Talk:Killings of Carol, Hannah and Louise Hunt

Title

@This is Paul Hi. Your move was certainly reasonable under WP:NCWWW, but the result isn't great because "2024" does't say that much and "Bushey" doesn't say anything to most people. "Killings of Carol, Hannah and Louise Hunt" has more recognizable elements (names of victims) and is better in totality. Also a fine way to name an article with multiple victims: Murders of Gerald and Vera Woodman (in this case there are three victims which is not the same as two, but the title is still sufficiently concise). I suggest an RM if you disagree. Sincerely —Alalch E. 16:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I do disagree, chiefly because naming multiple victims in the title of an article makes the title awkward. Here are a few examples of other articles which follow the location naming convention when multiple victims from the same family were involved:

• Shiregreen child murders
• White House Farm murders
• Killamarsh murders
• 2012 Derby arson attack
• Ughill Hall shootings

I think your concern that "2024" does't say that much and "Bushey" doesn't say anything to most people is a flimsy argument, since none of the abovementioned locations would say that much to the majority of readers. You cite a case above where the individuals are named, but all such cases I've found (such as Murders of William Redmond and Helen Phelps) tend to involve two individuals and no more. So I will be requesting a move for that reason. This is Paul (talk) 17:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 10 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved as no consensus formed (non-admin closure) Bremps... 17:59, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

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Killings of Carol, Hannah and Louise Hunt → 2024 Bushey killings – Requesting move per WP:NCWWW and per naming convention of similar articles where multiple victims are involved. This is Paul (talk) 17:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 22:30, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The proposed title basically rests on "Bushey" as the most distinguishing element, and that can't be good because of low recognizability of this place and weak association with this subject in the minds of most people globally, who will remember this as "that crossbow attack in the UK in which three people were killed". Almost no one will recognize or remember this for "Bushey". Names of the victims in a construction that denotes that three were killed is more recognizable and natural. Names of multiple victims is also a fine way to name an article about an event such as this: Murders of Gerald and Vera Woodman and Murders of William Redmond and Helen Phelps (in this case there are three victims which is not the same as two, but the title is still sufficiently concise, and is actually more concise than the latter).—Alalch E. 18:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment I doubt many people outside the United Kingdom were aware of Dunblane before the Dunblane massacre or Streatham before the 2020 Streatham stabbing. Incidents like this propel places into public consciousness and a place's prior obscurity should not affect article naming or ignore convention. Additionally, prior to the announcement of the victims' identities all of the media reports I was seeing were referring to it as the Bushey attacks. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 12:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Those previous incidents were reported by place name in sustained media; the focus of sustained media in this case appears to be that it was a triple murder, the relation to John Hunt, and the crossbow. Anecdotally, I had already forgotten the name of the location and had to search the victims' names to find this article, to the point of what the article name is supposed to do (be what someone looking for it would expect). Kingsif (talk) 23:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Support - would support something like 2024 Bushey crossbow killings/attack SimplyLouis27 (talk) 18:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Support - In my opinion naming three people in an article name sounds weird. Many other articles of killings of people have not put the victims as the name. In the article it clearly states their names anyway so I don't see a big issue with changing it to a better sounding and shorter, easier to search name (I've had to go to the July 9, 2024 page multiple times to get to this article because I don't remember all the victims names).

Bloxzge 025 (talk) 02:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment - I had to go to the 2024 in the United Kingdom page to find this originally. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 08:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Same: but the first time I was looking, when it was under the "Bushey" name and I had already completely forgotten that place name... Kingsif (talk) 23:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Support – the crossbow was a notable factor, so maybe go with 2024 Bushey crossbow killings — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 09:22, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment while it's been widely reported in the media as a crossbow attack, the BBC live reporting page still currently says "Police believe the attack was targeted and carried out with a crossbow, as well as possibly other weapons" [1]. It may be premature to include crossbow in the title now, although I would agree once it's confirmed by police. Adam Black ^{talk • contribs} 12:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Support It would be best to have it all in one article rather than having multiple ones. -- SShreddies (talk) 23:01, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose As I have commented above, "Bushey" as the only identifier would not be indicative of the main elements of this incident, and I think it is actually quite far down the list of options in terms of identifying it. And in terms of searchability. Bushey has already been dropped as part of the media reports. It is also not a place many people had even heard of before, and so the name is unlikely to stick in the memory, meaning it will be an unlikely search term - the article will be harder to find. Kingsif (talk) 23:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment If including "Bushey" for the sake of consistency with other articles, Bushey crossbow murders, Bushey triple murders, or combining both would be preferable. But I think the current title, naming the victims, is good. Kingsif (talk) 23:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

If the title is changed to include the location, I agree it won't need the year. However, it'd need to include crossbow because that's prominent in the media coverage. Killings is much better than attack because it's precise. We can't include murder because the suspect will likely be tried. 2A00:23CC:B4AA:2F01:8CCD:1CFF:FEBB:539F (talk) 10:59, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Support - Article is difficult to find with current name. It is uncommon for pages about mass murder, domestic violence or not, to be named after victims, especially of more recent incidents. As others have said, putting "crossbow" somewhere in the title would be useful. I don't think it is necessary to wait for confirmation on whether a crossbow was used alone, as the crossbow does appear to be a significant part of the investigation and surveillance video shows a suspect carrying what is most likely the crossbow. Police also recovered a crossbow after arresting a suspect. As such, I think something along the lines of 2024 Bushey crossbow killings would be more appropriate and would help with discoverability.

Macxcxz (talk) 15:40, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Support it being moved somewhere else. An alternate title I would suggest would be Hunt family murders (as the murder was of a family, this is how we typically do familicide mass murder titles). In fact, we already have a duplicate article there. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:14, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Article names involving killings named after a place (e.g., Port Arthur massacre, Dunblane massacre, 2014 Isla Vista killings, Atlanta child murders, etc.) are generally primarily connected by their geographic proximity and not other common elements aside from the perpetrator. This is very clearly a targeted killing of three members of the same family. The recommended title of Hunt family murders, which currently serves as a redirect to this article, is a better target for a move, as it clearly and concisely states what is most notable and identifying about the killings. 2024 Bushey killings should continue to be a redirect to the main article. --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 15:34, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relist, to allow additional discussion of the proposed title and the alternative of "Hunt family murders" or similar. BilledMammal (talk) 22:30, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: We can't use Hunt family murders because there's an ongoing legal process, but Hunt family killings would be an acceptable title. This is Paul (talk) 19:02, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

added detail about Bardley and Kyle

"Six years ago, Bradley Clifford (born around 1994) (worked in an air conditioning shop) was handed a life sentence at the Old Bailey for killing an 18-year-old who smashed a bottle on his "prized" red Mustang (Ford Mustang)in 2017.

Bradley Clifford ploughed into Jahshua Francis, 19, who was riding a moped, and his pillion passenger Sobhan Khan, 18.

He drunkenly chased their scooter through Enfield at nearly double the speed limit, on the wrong side of the road.

The two teenagers were flung into the air when he hit them. While Mr Francis escaped serious injury by "pure chance", Mr Khan was gravely injured.

In an "intense rage", Bradley Clifford continued the attack as he lay on the street, punching him hard nine times, the Old Bailey heard."

"Bradley Clifford was sentenced at the Old Bailey six years ago and was handed a life sentence with a minimum term of 23 years for murder and seven years for the attack on Mr Francis, to run concurrently."

if you think this should not be in the main space, please feel welcome to remove

"Before the killing, Bradley Clifford had threatened to put a knife down the throats and "rain hell" on anyone who interfered with his Mustang in a WhatsApp message to his girlfriend.

He was found guilty of murdering Mr Khan and attempting to inflict grievous bodily harm with intent on Mr Francis.

During sentencing in 2018, judge Sarah Munro QC told Bradley Clifford he clearly regarded his Ford Mustang as a "status symbol which he took pride in".

She said: "The two young teenagers who got on to the moped did not know how enraged you were or what you were capable of.

"Had they seen the WhatsApp message they would not have been misguided enough to throw a bottle at your car.

"You decided that those on that moped had to pay the price, and you pursued them intent that they did.""

Kyle Clifford, before being implicated in the tragic triple murder, had a brief career in the British Army. He was a member of the Queen’s Dragoon Guards but left the military in 2022. After leaving the army, he worked as a private security guard

There are also mentions that Bradley Clifford, his brother, previously worked as a manager at an air conditioning firm​

Travelrisk (talk) 08:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC)