Talk:Killing of Ayşenur Eygi

Merge proposal

Hello, I propose to merge this article into Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi. Shortly after I created that article, this one was created. The details in both articles are pretty much the same with some differences that can be sorted with the merge. It would be appropriate to keep the article's name as "Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi" as it is in the original. This decision would have precedence such as with the articles Thomas Hurndall, Rachel Corrie, Iain Hook, etc; all figures whose articles are named after themselves despite being known primarily for their killings. Thanks. Lavictus (talk) 22:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, could have the existing title redirect to your original page CubicCapacityCC (talk) 06:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I am not an expert on Wikipedia policies, but in my mind, it should be the other article that is merged with this one if anything. It seems it is her killing, not the individual herself, that is WP:NOTABLE and generating international headlines. Glass Snow (talk) 08:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, per the OP. Because as they have stated, there are many instances where an article is named after the person but nearly all of it is about their killing (specifically by the IDF). To add onto the examples given by the OP, check Brian Avery and Vittorio Arrigoni on top of the examples given by Lavictus. 82.36.106.253 (talk) 12:13, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. With all respect to Tom Hurndall, Rachel Corrie and all the other examples given by the users here, why should they have their own article named after themselves (instead of "Killing of X") but Aysenur shouldn't, despite the amount of background information available being the same. Additionally, Aysenur seems notable enough with numerous governments and organisations mentioning her and the fact that she is the 3rd ISM member (after Tom Hurndall and Rachel Corrie, both of whom pages are named after themselves) to be killed by the IDF. 2A00:23EE:1CE0:2EAB:5C0F:23FF:FEE4:16FB (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Probably should be merged the other way per WP:BIO1E. An article about the event makes sense, but Eygi appears to only be notable for her death so a biography is not appropriate. C F A 💬 16:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

There's not much logic behind this statement in my opinion. Look at all the other articles and killings in the same manner (by the IDF) and a very small part of their article is about their background (like 2-3 paragraphs, about the same size as Aysenur's biography) but their article is named after themselves. Either we change the names of all those articles highlighted above to "Killing of" or we go ahead with the proposed merge by Lavictus. 82.36.106.253 (talk) 16:13, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Other stuff exists is not a useful argument. WP:BIO1E/WP:BLP1E applies here regardless of how other articles are formatted. C F A 💬 16:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

From that page "While comparing with other articles is not, in general, a convincing argument, comparing with articles that have been through some kind of quality review such as Featured article, Good article, or have achieved a WikiProject A class rating, makes a much more credible case." Most of these articles have achieved the B-class status (Iain Hook, Vittorio Arrigoni, James Miller, Rachel Corrie), which means it has been through some kind of quality review. What is even more important is that all the "Killing of" articles on this subject matter refer to Arab citizens (see Category:People killed by Israeli security forces). Nearly all American (or the West in general) victims killed by the IDF are granted an article with only their name. I won't comment on how right this is, but it shows that I am not nit-picking articles as pretty much all high-profile killing of Westerners by the IDF are given an article with their own name. Considering these truths, WP:WAX wouldn't exactly apply. Thanks for your input though. 82.36.106.253 (talk) 16:37, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

There is no review process for B-class articles (only FA, GA, and A-class go through reviews). Anyone, even the article's creator, can update an article's rating to B-class without further opinion. Category:People killed by Israeli security forces is fairly split between event and biography articles. Taking a quick look at some of the biographies, I'm under the impression that they are also violating WP:BIO1E and should probably be reformatted. A lot of them are over a decade old and likely just haven't been revisited recently. It's possible, of course, that some of these people were notable prior to their death, in which case a biography would be appropriate. I'm not convinced that is the case here, though I haven't actually done an in-depth check for older sources. C F A 💬 16:54, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose the other article should be merged into this one per WP:PSEUDO. Rainsage (talk) 15:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

looks like most of the people in this discussion (except CFA) are non-ECR users, so I don't think their opinions should be considered as this is a topic related to the "Arab-Israeli Conflict" Rainsage (talk) 19:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Rainsage makes a good point. Anyone is welcome to comment here, and present arguments to convince others. But per WP:CT/A-I, only views from Extended-Confirmed editors can be used by whoever closes this discussion to determine consensus.

As for the proposal itself, WP:NOPAGE would suggest the two articles should be merged. Which is to be merged into which? I see this as a secondary consideration. Swapping titles is trivial, and can be done at any point after the merge is complete. The subject is notable only for her death, but that does not, ipso facto, require the title to include the word "killing". Without loss of generality, as the mathematicians say, let's start by merging the smaller, newer page - Aysenur Ezgi Eygi into the older, larger one - Killing of Aysenur Eygi. Once that's done, and Aysenur Ezgi Eygi is a redirect, we can have a separate discussion about the best title for the page. Owen× ☎ 23:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support This article should be merged to the individual biography. There is an overwhelming amount of coverage on Aysenur and her killing right now, and it may be a bit challenging to parse the specifically biographical from the coverage incident to her death. Nonetheless, (1) we are not in the position described by BLP1E ("When the role played by an individual in the event is less significant, and little or no other information is available to use in the writing of a balanced biography, an independent article may not be needed."); (2) There is significant interest in Aysenur's background, including her prior activism, participation in pro-Palestine encampments and dual citizenship. An article about this event is best served by including that material, not distancing from it. (3) There are arguably three already existent articles focusing on her life as whole. I strongly suspect that WP:GNG will be indisputably met by the time of any deletion/rename debate. If, instead of merging, there were an AfD on the biography page, I think it overwhelmingly likely to fail. Let's do the right thing to begin with.--Carwil (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

• Adding to those I mentioned, I count four and five separately researched articles on Aysenur's life as a whole. I don't see how Aysenur Eygi gets merged to here.--Carwil (talk) 20:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Side comment: There's plenty of room to build a more comprehensive article on the Beita/Eyvatar protests either at one of those pages or a separate new one.--Carwil (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
• Support Shireen Abu Akleh is a good model to follow. Selfstudier (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  Still only notable for one event no matter how you look at it. WP:BIO1E says: If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate and Another issue arises when an individual plays a major role in a minor event. In this case, it is not generally appropriate to have separate articles on the person and the event. Generally in this case, the name of the person should redirect to the article on the incident, especially if the individual is only notable for that incident and it is all that the person is associated with in the source coverage.. I'm not trying to downplay this but unfortunately these incidents seem to happen relatively frequently (as evidenced by the number of pages in Category:People killed by Israeli security forces). I don't think the event can be considered highly significant enough to warrant a separate biography. It's also worth noting that Shireen Abu Akleh was a journalist, who may have well been at least marginally notable before being killed. C F A 💬 22:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

• Regardless of how this shakes out for other individuals in Category:People killed by Israeli security forces, Aysenur Ezgi Eygi evidently went to the West Bank to shine a spotlight on Palestinian protest, and (per this interview) to return and bring knowledge of the situation there to the United States. Her activity was a continuation of her activism at UW, pictured here. BLP1E protects "low-profile individuals" from excessive scrutiny, and by Wikipedia's standards, she is not a low-profile individual. High-profile: Has voluntarily participated in self-publicity activities, such as press conferences, promotional appearances, book signings, and the like; and/or has participated in an attention-seeking manner in publicity for some other concern, such as a cause, election campaign or commercial endorsee. Let's be clear that this standard is not the same as the standard for notability prior to the event as CFA is suggesting here.--Carwil (talk) 16:44, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

  You're confusing WP:BLP1E and WP:BIO1E. Being a "low-profile individual" is not relevant here because she is only notable for her death, where WP:BIO1E applies. BLP ("Biographies of living people") 1E is for people who are living. C F A 💬 22:24, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Edit request, 7 September 2024

Change "Accused" within the infobox into "Perpetrator" since sources are confirming she got shot by an Israeli sniper — 🧀Cheesedealer ^!!!⚟ 13:32, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Based on the policies at Wikipedia:BLPCRIME, I think it makes most sense to wait until an independent investigation determines the perpetrator, even if it seems exceedingly likely it was the IDF. ForsythiaJo (talk) 14:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The IDF stated it had targeted and fired on the crowd. Only two gunshots were heard by numerous witnesses. So the 'perpetrator' is without a doubt a sniper in the IDF, not someone inside the protest shooting (the onlòy alternative possibility). That is what they are admitting, and unless counterindications emerge that is the proper and neutral word for the agent causing her death.Nishidani (talk) 15:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Confusing wording

From the article as currently written: "Clashes then broke out between the soldiers and the protesters begun the shooting occurred following a communal prayer." I think what it's trying to say is that clashes broke out, and then the shooting began, but it could also be understood to mean that the protesters began the shooting - i.e. that they shot first. But I believe these protesters weren't even armed at all, and didn't shoot at all, let alone initiate an exchange of gunfire with the soldiers. So the article needs to be edited to clarify. -2003:CA:8717:9F6A:370A:329:117A:45BD (talk) 00:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

That whole section had confusing wording. I've gone in and done some copyediting; hopefully it should be more readable now. ForsythiaJo (talk) 02:55, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

New sources

• Jeffrey St. Clair 'Murder in Beita: the IDF’s Killing of Ayşenur Eygi,' CounterPunch 13 September 2024 Nishidani (talk) 22:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oren Ziv, ‘She came here out of love’: Palestinians, allies honor activist slain by Israeli army: Eyewitnesses recount the killing of Turkish-American Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi at a protest in Beita, decrying Israel’s efforts to scare off international activists,+972 magazine 10 September 2024Nishidani (talk) 22:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)