Talk:Kind of Blue/Archive 1

Archive 1

Initial comments

Kind of blue is cool jazz or if not a major step toward cool jazz instead of hard bob isn'it ?

Ericd 21:05, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Merphant 01:40, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Blue in Green composition

Although it's accurate in "tracklisting" to portray the information as it is listed, should this article point out somewhere that "Blue in Green" was composed by Bill Evans, and not Miles Davis?

In case there is contention on this point (which is understandable, as Davis owned the copyright), I'm going from Pettinger (Bill Evans: How My Heart Sings, 1998), who cites both Evans himself and a friend who witnessed the composition.

Capitalization in albums

there's been some inconsistency in this, I had to relink Sketches of Spain to Sketches Of Spain. The latter is more correct, I believe, aren't all words in album titles capitalized, even articles and prepositions? Or does it rely on the original capitalization as published?

Anyways i wonder if this problem is causing trouble in other album links. --The silentist 07:33, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, the preposition of is not capitalized in this context. The appropriate title is Sketches of Spain, with italics. See the "Music" section, sub-section, "Album titles and band names", in the article, Wikipedia:Naming conventions: Convention: In titles of songs or albums, unless it is unique, the standard rule in the English language is to capitalize words that are the first word in the title and those that are not conjunctions (and, but, or, nor), prepositions (to, over, through) or articles (an, a, the). --Viriditas | Talk 09:42, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Production

I do not see any producer credit for Teo Macero for Miles Davis recordings until "Sketches of Spain". I'll have to go back and look at the Chambers biography but I don't believe Teo had anything to do with "Kind of Blue". —Preceding unsigned comment added by TalkingWall (talk • contribs) 02:52, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Cannonball

I've removed this:

Following Somethin' Else, Kind of Blue is the second album that resulted from the collaboration between Miles Davis and Julian "Cannonball" Adderley.

There are a couple of things wrong with this statement. Firstly, it's the third album Miles and Cannonball made together (Milestones came between the two above). Secondly, it's not a "collaboration" between the two men. Cannonball was part of Miles's group (it's debatable whether Somethin' Else was a collaboration, as Miles seems to have had significant input into the style and tunes selected for the recording as well as playing on it). Kind of Blue is a collaboration, but with Bill Evans, who was brought back to record it, and it's very much in Bill Evans's style. It's also questionable whether the familiar "first time the musicians saw the music was on the recording date" story is entirely true - I've not read Kahn's book, but I believe he says a couple of the tunes were played live before the recording. --Andrew Norman 7 July 2005 20:11 (UTC)

Appreciation and Trivia

It's hard to find enough good things to say about this album. The playing almost feels lazy, as though the band were having a good time and just laid down a few songs between beers while on holiday. This is a totally false impression for an awful lot of hard work has gone into this nigh miraculous playing. I only feel sorry for those people who don't like it.

Apparently Miles used to tease Bill Evans ("I'm not sure we want any white opinions here.") but he was only having a joke. Miles may have been into Civil Rights and Black Power but he was never a racist. He had far too much respect for the music for that.

Edit

While I agree that "this album is f**kin' sweet", I think it constitutes POV and have removed it from the "Conception" secion. ;-) Pearce.duncan 04:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with the 'sweetness'! I wonder though, since the POV about the greatness of this album is so wide and spans across music genres (people who don't normally 'like jazz'), cultures, and generations, at what point does a qualitative POV become a simple quantitative fact? Similarly it's widely held that 'the Sun is good for the earth'. Even though 'good' is qualitative because it relates to our human experience, thist statement would generally be regarded as a fact.

"And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good - need we ask anyone to tell us these things?" - Plato, The Phaedrus

Siraj555 17:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

However, Davis was one of many jazz musicians growing dissatisfied with bebop, seeing its increasingly complex chord changes as hindering creativity. This is a debatable point; bebop was ten years before KoB anyway. Are you referring to the music that grew out of bebop? And how specifically? I think this sentence should be rephrased:

"However, Davis desired to bring a more lyrical quality to the forefront in his music[1], a quality which was not emphasized as much in bebop and post-bop jazz."

[1] This desire is verifiable in numerous sources -- off the top of my head, John Szwed's book, and Miles' autobiography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mendali (talk • contribs) 19:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Source of Intro to "So What".

The intro to "So What" is very closely based, if not entirely based on Claude Debussy's "Voiles". When in doubt, check it out. Doucetjazz 21:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC) Talk:ArticleName/GAn

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kind of Blue/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hi! I am reviewing your article and will list my comments here. —Mattisse (Talk) 18:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• The lead section is too short and does not summarize the article. Most of what you talk about in the article, the Conception, the Composition etc., are not summarized in the lead.

• As described in Wikipedia:Citing sources, when you use a shorted form of footnotes (as you have) you must have a Reference section where you give the full reference for every footnotes, e.g. full title, full authors, ISBN, etc.

• This statement needs to be referenced by a reliable source. For example, "Kelly may not have been happy to see the man he replaced back in his old seat. Perhaps to assuage the pianist's feelings, and also to take advantage of Kelly's superior skills as both bluesman and accompanist, Davis had Kelly play instead of Evans on the album's most blues-oriented number, "Freddie Freeloader"." is not referenced and it gives an opinion.

• Further, this statement contains what Wikipedia calls weasel words. "Kelly may not have been happy..." and "Perhaps to assuage the pianist's feelings..." are weasel statements as they hypothesize a situation without stating directly (attributing) who is doing the hypothesizing.

• All sources must conform with reliable sources. I question whether such references as http://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/all-time would qualify.

• You could consider not autoformatting the dates. It is not required anymore, and the "sea of blue" created by the autoformatting hides you "high value" links.

• This is not my area of expertise, but I thought using modes or modal music had 12 notes per mode and was different from using regular scales. Or am I not understanding the section Conception?

• I believe that you should be consistent in the type of reference format used for footnotes, and use the same format throughout the article.

• Cquotes have been deprecated in articles in favor of other forms of quotation. Can't find the citation at the moment.

• You repeat some information on George Russell under Conception and again under Composition.

• Also, please check your links: http://toolserver.org/~dispenser/cgi-bin/webchecklinks.py?page=Kind_of_Blue The webchecklinks show that two of them are dead.

• Otherwise, it is a very nice article. I will put it on hold until you fix the problems listed which should not be hard. All in all, you have done a good job. Please feel free to ask me any questions.

(copied from Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music review:

• You must have a consistent standard for formatting references. See WP:Citation templates and scroll down to where the templates xxx are. Or go to Template:Cite book. WP:Footnote gives an over all explanation. The issue is to choose a format and be consistent in the article. Always provide the publisher. And when you have a page range e.g. pp.56-67, you must use the pp. The single p. is for a single page. Hope this helps.

• Everything is taken care of except the following:
• What does "name-checked" mean?

• Also, to be strictly correct, the reference citations should be moved out of the lead and put in the article at the place where they are discussed. As we discussed, we can consider this optional.

• Reference 22 has "take information chapters 3 & 4." What does that mean?

Name-check means mention or cite. I fixed Ref. 22. My bad. Dan56 (talk) 13:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind if I change it, as it is an unfamiliar term in my world. You can change it back if you feel strongly. —Mattisse (Talk) 13:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Use of &ndashes

I notice there have been a lot of reverts going on re: when and where &ndashes may be used. Let's discuss it here and not turn it into a revert war. Thanks---Editor437 (talk) 15:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you convince the editor, User:T-rex using the script to convert in mass articles using endashes into html symbol that I cannot tell the difference in the edit window when it is an article I am working on. It is personal preference and he is doing mass edits with his script, not considering the editors who are working on the article. He is interrupting the editing process with his mass changing of articles with his script without any consultation on the talk page. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

This comment [1] from User:Christopher Parham on his talk page is also telling User:T-rex to stop. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikilink of first mentions of compositions

I wikilinked the first mentions of compositions, but it means that they are also wikilinked in the section below. Probably they should not be wikilinked again in the next section. What do you think? —Mattisse (Talk) 17:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Songs and such need to be wikilinked at first mention. I linked them and someone reverted me. Please make sure they are linked —Mattisse (Talk) 19:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of that. —Mattisse (Talk) 22:05, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:Lame?

This seems like a candidate -- since all of the edits the last couple of days concern "-" versus "&ndashes" or simple wikilinks.--Editor437 (talk) 21:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Russell/Modal tunes

A. George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept really has nothing to do with harmony used in jazz. B. His concept was that the IV chord was the 'real' tonic, not that songs could be based on modes. C. Modal music goes back to the middle ages and predated chords. D. Most of the tunes on 'Kind of Blue' are not modal. E. 'So What' the major modal tune was most likely derived from a light classical piece call Pavanne which was covered by Ahmad Jahmal a few years earlier.

From HalGalper.com

"Davis's infatuation with Jamal may have even been the catalyst for jazz's modal revolution. On October 25, 1955, Jamal recorded an arrangement of Morton Gould's "Pavanne" (available on the 1989 CBS/Portrait reissue Poinciana). In the middle of the arrangement is a brief interlude in which Jamal plays a D minor 7 vamp, then modulates the vamp up to E-flat minor 7. The vamp bears a striking similarity to Davis's "So What," which uses that same progression. Jamal's "Pavanne" predates "So What" by three and a half years.

Plus, as Jamal vamps, Crawford plays a melody that is note for note the same as John Coltrane's on "Impressions." Crawford's melody predates "Impressions" by six years.

Considered one of the most revolutionary pieces in jazz history, "So What," which appeared on Davis's 1959 landmark album Kind of Blue (which itself featured Coltrane), popularized the concept of modal jazz, in which songs and improvisations are based on modes/scales instead of chord changes. This concept would be thoroughly embraced by Coltrane and other pioneers of the '60s.

While there is a difference between Jamal's interlude and the melody of "So What," it's probable Davis pulled the concept for "So What," consciously or subconsciously, from Jamal's "Pavanne." "Impressions," another jazz standard and important modal tune, is a different story. While the accepted history is that Coltrane created "Impressions" as an extension of "So What," the tale sounds suspect when you compare Coltrane's melody to Crawford's interlude

Not "entirely modal"

I made two changes to remove the generalization, made twice in the body of the article, that the album is "entirely based on modality." This is not the case: "So What" and "Flamenco Sketches" are the two purely modal tunes on the album. "Freddie Freeloader" is a blues, plain and simple, and "Blue In Green" is based upon diatonic harmony in the manner of compositions of the period. "All Blues" falls into an in-between category; many musicians view it as being a fairly straightfoward blues and it can be defended as such, but I think it could also be looked at as a "modal blues." (I haven't published that article, but I can make it available.) In any event, "All Blues" is at best an ambiguity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Recumbent DNA (talk • contribs) 13:48, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Kind of Blue/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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Article requirements: Y All the start class criteria Y A completed infobox, including cover art and most technical details Y At least one section of prose (excluding the lead section) Y A track listing containing track lengths and authors for all songs Y A full list of personnel, including technical personnel and guest musicians Y Categorisation at least by artist and year Y A casual reader should learn something about the album.Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC) The second paragraph under the sub-topic "Content" in the "Music" section of this article mixes -- well, not so much apples and oranges, as okra and avocados. The topic of the paragraph is how jazz bandleaders sometimes appropriated songwriting credit for the compositions of their sidemen (as Miles may have done regarding Bill Evans on a couple of tunes from the subject album), but then gives as "another example" of this phenomenon the similarity in composition between the introduction in the Gil Evans-penned "So What," to the opening bars of Claude Debussy's "Voiles." Debussy was a lot of things, but a sideman in Gil Evans's band wasn't among them.Ken Kukec (talk) 18:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Last edited at 18:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 15:12, 1 May 2016 (UTC)