Talk:Khirbat al-Tannur

Mixup, picture

This picture from Khalidi, 1992-book is at the start, on p.XI.

Also; there is a mixup between this village and Allar, Jerusalem, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 20:49, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Khirbat al-Tannur versus Allar — merge proposal

Even though there seems to have been some historical connection between Khirbat al-Tannur and Allar, Jerusalem, they were not the same place. They were approximately 1.5 km apart. Not sure if this map link is robust. I see them described as twin villages rather than the same village. Zero^talk 14:53, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Palestine Remembered write "At one point Khirbat al-Tannur was also known by 'Allar al-Sufla (relative to current 'Allar before destruction)" under "Town's name through history". They have map of the Jerusalem Subdistrict. As we can see, nearly all of the villags are close to each other.

Gilabrand must stop removing Palestine Remembered from External links. It is a good source and that is why nearly every article about the depopulated villages link to it. --IRISZOOM (talk) 05:55, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I am rather 'inclusionnist': my mind is that the more article, the better. In the current case, I don't see any issue in talking about a hamlet given 2nd sources considered usefull to do so. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:40, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Palestine Remembered

Palestine Remembered is an Advocacy group website. It is not considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. Nearly every article about the depopulated villages may link to it but being a "good source" has nothing to do with it.--Geewhiz (talk) 13:53, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

And still you decided to cite it yesterday. That you think it is an advocacy group is not a good reason for the removal. Your latest reason is that it is cited in the article. That does not mean that it can not be in the External links. Why do you not check the policies before talking about what can be used? Even if it is not a good source as you allege, that would still not be a reason enough to not link to it.

Are you going to join the discussion about the merge tag you put up? This is not going to be one of those times you tag something and ignore it later. --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:56, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

It is not an RS but I deliberately used it as a reference until a better one can be found because I thought it would make you happy. And yes, if it is cited in the article, it is not the norm to add it again in external links.--Geewhiz (talk) 15:14, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I have added a map and several pieces of information that reinforce the fact that this was not a self-standing village. It was part of Allar and should be merged.--Geewhiz (talk) 15:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

So you did that just go get it removed from External links? Because I did not say "add this and source it with this". I have not asked you to make "me happy". It is about getting it right. Palestine Remembered is a good source and that is why it is accepted here (used on nearly 700 articles). That you do not agree is not a reason enough. It is based on authors like Walid Khalidi. Their village profiles is very informative. The link to that gets lost when only including in the References section. Of course it can be linked again. --IRISZOOM (talk) 15:29, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Reinforce the fact? Really? You did not know it before yesterday. And now you are changing your mind to that it was not a "self-standing village". You said before that "it was "the same village". Petersen says it is a twin village. Palestine Remembered does not say either that it was the same village. I have already included what they have said. Be more specific about the others and the map. The map does not show them as the same village. --IRISZOOM (talk) 15:51, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Khirbet Tannur is not a village, it is a farm on the outskirts of Allar built on top of a Crusader monastery that overlooks a spring. It does not appear on the British Mandate map as a twin village or any village at all. It appears as a monastery/church. About PR, read the discussion here [1] and see that this article was not passed as a "good article" until palestineremembered was removed. Here is another discussion where the reliability of PR is challenged [2].--Geewhiz (talk) 15:57, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Again, even if Palestine Remembered is not a RS, it does not mean that we can not link to it in the External links. WP:ELMAYBE say "Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources". Their village profiles is very informative and that is why it is included on so many articles.

Petersen says it is a twin village. Walid Khalidi seems to separate it in his list. I am not sure as I do not have All That Remains: The Palestinian Villages Occupied and Depopulated by Israel in 1948. --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:14, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Khalidi (All that Remains) is the most scientific list of depopulated localities. It says that the place was abandoned in the late 19th century but repopulated in the 20th century. Khalidi says that the Palestine Index Gazetteer (1945) classified it as a hamlet (rather than as a village or a ruin). I don't know what the exact definition of "hamlet" is, but it denotes a population of some sort, perhaps seasonal. It isn't shown as a ruin on Mandate-era maps either. The two censuses and the 1945 village survey don't mention it, but that proves nothing as tiny places were often amalgamated in the list with nearby larger places. I see very little evidence that it was a part of Allar in the mandate period, so I don't see a case for merger. Besides, there is enough archaeological material on this site to justify an article regardless of its nature in the modern period. Zero^talk 10:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

On a separate issue, I don't like using Palestine Remembered as a source for material not cited to a source, and prefer to examine the cited source in other cases if possible. Most of its basic data comes from Khalidi's book, which satisfies RS for sure. Both Huldra and I have copies, feel free to ask. An example where P.R. is imperfect is the population of 400 in the 19th century, which in P.R. is just an entry in a table. Khalidi writes that an 1875 visitor gave the 400 figure for a "village in the same area with a similar name 'Allar al-Tahta'", which means "lower Allar" just like "Allar al-Sufla" does. Khalidi is indicating that he is not 100% sure it is the same village. He need not have worried, since Guerin (1860s) reports that Allar al-Tahta is one of the names locals used for this place (Judée II, 380). On the other hand, when P.R. publishes books or articles by named expert authors, I see no reason to avoid them (just like JVL). Zero^talk 10:59, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I searched in Walid Khalidi's book on Google Books but there is not much you can access on this one. I saw that part about hamlet but was not sure. This map on Palestine Remembered seem to come from that book on page 264. Can you confirm it?

Correct, Khalidi has a map like that for each subdistrict. Zero^talk 23:04, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

So Petersen, Khalidi and Palestine Remembered say the opposite to what Gilabrand claims they do. I have also asked her to tell more about the other sources she is referring to. Here is the full map. It is not identified as a ruin ("khirba", not to be confused with "Khirbat") or village but not either as monastery. As you say, it was not part of Allar then and is certainly notable regardless of that. We also have several articles about depopulated Palestinian hamlets.

I agree with you but issue here is if Palestine Remembered can be under External links, which it certainly can. --IRISZOOM (talk) 13:39, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I think it can be given as an external reference if it contains useful additional information. Zero^talk 23:04, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Today I looked at the 1:20,000 cadastral map reproduced in the Atlas of Palestine (2nd edition, map 440). It shows the boundary between the village lands of Bayt 'Itab and Allar passing close to the south and east of this site, with Khirbat al-Tannur on the Bayt 'Itab side of the boundary. Which is further reason to doubt it was part of Allar. Zero^talk 06:53, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Okay. There is more than doubt - I would say totally groundless - as the sources and map Gilabrand is referring say the opposite to what she claims. Atleast Petersen, Khalidi and Palestine Remembered. She has not explained what the other say. I have not found any support for her claim there either. Yes, it is also called "Allar al-Sifla" but that does not mean that it was a part of that village, which it looks like she means. It is not easy to know when she is not telling. It is also not identified as a monastery or church on the map.

Salman Abu Sitta also identify Khirbat al-Tannur separately in THE PALESTINIAN NAKBA 1948 The Register of Depopulated Localities in Palestine (page 13). --IRISZOOM (talk) 17:30, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Gilabrand has as many times before stopped respond. It has been proven that Khirbat al-Tannur was not a part of Allar. It is time to correct the info and it was wrong from the beginning that it was changed before the opposite was proven. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:44, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

I have stopped responding because you are not listening. I added a map and several pieces of information from different time periods that show it is a core neighborhood of Allar that grew up around the spring. Most of the geographical/historical data on the Allar page is about this location. It is marked as a monastery on the map (see the black square with a faint cross on top). At least there is one benefit from your stalking: Pages that nobody gave a damn about before are suddenly attracting attention. "Village" lists drawn up by Palestinian advocacy sites have been circulating for years now, and copied by everyone and his grandmother without question. The time has come to look closer, and with your new-found interest in this part of the world (is Sweden is boring?), I hope we can work together to improve Wikipedia.--Geewhiz (talk) 06:30, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

It is easy to say that but the fact is that it is not true and you have gottten several good replies and questions. I have already explained to you about your sources. The map do not show it as a monastery. Look again. Khalidi, Palestine Remembered and Petersen say the opposite to what you claim.

I am not "stalking" you and I have always edited articles about the topic. And I am not saying you are stalking me because you have edited articles after me, including reverting me on articles you have never edited or edited long ago. During the last months, I have seen you edit several articles about depopulated villages and others about the conflict. What I have seen is deleting and misrepresentation of material, which is why I have corrected many of those articles and told you about. Today, you again deleted that Khirbat Jiddin was a depopulated Palestinian village. You say you want to "look closer on the 'village' lists" but that does not mean that you can remove that Khirbat Jiddin was depopulated, changing Khirbat al-Tannur from a village to a part of Allar or as you did on Al-Ras al-Ahmar, where you changed it from being a depopulated village in the Safad Subdistrict to being a village in Area C. When told about it, you requested "proof that they are not the same". Then you reverted yourself but only one part so incorrect info were there until another user reverted you. That is not how you improve Wikipedia. --IRISZOOM (talk) 11:03, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

No. Peterson writes "Allar al-Sufla (also known as Khirbet al-Tannur)." Same for Boas and Pringle. Palestine Remembered is not an RS. The map certainly does show a black square denoting a religious building. You are indeed stalking me and leaving unpleasant comments about me wherever you go, in edit summaries and talk pages. You are creating a hostile atmosphere on Wikipedia. And then you "wonder" why I don't answer you.--Geewhiz (talk) 11:51, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Of course the name itself does not mean that they were the same. Petersen says in fact that they are twin villages. You were the one referring to Palestine Remembered.

