Talk:Kibbutz

Adding more in hatnote

Kibbutz (album) should be added as part of one hatnote. Also, another hatnote containing a link to recently created dabpage Kibbitz (disambiguation) should be added as well. --George Ho (talk) 06:08, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I made the changes you requested. Kibbitz, which is where Kibbitz (disambiguation) redirects, includes disambiguations of kibbutz as well, so maybe "Not to be confused with Kibbitz." isn't the best language for the hatnote. What do you think? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:31, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

PS - Thank you for archiving the ancient discussions on this page. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:31, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

@George Ho: How about moving the Kibbitz (disambiguation) page to Kibbutz (disambiguation). Kibbitz had only two entries with no links to any individual articles, on the other hand, Kibbutz had three entries linking to different links. What do you think? regards, DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 07:14, 6 January 2017 (UTC).

If you click the "View user right group" in my profile or somewhere, you see that I gave up my rights to edit ECP. Id est I won't edit this page or any other EC-protected pages. George Ho (talk) 07:49, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm confused by the situation. "Kibbitz" redirects to "Kibitzer". I can't find anything to verify that "kibbitz" is an accepted alternate spelling of "kibitz". In any case, I don't think that part of the hat belongs here. I think it's potentially misleading. A hat to distinguish kibitzing from kibbutzim may be in order. Perhaps "Kibbitz" should redirect here as a misspelling of kibbutz. I just don't see the value in a hat warning of potential confusion between kibbutzim and a made-up word. Joefromrandb (talk) 01:31, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually, Wiktionary gives "kibbitz" as an alternate spelling of "kibitz". Further, the disambig page links to articles for "Bernie Kibbitz" and "Sid Kibbitz", so I guess redirecting it here is a non-starter. I still share Malik's concern that, "not to be confused with Kibbitz" is less that ideal. Joefromrandb (talk) 01:44, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 May 2017

The first religious kibbutz was not Ein Tzurim - it was Kibbutz Tirat Tzvi, founded in 1937 in the Bet Shean Valley. 212.150.177.199 (talk) 10:57, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 16:42, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

"Regular plural"

@User:Malik Shabazz: I modeled that after the article "Goy", which says, "regular plural goyim". "Regular plural" may not be the best choice of words for either article, I admit. I was basically acknowledging that plurals ending in "s" for Hebrew loanwords occasionally appear in English, and while they're technically not incorrect, they are less-preferred than their "im"-ending counterparts. While there's no question that "kibbutzim" is the plural of "kibbutz", I do find dictionary entries for "kibbutzes" (and "goys"). Joefromrandb (talk) 05:00, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. It's a phrase I don't think I had seen before. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 11:03, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Westermarck effect

I'll be straightforward here in saying that I'm not super informed on the finer points of wikipedia editing, namely what causes this article to be unable to be edited, but under "sexual imprinting" the entry on the Westermarck effect cites out to this page in saying that said effect can be seen in the Kibbutz system, but there is no citation there nor is there any citation here as to who exactly is asserting this. On the main page for the Westermarck effect there is one single source that appears to back up that claim, but in the same article under "criticisms" it asserts that, in fact, another study made, arguably, a more solid assertion that the Westermarck effect was not in play, as they found co-reared peers may not have married but DID report substantial attraction to each other.

So why exactly is the claim about the Westermarck effect supposedly being in play here not cited here, in this article that by not being able to be edited to me suggests that it should be held to a higher level of scrutiny, and why exactly is it not really mentioned that the claim, which is held up by one single citation, based entirely on conjecture, has as equally as much evidence refuting it? If a potentially controversial subject like the Westermarck effect is going to be mentioned at all then care should be undertaken to ensure it's actually presented accurately. Yes, some have, with no solid evidence, attributed the conservatism to the Westermarck effect, but further studies have laid a solid case for that not being accurate.

I don't even know if this is how one would go about suggesting a change to this, but that's largely because I haven't figured out why I can't edit this but I can edit other pages. Perhaps it's because it's deemed "high importance", but if it's so important then I really feel like it's important enough that a random guy like me shouldn't be finding material to take issue with on such a basic levelPenguinato23 (talk) 01:34, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Penguinato23. This article is "edit-protected" because, like most articles related to Israel and Palestine, it is subject to a restriction that allows only editors who have made at least 500 edits and whose accounts have been registered at least 30 days to edit them.

This is intended to be an encyclopedia article for the general reader about what a kibbutz is, what their history is, their role (historic and current) in Israel and the Yishuv (the Jewish community in Mandatory Palestine before the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948), and so on. Part of that history, of course, is that children on many (perhaps most) kibbutzim were raised communally. The question of whether the Westermarck effect is real, and whether it was evident among children raised on kibbutzim, is probably a little more detail than the typical reader who is interested in a kibbutz wants. That's really more of a psychological or sexual issue than one of Israeli culture and history.

I hope that's a little bit helpful. Talk:Westermarck effect or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality might be a better place to suggest improvements concerning Wikipedia's coverage of the Westermarck effect. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:23, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I have to contradict to Malik Shabazz. The Kibbutz are, from a ethological perspective, an extremely relevant social experiment. People will come here not just out of interest in Kibbutz, but also out of interest in for instance collective child rearing.

Now the Westermarck effect is highly speculative. If it is mentioned at all, then it will be of the greatest importance to add information on the fact that this effect is a) speculative, and b) has research indicating the opposite. If this is not done, we are basically, potentially, keeping a myth alive.

I concretely suggest either adding the following line:

"A 2009 study by Eran Shor and Dalit Simchai demonstrated that although most peers who grew up closely together in the Israeli kibbutzim did not marry one another, they did report substantial attraction to co-reared peers. The authors conclude that the case of the kibbutzim actually provides little support for the Westermarck effect."

Or removing the reference to the supposed "Westermarck effect" entirely.

Source: Shor, Eran; Simchai, Dalit (2009). "Incest Avoidance, the Incest Taboo, and Social Cohesion: Revisiting Westermarck and the Case of the Israeli Kibbutzim". American Journal of Sociology. 114 (6): 1803–1842. doi:10.1086/597178.FreieFF (talk) 15:59, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

External links modified

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 April 2018

The section on emotional involvement is not accurate. according Mordecai Kaffman's paper published in the american journal of psychiatry, "No evidence was found of unusual percentage of behavior problems attributable to emotional deprivation" The study can be found here: https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.117.8.732 , similar conclusions are reached by Leon Eisenberg and Peter B. Neubauer found here: http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0002-7138(09)61938-5/pdf , among others. I wish to update the section with more accurate information 91and71 (talk) 13:57, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:04, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Bettelheim

Perhaps when discussing Bettelheim's opinions on the psychology of kibbutzniks, it should be noted somewhere that he's been thoroughly discredited as an expert?
Although the article mentions at the end of the section anecdotal evidence proving him wrong on specific findings, the way it's written now overall, it doesn't even hint at those findings being anything other than mistaken conclusions of legit research by an actual scientist. So one would have to take the time to read Bettelheim's own wiki page to find out otherwise. That's a problem IMO.
Considering especially how... bold some of Bettelheim's cited opinions are, I don't think they should be presented as is without the context of him being basically a quack/fraud.--109.196.118.133 (talk) 18:16, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

If you wish to add any qualification of Bettleheim, you can open an edit request on this page. That should specify either A)the exact text you think needs to be removed or B)the text you'd like added and the existing text you think the addition should follow or C)the existing text you'd like changed and the exact text you'd like to see in its place. You will need to supply reliable sources that support any text changes you propose and ensure the proposed text otherwise complies with the core content policies. The original research policy is likely also relevant. I hope this helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Opinions and more opinions with little citation.

Seems that this whole article has been written in order to promote the socialist/collectivist agenda even though facts within the kibbutz themselves have shown, beyond doubt, that there had to be an adhesion to capitalistic principles in order for them to become something of a viable system. This is downplayed in the article whereas collectivist "benefits" are overly advertised. This whole article reminds me of the communist propaganda found in "encyclopaedias" like the "Great Soviet Encyclopaedia" where everything was great and advancing. But reality can't be altered with words on a site and Wikipedia needs to adhere to scientific evidence, ALWAYS accompanied by citations and discourage political malevolence, here in the form of political propaganda by ideologue editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by C R O M (talk • contribs) 20:38, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Substitute Terms

In the ideology of the kibbutz section there is a sentence that reads as follows: "Kibbutzim were run as collective enterprises within Israel's partly free market system". Wouldn't it be better to swap out partly free market system with mixed economy? Mixed economy is in my opinion correct technically & it is a neutral identification that doesn't have the negative baggage that free market does. GRosado 04:20, 6 June 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by GRosado (talk • contribs)

Fix a Typo

Can someone change the "leadig" to "leading" in "Ideological disputes were also widespread, leadig to painful splits"? Brobotics Brofessor (talk) 15:12, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. Noon (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Privatisation paragraph is useless

... to the user as it is now.

A. Nonsensical: the production in the privatised form looks more kibbutz-regulated than in the unprivatised form. Also, the sources are older (1989, 93) than the info (1999 and later)!?!

B. The info is too technical for the layman, and too poor fot the legally trained user.

C. The multitude of individual privatisation solution packages adopted by individual kibbutzim since 1999 is a basic info, and it's not even mentioned.

Who can fix it? Cheers, Arminden (talk) 07:27, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2019

Just a suggestion for updating a syntax error - the plural of kibbutz is used frequently(146 times if I remember correctly), while in Hebrew the correct phrase is קיבוצים(Kibbutzim, but that's loosely translated),in english, shouldn't it actually be kibbutzs? kibbutz's? 212.29.214.50 (talk) 12:10, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: See the lead. The plural is "kibbutzim". We use the native language's (sometimes transliterated) plural when that is the word most commonly used in English. See putto for another example. Nobody says "puttoes". – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:43, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

add a refernce

for "In a 1977 study, Fox[citation needed] " add this https://www.jstor.org/stable/1128480?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents -- Opalpolo (talk) 19:04, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Westermarck Effect, please add further research

I cannot edit this page, therefor I make the proposal here.

I refer to, among other things, this passage:

"This conservatism on the part of kibbutz children has been attributed to the Westermarck effect—a form of reverse sexual imprinting whereby even unrelated children, if raised together from an early age, tend to reject each other as potential partners."

The Westermarck effect is highly speculative, from my point of view unlikely to exist, and if we look a the Westermarck article on Wikipedia, we can see that there is substantial critisism from scientific sources. I quote:

"A 2009 study by Eran Shor and Dalit Simchai demonstrated that although most peers who grew up closely together in the Israeli kibbutzim did not marry one another, they did report substantial attraction to co-reared peers. The authors conclude that the case of the kibbutzim actually provides little support for the Westermarck effect." "Jesse Bering cites several studies that seem to contradict the standard view of the Westermarck effect as an innate learning process; instead, it may be a cultural phenomenon."

("Shor, Eran; Simchai, Dalit (2009). "Incest Avoidance, the Incest Taboo, and Social Cohesion: Revisiting Westermarck and the Case of the Israeli Kibbutzim". American Journal of Sociology. 114 (6): 1803–1842. doi:10.1086/597178. Bering, Jesse (17 Aug 2010). "Oedipus Complex 2.0: Like it or not, parents shape their children's sexual preferences". Scientific American. Retrieved 18 September 2014.")

Writing about the Westermarck effect without mentioning the research that indicates that this effect is probably non-existent, or at least purely cultural, is potentially keeping a myth alive.FreieFF (talk) 15:52, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 July 2020

Please delete "regular" from "regular plural" as there is no irregular plural of קיבוץ within Hebrew. SuzieMillen (talk) 00:15, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

To editor SuzieMillen:  done. I think the editor may have been thinking of a distinction between "kibbutzim" and "kibbutzes"? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 05:02, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 November 2020

Remove the WeWork advert, it's tangential at best, and does not justify it's own section. 2A02:C7F:361A:D00:3883:C1A8:B66D:42AA (talk) 01:38, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Removed as spammy and unsupported by the source, making it unsourced BLP claims. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:59, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

See also request

Please put Am Olam, a 19th century Jewish communal agrarian movement into see also. I would but page is protected, thank you. 69.120.202.15 (talk) 19:01, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Kibbutz datas from French

Hello, I let you know some google-translated datas from French wiki to possibly complete the "en" one.

Kibbutzim outside of Israel

The "Kibbutz Buchenwald"

The "Kibbutz Buchenwald" is an experience of resilience, self-management and agricultural training, after the liberation of the Nazi concentration camp Buchenwald in the spring of 1945. A group of sixteen young surviving men, initially, organized and formed the "Kibbutz Buchenwald", the first agricultural collective of post-war Germany, in the barracks of the camp, then renamed "camp for displaced persons of Buchenwald " to prepare the Jews for emigration to Palestine. This place operated for several years and welcomed many members. After the creation of the State of Israel, they founded their own community there in 1948 which was also called initially "Kibbutz Buchenwald" then "Netzer", then finally Netzer Sereni (in).

References

Kibbutzim in France

From 1933 to 1935, the village of Jugeals-Nazareth (Corrèze) hosted Makhar (“Tomorrow”), the only Jewish kibbutz in France. An agricultural building was rented by an emissary from Baron Robert de Rothschild to open a farm-school for young French Jews, before their departure for Palestine, conquered by the British in December 1917 with the arrival in Jerusalem in particular of General Allenby and which was then placed by decision of the League of Nations in 1920 as a mandate territory of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Jewish refugees join Makhar, mostly Germans, but also Poles, Lithuanians, Russians, Hungarians, Dutch or Czechs and even Americans. About 500 to 800 kibbutznikim thus cultivate 75 hectares. The agricultural production is sold at the Brive market. But the rise of anti-Semitism in France and the xenophobic action of the sub-prefect Roger Dutruch are forcing the closure of kibbutz Makhar. Most of the residents then left for Kibbutz Ayelet-Hashahar in the Galilee.

From 1960 to 1963, a Christian kibbutz, more precisely Jansenist, inspired by the kibbutzim of Israel, was created by Vincent Thibout, member of the Family in Pardailhan. This experiment fails because the members of the kibbutz (80 Parisians) are not used to agricultural life, and there are too many of them on a land that is not very fertile.

Vincent Thibout then created a new Christian community, still based on the kibbutz model and self-determined as such, in Malrevers. Currently run by Joseph Fert, it makes a living from the production of luxury clothing.

References

Since I don't manage "en" wikipedia, I propose those informations to this community.

Peace.

Shloren (talk) 18:36, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:19, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Sources from the French page (in wrong format, sorry) Shloren (talk) 10:11, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

•  Reviewing... I removed the duplicate section on this page and clarifed the citations above for ease. I will check the sources you supplied and add the text to article. TGHL ↗ 🍁 03:53, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
•  Done in revision 1032395005, however both the caption of a photo and the PDF from jugeals-nazareth.fr are questionable as a reliable sources. I did have to make some small copyedits however everything should be visible on the article now. Merci beaucoup pour votre traduction, Shloren! TGHL ↗ 🍁 05:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 December 2021

Please put Am Olam in see also; it was another "back to the land" Jewish communal movement. Also add Category:Jewish socialism . Thank you 24.44.73.34 (talk) 17:05, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Heartmusic678 (talk) 12:41, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 April 2022

In "The first kibbutzim" section, link Joseph Baratz to Yosef Baratz. Thanks 24.44.73.34 (talk) 04:13, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:05, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I think his name was Joseph and Yosef is a Hebraised version. I have a book written by him that says Joseph, and Encyclopedia Judaica calls him Joseph too. Zero^talk 11:37, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 April 2022 (2)

In gender equality section, fix link of masculinization of women to Gender role#Changing roles 24.44.73.34 (talk) 22:47, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. I don't think that's an apt target section, as that's more about how the norms are changing in cultures over time, rather than one gender taking on some of the traditional roles of another in a small group. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:27, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I should've phrased that better, it's just fixing an existing link by adding a space so it wouldn't be #Changingroles anymore. I don't disagree with you fwiw, was essentially just asking for a copyedit. So if we're gonna keep the old link it should link to what it's meant to instead of keeping it broken. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 12:55, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 November 2022

Please add a reference to this article : the book Our Hearts Invented A Dream: Can Kibbutzim Survive in Today’s Israel? Published by Cornell U press in 2003 and co- authors are Gary Brenner and Jo-Ann Mort- we also had an article on this subject In Dissent Magazine and reviews and interviews Parkslopepisces (talk) 21:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Parkslopepisces:  Not done for now: citations are generally appended to sentences or paragraphs not to articles. Please clarify a target location. Colonestarrice (talk) 15:41, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2023

In the section "group pressure to conform" the entire first paragraph, except the first sentence, does not have a single reference to back the claims up. It seems inappropriate to leave such tendentious paragraphs when they lack any academic references, especially when these claims are quite one-sided and, as the next paragraph implies, disproved. I would suggest to remove this paragraph, or provide sources. Milan.francis (talk) 22:53, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: I'm not going to completely remove the paragraph as there are some citations there. The unsourced claims are already marked with {{Citation needed}} tags, and can be removed if there is consensus among editors to do so. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:47, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

add pronunciation pleek

pleek 🥺 TitoBRPA (talk) 00:10, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Update population

Today nearly 200,000 living in the kibbutz 2A06:C701:42B6:D300:F58A:8471:C74C:4197 (talk) 11:44, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 February 2024

‘ Change ‘First Aliyah’ to ‘First Aliyah (1881-1903)’ Centrepiece12 (talk) 09:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Thank you for your contribution! NotAGenious (talk) 09:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Kibbutz Meshulav

Should the kibbutz meshulav be considered a type of kibbutz? 68.237.53.160 (talk) 03:30, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 April 2024

Settlement is a political term and specifically refers to communities beyond the green line. Recommend changing settlement to community. F smithers (talk) 10:26, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 12:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Explaining the citation needed on Hebrew

There's not a wrong fact as such, more an implication that I'm sceptical of. It's defined in the intro as a Hebrew word, but the word sounds Yiddish. I think it's not a Hebrew word used in English, it's a Yiddish word that is used as a loan word in both Hebrew and English. So needs a citation saying Yiddish got it from Hebrew, or needs a less misleading framing to mention it's Yiddish. MWQs (talk) 12:16, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Oxford English Dictionary says Origin 1930s: from modern Hebrew qibbūṣ ‘gathering’. Artem.G (talk) 12:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC)