Talk:Kim Jong (table tennis)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus, leaning towards a consensus against moving. Jenks24 (talk) 12:35, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

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Kim Jong (table tennis) → Kim Jong – The only person in English Wikipedia whose name is actually Kim Jong. Obviously Kim Jong-il is far more notable, but he does not meet WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT: I see no evidence that Kim Jong-il is called "Kim Jong" in reliable sources. More generally, the second syllable of a Korean given name is not like an English "middle name" which can be dropped arbitrarily; it's an integral part of the name, like the "than" of Nathan" or the "ris" of "Boris". We have no redirects for other nonsensical or even semi-plausible shortenings of other world leaders' names (Bar Obama, Gordo Brown). Even completely-plausible shortenings which aren't widely used in real sources either (1) don't exist (Will Clinton, Ed Heath); (2) go to a disambiguation page (Ted Roosevelt, Dave Cameron); or (3) are articles about people who actually use that shortened name, with only a hatnote leading to the far-more-notable world leader (e.g. Ron Reagan, Steve Harper). Thanks, Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 15:16, 2 July 2014 (UTC) quant18 (talk) 09:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - this is just an accident of DPRK using a different romanization system from the South. Kim Jong is the birthname of King Heongang of Silla who is the primary topic in books. ko.wp has a dab with various ROK Kim Jong politicians who also crop up in English books In ictu oculi (talk) 11:26, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I've provisionally added the king to make Kim Jong a dab, however the dab could easily be moved out to (disambiguation) if the North Korean table tennis player is decided to be more important than the king. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:34, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, "Kim Jong" isn't standard for 김정 or 김종 in any romanisation system. MR indicates devoicing in the romanisation (i.e. Kim Chŏng/Chong), RR would spell 김 as Gim, and Yale gives us Ceng/Cong. OTOH a dab page (or anything else whatsoever) at the Kim Jong lemma is at least an improvement over the previous situation; I'm happy to support any outcome which doesn't leave readers thinking that "Kim Jong" is a correct way to refer to Kim Jong-il. quant18 (talk) 11:50, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

DPRK uses a modified McCune–Reischauer where all ko:김정 would be Kim Jong with a J not Ch. The dab could be moved to Kim Jeong or Kim Jung if we want to be more consistent (most of our interwiki links to name dabs follow Southern not Northern schemes). But I agree with you, I'm also happy to support any outcome which doesn't leave readers thinking that "Kim Jong" is a correct way to refer to Kim Jong-il. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support per no evidence that Kim Jong-il is called "Kim Jong". The birthname of King Heongang of Silla is "Kim Jeong", and nobody calls him "Kim Jong". Sawol (talk) 01:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Well Google Books shows that the king's birthname doesn't occur in English sources at all, neither ROK spelling nor DPRK, since he's a minor king. Nevertheless to make a DPRK table tennis player who occurs neither in English nor Korean book sources a primary topic simply because North and South use different romanizations isn't helpful to our readers. There's no glory in ambiguating articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. I approve in theory, but ... sorry, I just can't bring myself to support such an inferior claimant to primary topic. No disrespect intended. Red Slash 00:10, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per In ictu oculi. The new status quo -- with a disambiguation page at the base title to distinguish the table tennis player from the birthname of King Heongang of Silla -- is preferable. Xoloz (talk) 02:59, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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