Talk:Khmer Krom

Descendants

This is indeed an article that needs to be written as it is an important issue in that part of the world. However, it is obvious by the second paragraph that this article is not written from a neutral point of view and, in fact, is errant in many of its facts. One example is from the second paragraph where the author states that the Khmer living inside the borders of Vietnam are the original inhabitants of that area. I don't know where to start with this sentance! If what the author intended to say was true, it would properly be worded "the Khmer living inside the borders of present-day Vietnam are the descendants of the original inhabitants of the area. However, even that would not be accurate since the presence of the Cham ethinc group and their Kingdom of Champa predate the arrival of the Khmer in South-East Asia by centuries.

This article on an important issue is in desparate need of cleaning up.

Also, I would like to suggest a similar article on the "Khmer Surin" or the Khmer living within the borders of Thailand. While they are not nearly as oppressed as the Khmer Krom, they do have a unique culture and a substantially different dialect (Northern Khmer) that some linguists consider a separate language. WilliamThweatt 02:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

You're wrong about the Cham. The Cham did not live in the delta of the Mekong, they lived further north, in what is now central Vietnam. The most ancient inhabitants of the Mekong delta, as proven by historical sources and archeology, are Khmer people. Hardouin 12:18, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Been busy lately, haven't had time to check back here. You're right, Hardouin, thanks for the correction. Some of my text was deleted probably before I saved the page (got a new laptop for Christmas and my palm keeps hitting the touch pad and moving my cursor). As I intended to write, it is the common consensus that the Khmer-speaking ethnic group originated somewhere around the Himalayas in what is now either Tibet or India. As they migrated south into the Southeast Asian peninsula, they displaced and/or intermingled with the ethnic groups already present which were of Austronesian extraction. Keep in mind that what is now the Mekong Delta region was, at this time, still mostly underwater, only recently (geologically speaking) being formed by the deposits of silt from the Mekong. During this period, what is now Phnom Penh was practically on the coast. As the Delta Region formed it was constantly being fought over by Austronesian tribes (both from the Hue region (Chams) and from Java) and Khmeric tribes. Of the current Nation-States in the region, Cambodia does probably have the best (oldest) claim on the area, but to say they were the original inhabitants of the area is not only unverifyable, but most likely inaccurate.WilliamThweatt 01:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Population of the Khmer Krom

The issue of the population of the Khmer Krom has been talked over and over again in the article about Vietnam and some other articles. So far, after more than a year, the only sources available for the 7 millions Khmer Krom is the Khmer Krom Federation (an anti Vietnamese organization) and 1 or 2 more personal websites created on free web host provider like geocities. I have 2 domain names registered for $8.99 per year plus a cheap web host for $1/month, I could have written anything like "I'm the father of all the Khmer Krom in the world", would you quote that into this article and all articles about the Khmer Krom as well??

Just because the Khmer Krom Federation is the only source doesn't necessarily mean its inaccurate (although I agree with you that it probably is an inflated number). Futhermore, while it may be fair to characterize the Khmer Krom Federation as "an anti Vietnamese organization", a case can also be made that, based on official policies, the Vietnamese government is "anti Khmer Krom"; so their statistics should not be accepted as gospel truth either. To compromise, I added a sentence to the "official" government numbers stating that the figure is disputed by the Khmer Krom. This maintains factual integrity and NPOV while presenting both sides of the issue.--WilliamThweatt 00:56, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The figure claimed by the KKF should be discarded altogether because there is no way for them to know the number of pure blooded Khmer Krom remaining in Viet Nam. During the Lon Nol regime, a lot of them have moved back to Cambodia to participate in the ethnic cleansing campaign against the Vietnamese living there. They later probably got killed by the Khmer Rouge. So, the 1 million figure is correct.

In order to maintain the NPOV policy, we have to be impartial. To claim that the 1 million figure is correct and that there's no way the KKF figure can be accurate qualifies as original research. As long as there is a verifiable source for both figures, we can't prefer one over the other.--WilliamThweatt 01:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the 7 million figure is not a verifiable source per the definition because it is a self-published source. While the 1 million figure is definitely a verifiable source as it is an official figure as well as being used by CIA World Fact Book, World Bank, etc.--lt2hieu2004 16:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Population

I've changed the population to debated and add the Khmer Krom census. The population figure used by the CIA world book is drawn from the Vietnamese government. Vietnam can't be trusted when it comes to minorities in the country, epecially when it comes to Khmers. Vietnamese are very oppressive toward other people, they are not known for tolerance. Thats why many organization like the Degars and Khmer Krom seek to spread awareness of their existence. CanCanDuo 02:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Please see the above argument. The Khmer Krom Federation also has a political agenda and so their population figures are not reliable. It is also a self-published source (another reason it is not a reliable source). Government-published sources are considered reliable per WP:RS and WP:V. The fact that there are disputes should be mentioned in a separate section, not in the "official" population area.--William Thweatt ^Talk | ^Contribs 03:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Btw, WilliamThweatt, care to explain why you keep changing the page to add the 8 millions figure if you really think so?--82.23.6.177 15:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no official population area yet, it just states origin. You act as if Vietnam is does not have an agenda against minorities. When it comes to khmer Krom, there are no trusted source. CanCanDuo 23:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you don't know this but the highest ranking government official in Vietnam for the last 6 years (the secretary general of the Communist Party) - Nong Duc Manh - is of ethnic minority origin (Tay). Beside, we have been having this discussion for such a long time that I think it's pointless to restart the same discussion all over again. See the Vietnam Talk Page, if you are a sensible person you will understand why the figure from KKF is not mentioned. Until you can provide a single verifiable source that use the 7 millions figure, I don't think it is constructive or wise to restart the same old argument.--lt2hieu2004 02:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

History section heavily biased

The history section reads like a drama and not an encyclopedia article. No supporting evidence is provided. I've tagged it with the POV tag. DHN 01:57, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Massacre of Vietnamese by Khmer Serei, Khmer Rouge and Khmer Krom

Just visit these sites.

http://khmercanada.site.voila.fr/atrocites.htm

http://khmercanada.site.voila.fr/racisme.htm

It first occured in 1970 in Cambodia with the Lon Nol regime and then in 1978 with Pol Pot regime, known as the "Ba Chuc Massacre", kinda huge pogrom. I've made a report on Ba Chuc and Phi Lai. Vietnamese peasants have always feared the threat of Khmer upraisal in that Vietnamese "Far West" of the Mekong delta. I've been in Ba Chuc and Phi Lai during my trip there on last november.

Takima 02:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

1970 Lon Nol “Coup” and the massacre of Vietnamese ethnics in Cambodia

After the 168 Tet Offensive, the US Government authorized the South Vietnamese troops to cross the Cambodian border in pursuit of “VC” insurgents to search and destroy VC “sanctuaries”, prelude and foreplay of the “Phoenix Operation” to annihilate both internal and external complicities with the VC. At the same time, the CIA favored Lon Nol to overthrow Prince Norodom Sihanouk for his policies of neutrality to preserve Cambodia from the neighboring war. This border crossing by the South Vietnamese troops awakened that old feeling of being conquered by the Vietnamese not long ago, feeling of vietnamophobia. Furthermore and during the colonial period of French Indochina, Vietnam has been much favored in all aspects, at the expense of Cambodia and Laos. Let’s take just an example to make it clear. There was no secondary school in Cambodia. Young Prince Norodom Sihanouk had to go to “Lycée Chasseloup Laubat” in Saigon for his secondary schooling until his intronization in 1940 after the short French Siamese War, when France had to give the Western part of Cambodia to Thailand (new and pan-hinduist name of Siam in 1939) under the pressure of Japan, at the time when France was defeated in Europe. Having no secondary education in Cambodia, the indigenous higher ranks in civil service were in the hands of Vietnamese, as well as local economics.

Takima 17:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Be serious

When the delegations of Cambodia, France, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, Laos, the People's Republic of China, the State of Vietnam, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United Kingdom, and the United States met in July 1954 in Geneva in an attempt to end the fighting in Indochina, the Royal Government of Cambodia raised the problem of Khmer territories of Cochinchina, asking the Conference to take it up at the same time. The Conference noted the specific reservations formally made by the Cambodian Delegation as to Cambodia's legitimate claims on the Khmer territories, now parts of South Vietnam.

What about Russian claims on Yukon, British Columbia, Washington, Oregon and Northern California?

In the 60s, Norodom Sihanouk addressed:

“[…] Supposons que nous puissions la Cochinchine ou même qu’on nous l’offre, il est à peine nécessaire de nous dire que la coexistence entre 5 millions de Khmers et 12 millions de Vietnamiens ne serait pas sans danger. Nous serions seulement une minorité et nous serions bientôt dominés par une masse étrangère dans laquelle la nation khmère disparaîtrait”. (Agence Khmère Presse, Pnom Penh, p. 4, 2 mars 1962).

Takima 18:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

This raises an issue. Vietnam also claims the Paracel Islands, but China controls them. Joshotoken (talk) 21:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

NOV of Current Situation

Need more verifiable source. Magnifier (talk) 11:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Many Khmers use the word "Yuon" to address Vietnamese...

...especially in an angry way. Where shall I put this information into? This article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yjfstorehouse (talk • contribs) 05:17, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Maps

http://khmerkromngo.org/gImages/kampucheakromMapL.jpg

http://khmerkromngo.org/gImages/map5kk.jpg

http://khmerkromngo.org/gImages/map/KhmerEmpire.jpg

sources

http://khmerkromngo.org/map/map.htm

http://www.unpo.org/article/8856

http://khmerkromngo.org/

http://khmerkromngo.org/map/map.htm

http://www.khmerkrom.org/

http://www.khmerkrom.net/

http://vodhotnews.com/

http://www.vodhotnews.com/en/special-events/7391-the-64rd-anniversary-of-losing-kampuchea-krom-territorial-integrity-to-vietnam

8-Khmer Krom, Indigenous Peoples from Vietnam - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZb497b_6Oc

2-Khmer Krom, Indigenous Peoples from Vietnam - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UHq7WmZ8G0

4-Khmer Krom, Indigenous Peoples from Vietnam - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDT2rinrFNQ

6-Khmer Krom, Indigenous Peoples from Vietnam - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XipMMPkmLek

A one-hour long documentary on the Khmer Krom indigenous peoples from the Mekong Delta ...

5-Khmer Krom, Indigenous Peoples from Vietnam - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12n7HphTEkE

Khmer Krom - Indigenous Peoples from Vietnam - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1FCF62D2BCEAC6F7

9-Khmer Krom-Indigenous Peoples Human Rights Video - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxybkoHwsw

KhmerKrom indigenous in Vietnam, did notrecognize the ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFa2ereOlHQ

PM Hun Sen Speak about (Koh Trol Phu Quoc and Khmer Krom)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1j03EZvCk8

Rajmaan (talk) 05:27, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

http://www.ling.hawaii.edu/ldtc/languages/khmer/

http://www.khmerkrom.net/taxonomy/term/29?page=37 http://www.khmerkrom.net/node?page=63

http://www.khmerkrom.net/node/316

http://www.khmerkrom.net/node/325

useful material

Hi! Here some useful links:

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/vietnam0109web.pdf

http://www.caraweb.org/articles/kampuchea_krom.pdf

ATB
Wikirictor (talk) 12:04, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

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Mọi Miên

I saw so many Kinh Vietnamese people called whole Khmer people as "Mọi Miên", "Rợ Miên", even to mention Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen. Rarely, some people spell romanized "Kampuchea" or "khơ me". 2601:204:E37F:FFF1:D5DE:7A76:A8A1:2C44 (talk) 21:08, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

As a Chinese-Vietnamese born and grow up in HCMC/Saigon (whatever you called it), this is the first time I heard of "Rợ Miên", but I could explain the former one, which means "barbaric Khmer", which the Miên comes from the term "Cao Miên" is one of the translation of "Khmer", which is discrimination and like the N-word for the Khmer. I believe the latter sharing the same meaning. Kampuchea, I think, is one of the native translations for Cambodia/Cambodge, which was once used from the Khmer Rouge/Pol Pot regime (Democratic Kampuchea) to the Vietnamese government -friendly People Republic of Kampuchea before going back to "Cambodia" during the UN transition period. The "Khơ-me" is literally the Vietnamese translation and pronunciation of the "Khmer"

Dunghuy921 (talk) 06:31, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Human Rights Watch and Vietnam

Why is humans rights watch so biased and.anti vietnam? Perhaps the american withdrawal from vietnam left a sour taste in their mouth? I have noticed that they place vietnam very lowly, just slightly above china (prc) and even worse than certain countries in the middle east and africa. Norewritingofhistory (talk) 02:01, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Sources are a mess

Most, if not all of these sources are inaccurate and are heavily biased. Using information from random khmer websites and youtube videos, it seems very fishy. Norewritingofhistory (talk) 06:28, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

KKF and various sources based on myth and oral history

The KKF and any other related sources are unreliable and disregards NPOV, as they are politically motivated and misinformation is constantly twisted and manipulated. Most historians when writing articles about khmer krom only rely on oral history and myths which does not make an article accurate nor truthful. Anyone can say anything and that'll be put on a book and be seen as truthful, and anyone can edit it into wikipedia and twisting it by not providing author's context, which is something you would have to edit and undo by checking every single source one by one. Without source clarification and checking, the author loses their own prestige via misplacing and out of context quoting. Such a means as a basis for articles loses its credibility. If that is how wikipedia operates then it has such poor integrity on niche topics like this and can severly affect a reader's POV. 120.21.165.208 (talk) 13:46, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the fact that the KKF is an unreliable source, its estimation of the Khmer Krom population is clearly biased and politically motivated.

Nevertheless this estimation is the only reference to the KKF in this article and other references seem pretty accurate. I do not really see the supposed bias in the article apart from the population estimation. Pierrevang3 (talk) 18:07, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Did you not read the second half? Khmer krom history relies heavily on myths and oral history, for example the boiling tea on head excerpt. The source is... because someone said so. That's called self reporting and not based on actual records. 1.43.160.10 (talk) 06:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

What’s the matter with the second half? There isn’t any mention of the boiling tea in the article? Pierrevang3 (talk) 11:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC)