Talk:Khatanbaatar Magsarjav

Errata

This article could need some corrobation/citations from other sources. Some things that caught my eye were:

• that Magsarjav is supposed to have fought in Inner Mongolia in 1914. Other accounts say that all Mongolian troops were recalled at the end of 1913.
• Magsarjav's position prior to his deployment to Khovd. My impression is that Magsarjav's position came wih some responsibilities, I think Bawden even makes him the Mongol amban. So it seems strange that Magsarjav is supposed to have been essentially a farmer before. Actually, I would also like to see an independent citation for him being a farmer at all.

If someone knows the current official name for Shar süm, please add it into the article. Yaan (talk) 12:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

sacrifice to the flag ritual

IIRC, according to Choibalsan's biography (or at least that English translation thereof, see at the end of the article), the person who performed this ritual was Magsarjav himself. I think this is also mentioned in B. Rinchen's novel Uuriin Tuyaa (sp?), or at least W. Heissig says so somewhere in his "Ein Volk sucht seine Geschichte". But I will look this up again. Yaan (talk) 12:16, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Please do. It would also be good to have some secondary sources (other than a novel). Does Choibalsan approve of the practise in his book? Or why does he mention the incident? In any case, he's involved a little too closely to count as a truly independent source. --Latebird (talk) 20:52, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

In any case, this information is too parabolic and not encyclopedic. I'll have to remove it. Gantuya eng (talk) 01:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It's on p. 114 of "Mongolian Heroes..", also on p. 94-96 of "Ein Volk..." (1965 edition). I seem to remember it is also mentioned by V.Veit in "Die Mongolen - Beitraege zu ihrer Geschichte und Kultur", though also with attribution to Choibalsan. Bawden mentions human sacrifices in that period, but I did not look up into how much detail he goes (he probably refers to that same incident, but I am not sure he gives any names). I think Choibalsan would not have mentioned the incident if he did not approve, or if he found it unnotable. Therefore I also don't see how this information should not fit here, especially with the qualifier "according to ...".

On another note, though, it may well be that Choibalsan was mixing up things. Some pages after p. 114 he says that Magsarjav (or his troops, not so clear in that case) later also sacrificed three Kazakh robbers to the flag. According to Heissig, roughly same page as above, Herrmann Consten (a German traveller who happened to be at Khovd at that time, and later wrote a book about it) heard from eyewitnesses that Dambijantsan had killed three Kazakh robbers this way. So maybe one could assume that Choibalsan, or his sources, were mixing up Magsarjav and Dambijantsan, and Kazakh and Chinese. Or that there were several such incidents, or that Consten was mixing things up. But all of this would be original research. "According to" is just the way to go here, IMO. Yaan (talk) 09:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

So what we know is that the practise wasn't entirely unheard of, but may or may not have actually happened in this specific case. I think under those circumstances it's better to leave it away, until we find reliable secondary sources providing the necessary analysis. If the available literature ultimately just cites Choibalsan, then all we really have is a rumour. I also don't like to mention such things without explaining their significance in the cultural context of the time. --Latebird (talk) 23:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

But would not even a rumour be notable enough to cite on WP, if it keeps being mentioned in secondary sources? And I don't think an incident turns into a rumour just because some sources (seem to?) conflict.

I don't see much cultural context being mentioned in Third Punic War, but I guess we could try to use Choibalsan (in order to raise the morale of the troops) or Heissig (old shamanist ritual). Yaan (talk) 12:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Bawden actually says on p.197 that "some say it was Magsarjav, others say it was Dambijantsan" (not an exact quote). Maybe it would be appropriate to at least put this into the article, lest someone takes the other sources at face value? Yaan (talk) 13:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The punic wars have a Wikipedia article (several, actually) explaining their historical and cultural significance. Do we have enough reliable material to create Sacrifice to the flag? I could only find a handful of sources even mentioning the term. They make it look like a Chinese habit from the 19th century, maybe earlier. I'm not aware of any instances in Mongolia before the early 20th century, so I'd be reluctant to assume a shamanistic background. But I have yet to find anything even resembling an explanation, so that's all mostly speculation. --Latebird (talk) 00:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Prime minister

It's quite clear that he acted as prime minister under Ungern von Sternberg. A quick search on google books for 'magsarjav prime' brings up Twentieth Century Mongolia by Baabar, and the snippet shown confirms this. We can discuss whether that qualifies him as "Prime Minister of Mongolia" in the official list, but the information as such should go back into the article. --Latebird (talk) 16:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

In Mongolian that section seems to read (Nüüdel Suudal, UB 2006, vol.II, p.222) "Baruun zamyg tsagaantnaas chölöölöhöör mordson S. Hasbaatar, [etc] nar Baruun Mongold oron nutgiin "Zasgiin garzryg" Dörvöd dalai han Tümendelgerjavaar tolgoiluulan bui bolgoson baina. Oiruudig huvsgalyn heregt tatan oroltsuulahyn tuld iim bie daasan tür zuuryn zasag heregtei baisan bololtoi. 1921 ony 7 dugaar saryn 21-nd Ungeriin sergeesen Zasgiin gazryn said Magsarjav Uliastaid genet hödlön hamt baisan tsagaan orosuudyg hyadan Ardyn zasgiin tald urvaj orloo. (emph. mine). Unfortunately I am not really sure what "Zasgiin gazryn said" means in this context, but I won't rule out it could be interpreted as just "minister in the government". Maybe a good question for some native speaker? Yaan (talk) 19:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

The English version explicitly names him as prime minister: "Prime Minister Magsarjav or Ungern's government quietly decided to throw in his lot with the People's government..." --Latebird (talk) 21:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

But the english version is just the translation, and it seems somewhat alone in making Magsarjav prime minister. I really think the Mongolian version would be more relevant here, provided we can find out what "zasgiin gazryn said" means. Yaan (talk) 14:50, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, I think the timeframe is incorrect in any case (plus it is unsourced): Baabar says earlier (p.215 in the Mongolian version) that Ungern's prime minister was some Manzshir hutagt Tserendorj, and that Magsarjav was "only" commander-in-chief. And it seems strange that a prime minister would be sent to Uliastai when the Bogd Khan and Ungern are based in Hüree. If anything, it would make sense that Magsarjav was prime minister after Hüree had fallen to the revolutionaries. That march 13th date is, I think, the date of the formation of the revolutionary provisional government (that's what apparently is supposed to make Chagdarjav Magsarjav's successor). I am afraid it might not be related to Magsarjav at all. Yaan (talk) 14:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Baabar's translator making such a fundamental mistake? Of course that's possible, but it would be really annoying... I'll see if I can ping some native speakers about it as well. --Latebird (talk) 21:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi all! "Zasgiin gazriin said" - The prime minister of the government:

• Zasgiin gazar - The Government
• Said - a Minister, for example: Yerunhii said - The prime minister

Khatan Baatar Magsarjav had been the second prime minister of Mongolia until the 13-th, March of 1921 (only for a month). And he was appointed as the minister of the ministry of armed forces in 1922. --Enerelt (talk) 01:38, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

What happened on March 13th? And how come Magsarjav is supposed to have been prime minister in July when he was already replaced in March? I still think something does not really add up. Yaan (talk) 12:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Magsarjav was appointed commander-in-chief of Mongolian troops (Russian troops were led by Ungern). Jalkhanz Khutuktu Damdinbazar was appointed Chairman of the Council of Ministers (=Prime Minister) (Дэндэв Л. 2003. ХХ зууны монголын туухийн эх сурвалж (Автономит Монгол улсын уеийн онцлог баримт бичгууд) (1911–1921). Улаанбаатар: Битсервис). Later, short before seizure of power by the Reds, he gave his seal to Manjushri Khutuktu Tserendorj91.76.11.76 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC).