Talk:King's Cross St Pancras tube station/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 16:57, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Comments

• Firstly the name. A number of the official sites call it "St Pancras" as befitting the normal proclivity of Brits not putting a period after abbreviated Saint. And our article about St Pancras, London, and all its subsidiary articles don't use a period. This one seems to be the odd one out. You even use "St Pancras" rather than "St. Pancras" in the opening sentence... Now why?

Seriously, it's because I wasn't paying attention. This is one of those "is it Purple or is it Pink" issues - I personally would go without the dot because St Pancras railway station is a GA and the article on the tube station should at least be consistent with something that has already been assessed as acceptable. And yes, TfL sources do leave the dot out; however, the sign at the front of the entrance has it in. Now, I'm really not bothered one way or the other what we do, but we've got to go with something, so let's go with no dot. (And as you might guess, the bits of prose that don't have a dot are bits I wrote, the ones that do are ones I didn't) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:44, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Euston St. Pancras railway station will need fixing too... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

As DavidCane said on the talk, consensus is for TfL to now start using no dot, though older sources will need a while to catch up. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Did DavidCane say that? Well wow. Let's just move them when we find them. Gotta move 'em all! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:57, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Entrance on Euston Road..." caption is a fragment, no full stop.

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "between six Underground lines: Metropolitan/Circle/Hammersmith & City, Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria" this is odd characterisation using a mix of slash and comma. It's unclear to a non-expert reader why you've chosen to do so.

I didn't write that. I've reverted, we'll see if it gains consensus. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "it is the most used station " I think this needs to be specific, so if it's the most passengers, then say that.

Done. (It is entrances / exits).

• "and was one of the first underground stations to open." I would put this first in this sentence.

Okay; personally I think only tube geeks care about this but I'm willing to concede I might be wrong on that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "reorganised" used twice in consecutive sentences is a little jarring, particularly as it's unclear what this means in the context of a station.

Gone with "expanded" (with context) and "restructured and partially rebuilt" instead. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "it killed thirty one people " 31.

Done. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "and was the deadliest accident " was or is?

Still is. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• " for Eurostar services moving to St Pancras" probably more intuitive and interesting to say where they'd moved from.

Oh yeah, I thought everybody knew that :-/ Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Paddington is a pipe to a redirect.

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• (MR) is missing following "Metropolitan Railway". (You use MR in the infobox...)

I've reworded the infobox, although MR is technically correct, I don't think it's obvious even to those who know what C&SLR and LB&SCR mean without batting an eyelid. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:15, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's technically incorrect, I'm saying give the initialism in the text so our non-expert readers stand a chance of interpreting the infobox. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:22, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Would you consider "King's Cross for St Pancras" to be an alternative name? If so, bold and create a redirect.
• " renamed to King's Cross St Pancras" I don't think in BritEng we ever say "renamed to".

I've been hanging around with Americans for too long. Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "except for the Metropolitan line station, which was renamed on 16 October 1940" I think I know you mean this was also renamed the same, but it's not clear.

I've copyedited this bit, to make it a little clearer. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• You didn't link Euston Road in the lead, but you do in the prose, a deliberate decision?

Ego. If I keep linking to articles I took to GA my head won't fit through the door. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "service moved to St Pancras International" first and only mention of St Pancras in this way, seems anomalous.

I've split the sentence into two, the relevance of King's Cross Thameslink station is only tangential at this point in th sitory. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Note [a] isn't referenced.

Removed - it's only a footnote Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:24, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• " Highbury & Islington" is a pipe to a redirect.

Oh yes, it's mainline too isn't it? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Note [b] isn't referenced.

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Finsbury Park" is a pipe to a redirect.

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "7:30 pm" use non-breaking space and p.m. per MOS. Et seq.

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Northern / Piccadilly" consistency, i.e. spaced or unspaced slashes.

Spaced, please. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Thirty one people died" 31, but needs work to not start the sentence with a numeral.

Done, but "It killed 31 people" doesn't sound right compared to "31 people were killed". Fires don't deliberately kill people, it's just an act of .... something Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "The station took over a year to repair " seems a little anthropomorphic, maybe "It took over a year to repair the station..."?
• "The station took over a year to repair and rebuild the station" in any case, station...station... jarring.

Condensed. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• At this point I feel there are quite a few short paras, making for a clunky article, any chance of merging a few of them elegantly?
• "The Northern Ticket Hall, underneath the new Kings Cross concourse," shouldn't that be "King's Cross concourse"?

