Talk:Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross

First pictures of KC w/ Diamonds didn't load for me

Everything looked fine, can others view? Historian932 (talk) 04:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

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Delete this please

"meaning a no-win-situation e.g. taking the CO's daughter out to a prom or having dinner with an inspecting general." not funny...89.35.62.12 (talk) 05:47, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

under the same general idea, vandalism in the first section's heading reads "wikipedia is evil they are fascist oppresors of free thought long live produde94". i dont know what the original heading was so i wont delete it just yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.134.51 (talk) 19:43, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

points

...and Luftwaffe pilots could qualify for accumulating 20 "points" [with one point being awarded for shooting down a single-engine plane, two points for a twin-engine plane, and three for a four-engine plane, with all points being doubled at night].

Hallo, my name ist Rainer and i am from Germany. The information in the artice about the system of points is not correct. The german Luftwaffe developed a system of points because of the american combat boxes of B-17-airplanes. Ordinarily a german figther could not shot down a B-17 by the first attack. After the first attack - both the german figther and the B-17 or B-24-bomber were damaged. The damaged german fighter returned to his airport ( or craches ) and the B-17 felt out of the formation. The next german fighter attacked the damaged bomber and achieves an aerial victory. Some german fighter pilot says this was an injustice. The first fighter-pilot was the hero, because he attacks the whole formation of bombers but he recieves nothing. The second fighter pilot who has waited behind the combat box for shooting down damaged bombers achieves an aerial victory. Because of this injustice a system of points was developed.

• 3 points for shooting down a bomber at the first attack ( bomber must have been flown in the combat box )

• 2 points for attacking a bomber which was damaged by this attack and fell out of combat box because of this attack, this was called "Herausschuss"

• 1 point for shooting down a damaged bomber, which flew behind an combat-box

There was no connection between the number of the engines and the number of the points.

Excuse please, my English is not perfect.

Viele Grüsse Rainer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.150.0.78 (talk) 06:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Overly detailed article

I was going to drop the

on this article as it really does have a lot of very detailed information that may not be overly useful for the general reader. However, I thought I'd ask for the opinions of others first. Londonclanger (talk) 20:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Military Slang

Some remarks from a native German: "In the military slang of the German soldiers the Knight's Cross is often referred to as the Blechkrawatte (tin-necktie)" - Tin (German: Zinn) isn't even remotely related to the German word "Blech". A proper translation of Blech would be "sheet" as in metal sheet. "Blech" is barely ever used to describe non-metal sheets in german. Alternatively "plate" might be a decent translation as well. Tin just doesn't fit at all.

"Glory-hungry soldiers seeking this medal (which was worn conspicuously around the neck or throat) were seen as suffering from Halsschmerzen: a cynical slang-term play on the word meaning "afflicted with throat trouble", having a "neck rash", "itching neck" or "sore throat"." - Halsschmerzen is the most common term to describe a sore throat in German. It's neither a cynical nor is it a slang-term or a play of words.

That put aside It sounds at least plausible the term "Halsschmerzen" has been used in this context. "Hals" describes the entirety of the body section in-between head and torso including the insides(like the throat, "Rachen" in german) and outsides. Perhaps as a result of this we often refer to "Nackenschmerzen" (pain in the rear section of the neck) as "Halsschmerzen". "Nacken" unlike the english neck usually only refers to the rear segment of the neck. On a side note we've got the term "Kehle" for the front section of the neck (though that term is also used as a synonym of "Rachen" as well). "Hals" is sort of the joker term, because it can be used to describe the entire body section.

True that "Blech" translated literally is "sheet (metal)". But it is a valid idiomatic translation into English to translate it as "tin" in this usage. In English, it would be natural to call the medal a "tin-necktie". Compare with tin can, "Blechdose", even if the can is made of sheet steel.

Best regards, TheBaron0530 (talk) 14:31, 9 May 2019 (UTC)theBaron0530

Iron Cross

This material on the Iron Cross appears to be too detailed for this article; moving here for storage:

• Initially, the Iron Cross award was of a temporary nature and could only be made when the country was in a state of war. A formal renewal procedure was required every time the award was to be presented. The renewal date, relating to the year of re-institution, therefore appears on the lower obverse arm of the Iron Cross. The Iron Cross was renewed twice after the Napoleonic Wars and prior to World War II. Its first renewal on 19 July 1870 was related to the Franco-Prussian War and its second renewal came on 5 August 1914, with the outbreak of World War I. The 1914 Iron Cross remained a Prussian decoration but could be awarded in the name of the Kaiser (as the King of Prussia) to members of all the German states' armies and of the Kaiserliche Marine (Imperial Navy). The regulation was extended and from 16 March 1915 the award could also be presented to individuals in the military forces of allies of the German state. During this period the Iron Cross was only awarded in three grades; the Iron Cross 2nd Class, Iron Cross 1st Class and the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross leaving a large gap between grades. There was no nationwide decoration placed between the Iron Cross 2nd and 1st Class, which could be awarded to soldiers of all ranks, and the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, which was awarded only to senior commanders for winning a major battle or campaign. This gap was partly filled by awards given from the Empire's member states. Among the best known of these awards are the Prussian Order Pour le Mérite and House Order of Hohenzollern, which could only be awarded to officers. For non-commissioned officers and soldiers the Prussian Golden Military Merit Cross was the highest achievable decoration. With the abdication of Kaiser Wilhelm II at the end of World War I the awards granted by the various royal households became obsolete.

References

K.e.coffman (talk) 01:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Enactments

Moving here for storage:

Wording of Reichsgesetzblatt I S. 1573

Verordnung über die Erneuerung des Eisernen Kreuzes	Enactment regarding the renewing of the Iron Cross
Nachdem ich mich entschlossen habe, das Deutsche Volk zur Abwehr gegen die ihm drohenden Angriffe zu den Waffen zu rufen, erneuere ich eingedenk der heldenmütigen Kämpfe, die Deutschlands Söhne in den früheren großen Kriegen zum Schutze der Heimat bestanden haben, den Orden des Eisernen Kreuzes.	After I decided to call the German people to arms in defense of the threat of being attacked, I renew in memory of the heroic battles, which Germany's sons have endured protecting the homeland in previous great wars, the Order of the Iron Cross.
Artikel 1	Article 1
Das Eiserne Kreuz wird in folgender Abstufung und Reihenfolge verliehen: Eiserne Kreuz 2. Klasse, Eiserne Kreuz 1. Klasse, Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes, Großkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes.	The Iron Cross will be awarded in the following grades and order: Iron Cross 2nd Class Iron Cross 1st Class Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross Grand Cross of the Iron Cross
Artikel 2	Article 2
Das Eiserne Kreuz wird ausschließlich für besondere Tapferkeit vor dem Feind und für hervorragende Verdienste in der Truppenführung verliehen. Die Verleihung einer höheren Klasse setzt den Besitz der vorangehenden Klasse voraus.	The Iron Cross is exclusively awarded for bravery before the enemy and for excellent merits in commanding troops. The award of a higher class must be preceded by the award of all preceding classes.
Artikel 3	Article 3
Die Verleihung des Großkreuzes behalte ich mir vor für überragende Taten, die den Verlauf des Krieges entscheidend beeinflussen.	I reserve for myself the power to award the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross, for superior actions that decisively influence the course of the war.
Artikel 4	Article 4
Das Eiserne Kreuz 2. Klasse und das Eiserne Kreuz 1. Klasse gleichen in Größe und Ausführung den bisherigen mit der Abweichung, daß auf der Vorderseite das Hakenkreuz und die Jahreszahl 1939 angebracht sind. Die 2. Klasse wird an einem schwarz-weiß-roten Bande im Knopfloch oder an der Schnalle, die 1. Klasse ohne Band auf der linken Brustseite getragen. Das Ritterkreuz ist größer als das Eiserne Kreuz 2. Klasse. Es wird an einem schwarz-weiß-roten Bande am Halse getragen. Das Großkreuz ist etwa doppelt so groß wie das Eiserne Kreuz 2. Klasse. Es wird an einem breiteren schwarz-weiß-roten Bande am Halse getragen.	The 2nd Class and 1st Class are of the same size and format as previous versions with the exception that the front sides bears the swastika and the date 1939. The 2nd Class is worn on a black-white-red band in the buttonhole or clasp, the 1st Class without band on the left breast side. The Knight's Cross is larger in size than the Iron Cross 1st Class and is worn around the neck (neck order) with a black-white-red band. The Grand Cross is approximately twice the size of the Iron Cross 1st Class, a golden trim instead of the silver trim and is worn around the neck with a broader black-white-red band.
Artikel 5	Article 5
Ist der Beliehene schon im Besitz einer oder beider Klassen des Eisernen Kreuzes des Weltkrieges, so erhält er an Stelle eines zweiten Kreuzes eine silberne Spange mit dem Hoheitszeichen und der Jahreszahl 1939 zu dem Eisernen Kreuz des Weltkrieges verliehen; die Spange wird beim Eisernen Kreuz 2. Klasse auf dem Bande getragen, beim Eisernen Kreuz 1. Klasse über dem Kreuz angesteckt.	In case the recipient already owns one or two of the classes of the Iron Cross from the World War, then instead of a second Cross a silver clasp to Iron Cross of the World War bearing the national emblem and the date 1939 is awarded; in case of the 2nd Class the clasp is worn on the band, in case of the 1st Class above the Cross.
Artikel 6	Article 6
Der Beliehene erhält eine Besitzurkunde.	The recipient receives a certificate of ownership.
Artikel 7	Article 7
Das Eiserne Kreuz verbleibt nach dem Ableben des Beliehenen als Erinnerungsstück den Hinterbliebenen.	The Iron Cross shall be retained as an heirloom by the heirs of the recipient after his demise.
Artikel 8	Article 8
Die Durchführungsbestimmungen erläßt der Chef des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht im Einverständnis mit dem Staatsminister und Chef der Präsidialkanzlei. Berlin, den 1. September 1939.	The processing provisions are released by the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces in cooperation with the State Minister and Chief of the Presidential Chancellery. Berlin, 1 September 1939
Der Führer Adolf Hitler	Der Führer Adolf Hitler
Der Chef des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht Wilhelm Keitel	Chief of the Armed Forces High Command Wilhelm Keitel
Der Reichsminister des Innern Dr. Wilhelm Frick	Minister of the Interior Dr. Wilhelm Frick
Der Staatsminister und Chef der Präsidialkanzlei des Führers und Reichskanzlers Otto Meißner	State-Minister and Chief of the Presidential Chancellery of the Führer and Reich Chancellor Otto Meißner

Oak Leaves

Wording of Reichsgesetzblatt I S. 849

Artikel 1	Article 1
Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub	Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves
Artikel 4	Article 4
Das Eichenlaub zum Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes besteht aus drei silbernen Eichenblättern, die auf der Bandspange aufliegen.	The Oak Leaves to the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross are made of three silver oak leaves attached to the band clasp.

Swords

Wording of Reichsgesetzblatt I S. 613

Artikel 1	Article 1
Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit dem Eichenlaub mit Schwertern, Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit dem Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten,	Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds
Artikel 4	Article 4
Das Eichenlaub mit Schwertern zeigt unter den drei silbernen Blättern zwei gekreuzte Schwerter. Bei dem Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten sind die drei silbernen Blätter und die Schwertgriffe mit Brillanten besetzt.	The Oak Leaves and Swords depict two crossed swords beneath the three silver leaves. In case of the Oak Leaves with Swords and Diamonds the three silver leaves and the hilts of the swords are jewelled with Diamonds.

Diamonds

Wording of Reichsgesetzblatt 1945 I S. 11

Artikel 1	Article 1
Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit dem Goldenen Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten,	Knight's Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds
Artikel 2	Article 2
Das Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit dem Goldenen Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten wird nur zwölf mal verliehen, um höchstbewährte Einzelkämpfer, die mit allen Stufen des Ritterkreuzes des Eisernen Kreuzes ausgezeichnet sind, vor dem Deutschen Volke besonders zu ehren.	The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds is to be awarded twelve times only, to honor before the German people the most successful combatants, that have received all grades of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross.
Artikel 4	Article 4
Bei dem Goldenen Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten sind die drei Blätter und die Schwerter in Gold ausgeführt und wie bei dem silbernen Eichenlaub mit Brillanten besetzt.	In case of the Golden Oak Leaves with Swords and Diamonds the three leaves and the swords are made of gold and likewise jewelled with Diamonds.