You said that it is marked as a monastery on the map and talked about "the black square with a faint cross on top". Now you are changing to that it is only a black square denoting a religious building. It shows a black square but nothing more than that.

This is laughable. You started writing things like "ce poor English" and "correct mangled English added by stalker". And just look at your first reply here today, is that something that does not create a hostile atmosphere? Certainly not. Now you reverted me on another article so with your logic, you are "stalking" me. In my edit summaries and talk pages, I have given you explanations to why your changes have not been acceptable, like you did on the articles about Yibna and Zarnuqa. I have also warned you that you will be reported if you keep removing material etc. As I have said, today, you again removed that Khirbat Jiddin was a depopulated Palestinian village. That is not acceptable. --IRISZOOM (talk) 12:27, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

When I wrote about mangled English, it was a statement of fact. Your name was not mentioned. If you believe you are the author, so be it. Neither the subject of this article nor Khirbat Jiddin are "villages" in the normal sense. I have brought sources that back this up. That is what Wikipedia is about: doing our best to present readers with reliably sourced and accurate information about the subjects that they are researching. Palestine Remembered is a POV source that lumps together a large number of "place names" that nobody has ever bothered to check. I will continue to work here with the goal of improving Wikipedia and look forward to you joining me rather than fighting me. All in all, I believe we have the same goal.--Geewhiz (talk) 12:47, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

You wrote it after me and also added "stalker" in another sentence. Do not try to disclose who you were referring to. It gets ironic when you talk about "hostile atmosphere" and "fighting". When we are now talking about this, could you not try focus more on the formatting I and others have to correct after you? You have been told before how to format the refs.

Khirbat al-Tannur seems to have been classified as hamlet. Then we can say that instead of making up things that it was a part of Allar. All of the sources you have brought say the opposite to what you have claimed. It is more than Palestine Remembered. You have been told about both Walid Khalidi and Salman Abu Sitta. --IRISZOOM (talk) 13:02, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

hires fragment of same map

Tannur (lower left) is shown as an irregular blob, not as a church. In the upper right of the same fragment you can see how churches, monasteries and convents appear on the map. There are many other irregular blobs on this map, of different shapes. The map legend provides no guidance for these blobs, though it does indicate that a ruin is shown as a triangle of three dots. It is true that it is not shown as a village, but it isn't shown as a church either. This matches Khalidi's guidance that it was classed as a hamlet. This more formal map with a higher resolution shows it as an unclassified cluster of buildings (not as a church or a ruin). The 1946 1:100,000 map looks almost the same. Zero^talk 13:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Allar Sifla/Sufleh was the same place as Khirbat Tannur. It had a historical connection with Allar, but no evidence for a 20th century relationship has been provided. This travel article says that it was occupied by villagers from Bayt Itab, which proves that it was not a hamlet of Allar in the modern period. As I showed above, it was owned by Bayt Itab. The reason the residents had an argument with Allar is obvious from the land ownership map: the houses are on Bayt Itab land and the spring is on Allar land. Zero^talk 13:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Now P.R. is gone as a source, so quit arguing about it. Zero^talk 13:35, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I have now changed to "was a Palestinian Arab hamlet in the Jerusalem Subdistrict, near Allar". This matches what we have found in the sources. --IRISZOOM (talk) 19:16, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Suggested merge of this article with Allar, Jerusalem

User:Huldra, as I'm sure that you're aware, this article (Khirbat al-Tannur), happens to be the same article that deals with the lower Allar, Jerusalem. Earlier, I had thought to raise this issue with you, but got somehow sidetracked. Do you think that we should start here a "merge request"? I think that the question may have been asked before by other editors, but they sweem to have been uncertain about its location.Davidbena (talk) 05:24, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Davidbena no, I dont agree to merger. Look at SWP map 17; there they are called Allar es Busl and Allar es Sifleh, respectively. (The articles are a mess, though....I'll try to clean them up), Huldra (talk) 21:07, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I know that there is an upper and lower Allar. This article treats on the lower Allar, but Allar, Jerusalem at first spoke about both Allars - the upper and the lower. I see now that it has been corrected. Everything is Okay now. By the way, the upper Allar no longer has houses, since the houses there were all destroyed.Davidbena (talk) 21:42, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, Khalidi, 1992, treats then as two different villages...and we normally follow him. But yeah: they were often treated together, Huldra (talk) 21:56, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

He (Khalidi) rightly did so, since there is at least 1 kilometer in distance from one place to the other place. I lived in Mata for 8 years and would frequent both places. In the Upper Allar I remember discovering a rock-cut tomb where the entrance was laid open and the complete skeleton of a person was inside. That was eerie! The Lower Allar has many of its houses still standing.Davidbena (talk) 22:21, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Spooky indeed! ....These two villages have been a mess-up for some time, and have been on my "to do" list forever...But as always, other things have interfered, Huldra (talk) 23:03, 5 August 2018 (UTC)