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "In 2000, work began to upgrade ... Construction began in 2000 and the upgrade...." repetitive, needs copyedit.

No, it needs a stick of dynamite. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "100,000 people a day" shouldn't that be "per day"?

Changed to "daily" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "and 10 new lifts" ten (for the sake of flow).

Fixed (and copyedited a bit) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "by the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson and the Minister for London, Tessa Jowell on" commas after their names.

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "on the Northern and the Piccadilly lines." you suddenly relink these lines...

Strange, the overlink tool didn't pick them up. Ah well, fixed now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "As part of the station upgrade, Art on the Underground commissioned ..." shouldn't this be in the "Artwork" section?

Don't see why not Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Tube ticket hall" doesn't have capital T or H for Ticket Hall, while the others do, really?

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "from the tube lines" that should be a "Tube" not a "tube" right?

No, because "tube lines" here refers to the lines generally as a common noun, as opposed to the Tube Ticket Hall which is a proper noun. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

So is "tube" suddenly in the OED without caps for the Underground? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:36, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Ah, I'm with you - yes, it should be "Tube" as that's what TfL sources use. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:37, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Charles Yerkes" is a pipe to a redirect ... back to itself.

Redirect was backwards - fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "the Leslie Green designed " hyphen between "Green" and "designed".

Done, also replaced "famous" with "known" which is less POV

• "Each station had ..." had or has?

Copyedited. The source was talking about the original design, though you can still see the tiles if you go and look. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• " Chelsea-Hackney line " that's Crossrail 2, but if you insist, shouldn't that be an en-dash?
• You then pipe Crossrail to a redirect back to itself, and then link Crossrail 2 again but without the pipe. This is confusing for our readers.

This was a bit of a dog's breakfast; I've redone the links. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "link both Euston and Kings Cross St Pancras" King's and decide on St or St.....

See above Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• I note Euston St. Pancras railway station has the period in article title but not in the intro sentence...

See above Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "strategy documents by TFL and " who are TFL?

Sentences reordered - fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "Transport for London have considered a line from Bank via City Thameslink and Holborn to the two transport hubs but may not be developed " ah, TFL! and a word missing here, like "this" before "may"?

As above, I think sentences were swapped. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "to serve the Kings Cross Central " King's.

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• " and was about 600 m (660 yd) north" is about?

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• In the lead you don't pipe "fare zone 1" but later you pipe to the direct article, be consistent.

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "King's Cross St. Pancras is the second busiest station on the network, trailing only Waterloo.[46]" vs "As of 2017, it is the most used station on the network.[1]" needs work.

The source in the body is a dead link (which must have happened recently as I'm sure all the references were "live" when I nominated it for GA a few months back); the one in the lead is "live" and verifiable, so I've gone with that. There always seems to be mild pandemonium around the entry / exit gates, even though there are so many of them. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Many bus routes are pipes to redirects.

I suspect that's because a lot of them got sent to AfD and were closed as "redirect" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Why isn't it London Bus routes? I get the company is called London Buses, but I never say "London Buses route 10", I say "London Bus route 10"...

Both King's Cross and St Pancras (mainline) articles, already at GA, use "Several London bus routes...." so let's go with that. I've trimmed the list of routes down to those that have articles. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• "(1906–32)" (1906–1932) per date range MOS.

Fixed Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• " an Irish Nationalist terrorist " suitable link?

Done Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• Presumably for completeness you should include the King's Cross fire in the Incidents section.

I'm not sure we should, it would basically repeat the prose in the main article. The fire is included in the main part of the history because it's several orders of magnitude more important than all other incidents combined, and a major event in the history of London. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

That's all I have. I'll place the article on hold pending discussion over the above items. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:25, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Cheers for the review, catching all the niggling issues I'm rubbish at spotting myself. I'm working through them now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:46, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Always a pleasure. You'll note my usual pedantry. And I half-expect a visitation in due course. But whatever. Take the comments as you find them. And think of our readers, not some of our sillier guidelines. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

"And I half-expect a visitation in due course." - what, to the station? I walked past it yesterday en route to the pianos in the main St Pancras concourse. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

No, there always seems to be lurkers when I review one of your GANs. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not the only one who does major work on tube station articles, there are about 3-4 regulars and they all drop in on each other's work. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Yup, that's right. Still waiting. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I think everything's been addressed one way or another, can you check? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:24, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I can, and I will, but not right now. Hopefully tomorrow. I'm still waiting for the cheque to clear. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

No worries. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:33, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

All good, so I'll pass this nomination. Good work. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:15, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Cheers for the review! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC)