position for so many years to hide his identity? He proudly he was Afghan and he proudly promoted the "Safi War". Khalili was a warrior of an Afghan origin and his pen was not against Afghan Government but the modernization of the nation such policies which already shock Islamic world such laws as removal of Chador or Veil was first passed by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and later the Raza Shah passed the law in 1934 where Chador or Veil was to be prohibited female and teachers from wearing the Chador. This policies was part of few modernization policies which came in packed and believe Afghans were very disturbed by this. In fact it worked in Turkey and in Iran but to Afghans, one of the most hardcore Sunna Hanifah class it would never work. Although those who have little knowledge due the lack of local researching and local history. This I have to say before referring to him to any class please refer to his poems, pure nationalist, a "Khariatman" and his Islamic ideologies/teachings which were pure more like extra-Talibani views and if he was alive today he would not be counted different from a terrorist, due to his anti-western views of modernizations. He was behind one of view men of Safi clan, who launched a war known as "Safi War" and this was major Internal-Pashtun-Tribal war vs the King of Afghanistan with their modernizing the Afghan nation. Raza Shah succeeded, so did Ataturk but not the Afghan king. People have taken this issue beyond into ethnic stuff which doesn't even fit with the facts.

Again regarding its his language that many of you are confused don't be surprised. Language does not represent Race, sure we can be classified as English specially in back home to where-ever we may be from (Turkistan-Tajikistan, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan) to their eyes we are English as to we speak English, but racially speaking are we really English? So please no use of hiding anything, Khalili has already a symbol for Afghan Islamist, and don't be surprised if he is called a "Pashtun" because he belongs to a tribe where majority are Pashtu speakers, and connected to fallow Afghan laws, in the main time continue with labeling him as Persian or Tajik which could make no sense in the really how could some-one be Persian/Tajik when he is "Safi". Therefore a clarification must placed in order to make sure people are not confused, or face the reality "Language does not represents Race" one of many controversies of westerners (Specially Russian who defined Demographics of Afghanistan) where aside from real Uzbeks, Turkmans, some another 27% of Afghanistan are associated with people of Turkistan, placing the root of natives less then half some 38%-48%, again only based on limited linguistic classification. A person must speak Pashtu in order to be Pashtun, and a person must speak Dari in order to be a Tajik, Does it make sense, to non-Afghans. YES. To Afghans? NOPE.

bye

Alishah85 (talk) 06:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Correct, my tribe, the Muhammadzai, often spoke Dari (Eastern Persian) but we're not Farsiwan. But everyone here agrees to that. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 06:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

If you speak Dari or any form of Persian to any Russian linguistic who formally did their survey in 1950s, you would be classified as "Tajik" and if you argue that you don't like the name they would still label you as Tajik and publish your name and your family members as Tajik. This is a fact and you can go back to review their work. Why because the word Tajik is what they choose not just for you but even for the population of Iran. By all means you can refer to their survey. If you want sources to this let me know and I shell be with you within a day. Language was the main concept of grouping people specially in the very socialistic environment "Communism", however it only took 10 years to be published in Norway and made its way in British library within 3 years. Once in English its all over, and was well used as reference by Americans in 1980s, and mid 1990s. So Dear pashtun ismailiyya you would automatically registered based on your mother tongue unless you insist by saying "I am Pashtun and that's what I wanted to be known as" because to any Sahak an I am not a Pashtun but rather a farsiwan, and to any westerner, just like you they know little of the word "Farsiwan" and they by all means can clarify me as Tajik. Unless.... I protest, and say that I am Pashtun, in order to prove myself as a Pashtun to the 48% Pashtun population i must speak Pashtu, again that's all together a different issue. Thanks for understanding Dear

Bye Alishah85 (talk) 06:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, technically to be Pashtun among Pashtuns, we accept people who's father is a Pashtun. In addition, they should follow Pashtunwali and be able to speak Pashto. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 06:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, I have just skipped Alishah's long posting, and - honestly - I do not care what he writes. As long as you have good sources (and that would be scholastic literature in the first place), there won't be any problems. As for Khalili: it is a fact that he wrote exclusively in Persian, and it is a fact that he emotionally celebrated the Tajik Saqqawīya movement. Even in the last years of his life, he was closeley associated with Burhanuddin Rabbani and Ahmad Shah Massoud, his son is still a close associate of the Tajik wing in Afghanistan's government. These are facts, and we have good sources for it (some have been already provided). I really do not care if he was Pashtun, Hazara, or whatever. But certain facts are just that: facts. Even if he was Pashtun, he is being associated with Tajik national ideology sometimes. Khalilullah Khalili was a master of the Persian language and chose his words very wisely, and the fact that his privately published biography of Habibullah Kalakani - the ONLY Tajik ruler of Afghanistan - is titled Hero of Khorasan, in the terminology of Tajik nationalists, is a fact that cannot be denied. Basically, Khalili not only used the same terminology, but also had the same ideology as modern Tajik nationalist politicians, such as Latif Pedram. Both glorified/glorify Habibullah Kalakani, both detested/detest rulers such as Amanullah Khan, and both used the controversial name "Khorasan" instead of "Afghanistan". These are pure facts. Now, leaving that aside: just come up with GOOD SOURCES. Tājik (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC) BTW: I have stubbornly deleted the racist, anti-Pashtun comments by the IP, and I have asked Alishah to stop his own anti-Persian, pseudo-scientific racist comments. I won't delete his comments this time. But the next time he writes such a nonsense about "Pashtun majority", "Tajiks come from Turkistan", blah blah blah, I will delete this nonsense without any warning. If he complains, I will contact admins. Tājik (talk) 11:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

DEar Tajik First of all the controversy of your theories about Khorasan ie Afghanistan Balha blah blah has no points in here, I have Khalili's book right in front of my face and by all means i can refer to any pages you wish, or if want i can scan them for you. He was an Afghan nationalist, pro-Islamic and not a raciest person of any kind, he was the man of his time and he had influence alot of Afghans. If one is familiar with his work then you would know what i mean, and you would probably leave alone regard of arguing about him, but unfortunately what you know is only from few pages of the web I prefer few pages of his Book. He was Afghan by Root, and yes I agree he was not Pashtun because he did not spoke Dari. But his Pashtun connecting is well known to be a fact, you can by all means refer to his sons who also can't speak Farsi but do not associate themselves as being "Tajik" this word is only coming from the western point of views which has labeled many people of Afghan origin as ""Tajik" simply because of his language. He has family tribal root takes him back to being "Afghan" ie Safi tribe. And if you want to know many other intellectuals who are also Safi let me know there are plety of them out there, like Durrani, Ghalzai, Kakar, Suri, Ghorakhel, Apradias, Yousufzai and Pakhtiwals, the Shinwari too is an Afghan tribe, and Safi is the largest section of Shinwari. Yes he was born in Panj sheir and the leader of Panj Sheir before Ahmad Shah Massoud were the Safi's who controlled majority of the areas of Kohistan. (Kohistan is a region that includes Parts of NWFP and Afghanistan, Please don't even bother with wikipedia article of Kohistan, but i would prefer Britannica Kohistān is that sparsely populated area of Pakistan which lies west of Chilas in Kashmir and the Kāgān Valley. The eastern part is known as Indus Kohistān (for the Indus River) and the western part, divided between Swāt Kohistān (also called Kālām) and Dīr Kohistān, extends across the northern part of the state to the Afghanistan border. Afghan Kohistān (Kūhestān), in part highly cultivated, lies north-northeast of Kābul and extends to the Hindu Kush (mountains) http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/321071/Kohistan

Alishah85 (talk) 10:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Alishah, your claims and comments are pure weakness. A Pashtun who does not have any usage of his own mother-tonguen or tribal customs is not more considered as a Pashtun. The tribalic and strongly ethnocentric Pashtuns are well-known for that. Let´s call Khalilullah as a Pashtun from the Safis (remarke the Persian name), and let´s call him in charakter the best Pashtun-beeing person BUT the question is not answerd. Do Pashtuns accept him after dropping of Pashtu and Pashtun identity (Pashtunwali)? Of course not. Surely, there are many Pashtuns who are forced to speak in Persian as primery language, since Persian language and culture along it´s history is the dominante part of Afghanistan´s identity as the original heritage of modern Afghanistan since it´s creation by Abdurrahman and his Anglo-Saxon masters in 1893-95 , but they keep Pashtuns because they still use Pashtu and Pashtunwali at home and among Pashtun friends and inside their own families. In addition, also very weak and no meaningfull as just a tribal language of (original) nomade people in the south and on the mountains in the east, was always promoted by Pashtun leaders in the public, in schools, in the modern literature etc. to reduce Persian and Persian value, also they kept resultless. Even after banning Persian at school 3 years long and later it´s accepting but reducing at schools on 2 hours a day(12th and 13th). There is not a single Pashtun who cannot speak his mother-tongue, only some who use Persian language as their primery language, since as immigrants in regions like Kabul, Laghman etc. they have to speak in the native language of the regions. Same for Tajiks, Pashais, Nuristanis, Ormuris etc. in eastern and southern Afghanistan, except, that they are not immigrants but forced to speak Pashtu since they are surrounded by a lingually dominant groupe, the Pashtuns.

So after that fact, IF Khalili was a Pashtun, than he was never accepted as such one by his own Pashtuns, neither ethnical nor cultural and lingual. Khalilullah had never written a single word about beeing Afghan or Pashtun nor he had ever written something in Pashtu, not even a single word. But the reality is that he was a Tajik, a teacher of Persian language, history and identity, even in the university. His father was hanged by the fascist Pashtun government who are today the heroes of many million Pashtuns and further they killed many of his fellows who supportet the Safi movement against the Pashtun thieves (Mangals, Zadrans, Mohammadzais, Ghilzais) and their royals. Since then, even today, not a single Pashtun is man enough to come to our regions or do only one step there without any permission, if there is any Pashtu men (the Taliban tried and were killed up to ca. 12000-15000). Everyone knows that these regions, except Kabul on those days(also a Tajik/Persian country), are very Anti-Pashtun influenced. Indeed, he was a Safi, but not a Pashtun. Tajik Safis are of Hanbalite faith (intermingled with Ismaili philosophy) and Sufis and Pashtun Safis are neither Sufis nor Hanbalites or Hanafits and are even today nomads. Some of the Pashtun Safis were even leaders of the Pashtun Taliban movement (Pashtun nationalism) who led their own Safi people against Non-Pashtuns, specially against Shia Tajiks of Kandahar. Your nationalistic claims Safis of nothern plateau are Pashtuns and thus Wahabits and Taliban or that in Kandahar they call themself as Pashtuns and in the nothhern regions as Tajiks is just yours and that of your Pashtun natioanlists POV who want to expain everyone with Pashtun names to a Pashtun (not to forget, that the Safis outside Kandahar are all of Tajik origine and always call themself as Tajiks, specially in Mazar)

Safi is just a name, a Persian name like Durrani, Suri, Popal, Ehtemadi, Nawidi, Nawabi. I count you these special names because Pashtuns use them as their tribal designation, but Tajiks use it as their surnames or their geographical settlements. Not all Durrani is a Pashtun, but all Durrani Pashtuns are Durranis.*

During the Taliban periode, many Safis and also Khalili´s sons were supporting NA and Ahmad Shah Massud. When Rabbani was president, one of his sons were his close ally and got a very good place in the government. Today, in his family is only one person who is married with a full Persianized Pashtun, and that´s his youngest daughter. All his sons and the rest are married into their own nation, the nation of Tajiks. Today, they are all engaged in the politics of Afghanistan and support the members of Non-Pashtuns.

Also your further claims, Tajiks have no sense for nationalism is wrong. You should inform yourself about The Afghan Robin Hood who was killed by so-called Pashtun heroes (criminals and fascists), or about Ahmad Shah Massud, Taher Badakhshi, Shughnani, Latif Pedram, Aanang Nazeri, an German officier of Tajik descandt who is a KSK soldier. There are many more Tajiks who were nationalists but there were also many Tajiks who were not nationalists but were killed as one by criminal and fascist Psahtuns, just because they were asking for real brother-ship, equality etc. The reason why Psahtuns were so succces to eliminate Tajik nationalists was because it´s against the Tajik mentality and culture to fight and thus the martial and wild Pashtuns were able to knock one after one. But today, Tajiks have learned a lot and in a future state that is today known as Afghanistan there won´t be any Tajik who will give Pashtun his head. It will be the otherway round. Modern Tajik nationalism is different and Tajiks recognized that as long as they are civilized and quite, they will lose. Unlike yesterday, modern Tajik nationalism does not more act aggressively against Non-Afghanistanis who try to act from outside the country as the British or the later Soviet Empire did and got bloody noses because of the Tajiks of Kohistan(Kabul, Panjsher, Kapisa and Parvan) and Herat, modern Tajik nationalism will eye every enemy, inside and outside Afghanistan. That´s why Obama have an eye on Tajik nationalism which is immune against arabism and Pakistani/Pashtun/Pathan/Punjabi nationalism. The modern Tajik nationalism will burst Pashtuns and their allies in pieces. It´s main power it takes from the western countries where Tajiks get more and more educated and understand the fallacy of Afghanistan and the Pashtunic games. The war between Pashtun and Tajik nationalists has already began, just that the Tajiks are today well-prepared and do not more trust Pashtuns and Pashtunists (Taliban etc.) who come up with valueless untrustfull words. That´s why Kabul fear western Tajiks so much than 'inside-Tajiks. In a future Tajik controlled country, there won´t be anymore a dictating Pashtun. Everyone who raise his voice will be a victim of Tajik nationalism or in general of Persian/Aryan nationalism (including that of Hazaras and to certain degrees also Uzbeks´)

Btw, who was the poilitical leader and member of the Mujaheddin fraction Muhammad Azam Safi? Was he a Tajik or a Pashtun? Answer this question by your-own.

Ps: Tajiks are not tribalic, but also Tajiks are devided in some cases in subs. The Arbabzais are a sub-group of Tajiks,the Ghoris of Badakhchan are Tajiks, the Wakhis, Yughnanis, Shughanis, Yaghnobis, Laghmanis etc. are all of Tajik cluster and identify themself as such one.

Ps: Reading your POV´s and comments here on the diskpage I understand why Tajik nationalism is frighting you rascist bastards. Remark my words Gypsi, once we are again your masters, there will role Pashtun heads in all Tajik regions where you occupated it, including Kandahar city. If we won´t be able to eliminate you rascist and fascist bastards for once, our name won´t be more Tajik.--92.117.63.177 (talk) 12:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Aside from your blatantly racist remarks against Pashtuns, you showed both strong knowledge of sweet Afghanistan as well as the cultures among her various ethnic groups. As you pointed out correctly, a Pashtun who does not follow Pashtunwali and speak Pashto is not a Pashtun. Even religion sometimes counts: I have heard Sunni Pashtuns accuse us Shi'a Pashtuns of actually being Iranians who settled and took the Pashtun lifestyle! Anyway, I would like you to get an account and join Wikipedia, you're very intelligent and talented and we need more people like you. Right now I'm one of the few active people in Wikipedia:WikiProject Afghanistan, and I would love someone knowledgeable like yourself. If you can write from a neutral point of view (without all the hatred of other ethnic groups), then perhaps you can be one of our better editors. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 06:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

92.117.63.177 What you said above, clearly shows how educated and informed you really are. Sorry I am speechless to what you are refering to, perhaps i shell take your theory into consideration, that everything is Persian. That just puts it in there. Thanks for your kindness and racist attacks. Oh boy a great thanks to wikipedia should be made.Alishah85 (talk) 10:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

To the guy behind all those IPs originating in Germany (a.k.a User:Tajik)...please look at Irrelevant video redacted....this is what happens to those who try to 'cause mischief in the land' of Afghanistan. First, there is nothing in Afghanistan to fight over...second, Afghanistan is land of the Afghans (Pashtuns)....which always has been since at least the time when Alexander the great conquered Persia...to Arabs conquering it in the 7th century.... and especially after 1200s when Genghis Khan killed almost every Persian in the region and left the territory just empty land. This was due to Persians acting bad when in reality they were a very weak army...and Genghis Khan showed Persians a thing they never seen before. We shiites of Iran don't want any trouble with Afghanistan or the Afghans, we are afraid that they might invade our country and do to it what they did in early 1700s. I think Pashtuns are chosen people of God, everyone who messes with them get destroyed. Safavid Shia Empire was defeated by Pashtuns in early 1700s, British Empire was defeated by Pashtuns, USSR was destroyed by Pashtuns, even today the American empire, which is backed by nearly all the nations, may also see a defeat by Pashtuns if they have bad intentions.

Ok Mr. Whoever you are. That video was a spam and very violent/racist, and all too fake. I don't care about what linguistic group you are trying to support, in order to mislead others, and i don't care about your support for such terrorist acts and believes by the name of Shia or Sunni. Providing such external explicit/adult links I think you should be banned. Islam is about peace not animal acts of such which you think is right by providing that link. Here you come pretending to be some-one which you are not, and mischief in the name of such races/ethnics to justify your yourselves and your backers to make people believe that its the way Afghans talk or believe? Indeed you are a sinner and what makes you think that people would believe in you? you created an account with the IP with which you continued to violate Wikipedia articles regarding Afghans in the past and now came with another idea to blackmail Afghans? You think people would believe in you? I think you should be banned. Alishah85 (talk) 05:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't write that message to you but to User:Tajik who lives in Germany and is using all these annon IP numbers from the same location in Germany, spreading same POVs but trying to change his writing sometimes to confuse others. Alishah85, I know exactly who you are and if you want to test my intelligence...I will get you blocked very quick and laugh at you everytime you come again with a new sock ID. Don't pretend dumb with me, ok son. About the video clip, that's not fake, it's what happened to Shias who go try to cause mischief in the land of Pashtuns. Read holy Koran where it says that anyone who causes mischief in the land must be killed, off with their heads, destroyed, etc. About me explaining history, all the Persians being killed in Afghanistan in 1200s...read this "Extremely angered, Genghis Khan rode upon the city with 80.000 troops and besieged it from six months, leaving only forty people living". Herat was the capital city of Persians.

BTW for others the information provided by 92.117.63.177 can be rejected if we takes facts into consideration, Regardless to what we say here there are some who claim God had a son who was also Persian, please provide source to your comments. Anyways Khalili's father was killed because he was the head of Safi tribal leader and a main opposition to modernizations of the King of Afghanistan who was fallowing Ata Turk and Raza Shah, also his comments regarding Safi killing was all Gov- vs Tribal People please refer to the Book by Varton Gregorians [Emergence of Modern Afghanistan: Politics and Modernization published in 1969] which was the root of the Safi tribal uprising that Government almost lost control in 1940s where after the war Safi tribe was punished by Government and were send into Exile which included Khalili and his uncle who were the backbones of the uprise, send to Herat and many fled, Please refer to Before Taliban http://www.escholarship.org/editions/view?docId=ft3p30056w&chunk.id=d0e1865&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e1865&brand=eschol Bye Alishah85 (talk) 10:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Accuracy of "Life" section

On 28 January 2009, Tajik placed an Template:Accuracy tag on the /* Life */ section of the article. Because the discussion above is voluminous and may not reflect the reasons for the tag, I would appreciate it if a list of the suggested inaccuricies could be provided. I assume that these are not just questions that can be debated, but are inaccuracies that could be fixed by library (not orginal) research. --Bejnar (talk) 03:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

here is a long document that I cannot read (I lack any proficiency in the language and script.). It might be useful. --Bejnar (talk) 05:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

User:Shiite_mullah

I alerted the administrators about this user and he is finally blocked. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 08:23, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Please remove abusive comments from talk section

Please remove all ignorant, abusive, nationalistic and illiterate remarks on the talk page as it is disrespectful to the memory of a great master. New information is now available in the form of the Memoirs of Khalili in conversation with daughter Marie. These are first hand and from a published source, backed up by audio recordings. Memoirs of Khalili — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wool Bridge (talk • contribs) 22:16, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 August 2017

There are many errors in this article about this great poet. Lots of Pashtoons (Pashto is a language comprised of 50% Persian, 50% modified persian) have put a lot of false things about him. It's like a group of French people taking control of the page of Shakespear and writing trash about him, while also claiming that he was a French, but his poems were in English. The only reason the Pashtons hate him and took control of this article is because his, the poet's, father worked for a Persian "king" (1929) in Afghanistan, and that King overthrow a Pashtoon king. So, as you can see, the Pashtons obviously have an enmity towards Persians and try to depict them nationalists, even though we are all one nation. Present day Afghanistan, Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and many other countries were part of Persia (informally known as Khorasan) and Tajik is a Chinese word for Persians, but some fools learned the history from Wikipedia thinks that Tajik is a language - which it is not. Anyways, I can't tell you the history of Persians, but these new people are ruing articles and must be banned and the article must be fixed by people who speaks Persian and are Persian. Changbroot (talk) 04:00, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 04:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

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