Talk:Kirya Ne'emana

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Exact location

How was it distinct from Musrara? Arminden (talk) 18:24, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Arminden: Kirya Ne'emana was not part of Musrara at all. Are you familiar with the Bar Lev highway? As you drive toward the Old City, Musrara is on your right side and Kirya Ne'emana was on the left side. Some of the buildings at the eastern end of Rechov HaNeviim are said to be former buildings of Kirya Ne'emana. Kirya Ne'emana and other small housing projects built in proximity to Damascus Gate were evacuated during the 1929 Arab riots. Yoninah (talk) 19:11, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

To editor Arminden:To editor Yoninah: This depends on where the boundaries of Musrara are considered to be. I'm not sure if they had a formal definition at all, but Adar Arnon, The Quarters of Jerusalem in the Ottoman Period, Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 28, No. 1 (Jan., 1992), pp. 1-65 says "MUSRARA - the area between Mas'udiyya Quarter in the east and Shivtey Israel Street in the west. One of its sub-quarters was 'Nisim Bek Kumbaniya'- Nissan Bek Houses, known as Kirya Ne'emana, (1877) situated near Damascus Gate, bordering Eshel Avraham." Zero^talk 02:47, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I think the problem is that there were no precise boundaries to these neighborhoods and over time usage has moved a bit. Consider a small triangle with one corner at Damascus Gate. On the west is Heil Hahandasa (continuation of Derech Barlev, formerly Godrey de BouillerBouillon St — this section was only built around the beginning of the 20th century). On the south is Hatzanchanim (formerly Sultan Suleiman St) along the wall, and on the north-east is Hanevi'im (Street of the Prophets). Kirya Ne'emana is in that triangle. I have four maps that show Musrara extending into this triangle, including one in Hebrew. They all date from the early mandate period. One of them, the most detailed map of Jerusalem made by the Survey of Palestine in 1922, has the name "El Masrara" entirely within that triangle less than 100m from Batei Nissan Bak. Zero^talk 07:24, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: hi. Wait, I'm confused. You're Abu-Map, I'm just a modest Google Maps user and I'm having a hard time to figure it out. Handasa (Engineers) - Tzanchanim (Paratroopers) - Prophets? Doesn't work out on Google Maps, they don't touch. I think what you call Paratroopers is the last western appendix of the (still so called) Sultan Suleiman St. on Google Maps. But even so, then we have Engineers - Suleiman - Prophets: a triangle of about 100 x 200 x 200 m? That's ALL? Not a single house, just the E Jerusalem bus station and a parking lot. Can't be. I guess it must be Shivtei Israel - Paratroopers (former the westernmost stretch of Kanuni Sultan Süleyman Bulvarı, as our friend Erdogan would call it) - Prophets. Right? The smaller triangle mentioned above probably got demolished (war, then development). What were again the streets demarcating the boundaries around Nissan Beck/Nisan Bak's housing project?

PS: I love fun typos and other special words, even when they're not mine. I think Godrey de Bouiller must be our fellow Jerusalem fan, Godfrey de Bouillon, the man who led the friendly takeover of the city from messieurs les fatimides. (Not nice of the Brits to hit the local Arabs with this dead fish over the face.) Also ungrateful of Israel to only give the paratroopers a bend in the road that ends in a tunnel and passes next to a hospice for terminal cases (the French Hospital), but tough men can take it. And Hebrew insisting on this Heil here & Heil there is quite weird. Or is it just me? Arminden (talk) 00:51, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Bouillon; fixed. I was working off a 1990s tourist map that I had lying around, but now look in Google Maps at https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7822886,35.2280243,18.9z . You will see a little triangle with nothing inside except a littler triangle. On the left side is Highway 60 (aka Kheil Ha-Handasa St), on the bottom is Sultan Suleiman St, and on the upper right is Ha-Nevi'im St. You won't see the latter name unless you zoom in quite far. Ha-Nevi'im St crosses Highway 60 in a complicated intersection at the top left corner, and meets Sultan Suleiman St at a roundabout in the lower right corner. All this road work means that the streets might not align exactly with their past positions, but that doesn't matter for the current discussion.

If you zoom out on that map you will see Musrara indicated to the left of Highway 60, adjacent to the Russian Compound. Since this isn't confusing enough yet, now I found an Israeli map from 1949 that shows Musrara (in English and Hebrew) to the north of Street of the Prophets (where Google shows Batei Nitin). However, no boundaries are shown so I don't know the extent. Remember that the armistice lines were right here and that could be a large part of the reason why the name Musrara shifted generally to the west. The aforementioned little triangle was in no man's land (US Army map Series K931, Sheet Jerusalem 2, 1961). Zero^talk 03:03, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

That's what I've learned the hard way: there's no way to apply strict Western criteria to Middle Eastern toponymy (or anything else, for that matter). Yes, that's the area I've meant, too. The "empty triangle" is part of the E Jerusalem Central Bus Station (Bethlehem-bound and other lines; at the narrow tip of the triangle) and a parking lot. Very likely replacing demolished buildings. And Godfrey intersecting Sultan Suleyman was quite a feat of British municipal name-giving, a bit like a Napoleon - Marshal Zhukov junction in Moscow (and the typo was beautiful, bouclier is 'shield' in French, Godfrey took the title "protector of the Holy Sepulchre", so it fit perfectly). Arminden (talk) 14:11, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

taken over

Another complaint is "their houses were taken over by Christians and Muslims", which makes it sound like the Wild West. Under the British administration nobody could simply "take over" someone else's house. The British would have had the squatters out pronto. I changed "taken over" to "occupied" as used in the Rossoff source, which allows for some sort of process even though it gives no clue as to what that process was. That's not great either and a more detailed description should be found. Zero^talk 02:47, 4 October 2020 (UTC)