Talk:Kizlar agha

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2020 and 24 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JoseRickAndrade.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:42, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

"Basilica" story

The story of the deed of Athens to one Basilica by Ahmed is only rapported by Augustinos as it is told in Madeleine-Angélique de Gomez's book, but she doesn't seem to endorse it as historical. It appears to be no more than a local tradition, rapported by Guillet in 1675 (Athènes ancienne et nouvelle, pp 163-174 [1]). The sentence should be reworded accordingly. (I didn't look for a source, but it seems more plausible, if less colorful, that at one time some (feminine?) member of the Ottoman household etablished Athens as a wakuf, which thus came under the Kizlar agha's juridiction like other wakufs).--Phso2 (talk) 12:31, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi Phso2, I am not so sure that Augustinos rejects the historicity of the account; Gomez' retelling may be somewhat fictionalized, but the impression I get is that she relies on real events and figures (like Kösem); plus I've encountered this story in other historical works as well, without much doubt cast on its authenticity. I've amended the section somewhat to indicate that the account may contain some fictional elements, but I think the story should remain as told, due to it being relatively well-known. Constantine ✍ 10:14, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Well I may be overcautious, but imho every colorful romantic story involving (otherwise unheard of) "sultans favorites" should be treated with caution.^{personal interpretation}.

Augoustinos 's topic is the 17th-18th cent. literary figure of the "Greek harem concubine", so she doesn't explicitly reject nor endorse the story in a historical point of view, she just describes 17-18th cent. western authors' approach.

Since the story seems well known and since there is a lack of archivial documentation on the subject (until Ottoman state archives become better published and studied?) your version seems ok, but note that even in the 17th c. Jacob Spon wrote that the story of this "Johahi" was "better known in France than in Athens" ([2]), as William Miller remarks ([3]).--Phso2 (talk) 14:52, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed reply Phso2 , I just now saw your reply. I also generally tend to err on the side of caution, but this tale is so often encountered in modern works that it should be included (whether it was invented/re-introduced via France and Britain is-somewhat-beside the point here, since it forms part of the 'common narrative' surrounding this topic). If you encounter any source that is more definite about this figure's historicity, please let me know though. PS, heartfelt wishes for a happy and productive new year! Constantine ✍ 20:04, 5 January 2020 (UTC)