K.e.coffman (talk) 23:32, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Dimensions

Moving here for storage as excessive intricate detail:

Oak Leaves

Gebrüder Godet & Co. Type	Dimensions			Material
	Height	Width	Weight
Type 1—"L/50"	19.1 mm (0.75 in)	20.1 mm (0.79 in)	6.7 g (0.24 oz)	Silver 900
Type 2—"21"	19.2 mm (0.76 in)	20.0 mm (0.79 in)	6.9 g (0.24 oz)	Silver 900

Diamonds

Manufacturer		Dimensions			Construction
		Height	Width	Weight	Material	Stone
Gebrüder Godet & Co.		30.1 mm (1.19 in)	19.9 mm (0.78 in)	9.3 g (0.33 oz)	Silver	Diamonds
Otto Klein	A-piece	32.2 mm (1.27 in)	22.4 mm (0.88 in)	14.4 g (0.51 oz)	Platinum	Diamonds
	B-piece	33.3 mm (1.31 in)	22.5 mm (0.89 in)	9.0 g (0.32 oz)	Silver	Rhinestone

K.e.coffman (talk) 23:36, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Recipients material from main page

Relocating here as I consider this to be undue opinions by AKCR and intricate detail:

Distribution by service

  Heer, 4786 (65.4%)

  Kriegsmarine, 318 (4.3%)

  Luftwaffe, 1759 (24.0%)

  Waffen-SS, 458 (6.3%)

The Association of Knight's Cross Recipients (AKCR) names 7,321 recipients of the Knight's Cross in the three military branches of the Wehrmacht (Heer (Army), Kriegsmarine (Navy) and Luftwaffe), the Waffen-SS, the Reichsarbeitsdienst (RAD) and the Volkssturm. The AKCR also lists 43 individuals from non-German Axis forces for a total of 7,364 recipients of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. 13 Swords recipients do not meet the formal awarding criteria of the Knight's Cross. Twenty-four recipients of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves are also lacking sustainable evidence that their listing is justifiable. Otto Weidinger, Günther-Eberhardt Wisliceny, Sylvester Stadler and Wilhelm Bittrich received the Swords from SS Obergruppenführer Josef Dietrich, who was not legally authorized to present the award.

References

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Opinions welcome. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:04, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Military slang

In the military slang of the German soldiers the Knight's Cross is often referred to as the Blechkrawatte (tin-necktie). Glory-hungry soldiers seeking this medal (which was worn conspicuously around the neck or throat) were seen as suffering from Halsschmerzen: a cynical slang-term play on the word meaning "afflicted with throat trouble", having a "neck rash", "itching neck" or "sore throat". (Navy slang: Draufgänger: a U-boat commander who was viewed as a "daredevil" seeking to earn the Knight's Cross by being too aggressive in endangering his own submarine and crew in pursuit of enemy ships. Different degrees of the Iron Cross were awarded based upon the number and/or tonnage of enemy ships sunk.) The term Ritterkreuz-Auftrag ("Knight's Cross Mission") referred to a mission that was extremely dangerous, or a no-win situation.

Moving here as uncited since June. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:14, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Historical context

I’ve been copy editing this article for concision (which I believe to have been an improvement). However, I feel that the article could be enhanced with the addition of contemporary German language sources. The subject of the Knight’s Cross and its recipients has apparently not been studied by English-speaking historians, and the current article is devoid of historical context, which is a missed opportunity, IMO. For example, here are some questions I had while looking into the subject of KC recipients on Wikipedia:

1. why was the rate of the KC awards increasing exponentially as the war progressed? (the rate of Oak Leaves wer doubling every year, for example)
2. what role did the propaganda imperatives play in who was nominated / awarded?
3. did the rate of awards correlate in any way with the units’ combat performance?
4. how were KC recipients viewed in the Bundeswehr—did this fact impede or advance their careers?
5. how did hagiographic literature on highly decorated German soldiers came about — who writes it, who publishes it, who consumes it; etc.?

I find awards of the totalitarian regimes to be an important topic, so I feel this could be a fascinating article, vs its current, phaleristics-only focus. Ping @Assayer: to see if there may be an interest in contributing. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:42, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

The Holocaust and crimes comitted by Wehrmacht and Waffen SS belong to the context.Xx236 (talk) 07:27, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Translating "Zeichen" in the "Post-War" section

The first sentence currently reads, "The German Law about Titles, Orders and Honorary Signs (German language: Gesetz über Titel, Orden und Ehrenzeichen)..." While "Zeichen" translated literally into English is "sign" ("token" is the cognate), a better translation would be "Emblem" or "Insignia".

I didn't want to change this, without first bringing this up, out of deference to whomever the author of the section is.

Best regards, TheBaron0530 (talk) 14:35, 9 May 2019 (UTC)theBaron0530

Editing priorities

For a relatively detailed Wired article about some of the editing priorities here, see: "One Woman’s Mission to Rewrite Nazi History on Wikipedia" ().Anotherprimate (talk) 12:52, 22 July 2023 (UTC) Anotherprimate (talk) 12:52, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

References