Talk:Knight-errant

Merge to chivalry

I think this page should be merged into Chivalry. Please comment if you agree or disagree. Krubo 12:19, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As it stands I'm inclined to agree; very dicdefish, can be split back out later if there's a large expansion of relevant material. Alai 04:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. This can be expanded and is a term with its own history and specific uses. Stbalbach 16:42, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

What happened to Arrant?

I followed a google link for a definition of Arrant that had an interesting statement about the derivation from errant. I wanted to read the whole sentence but when I got here all there is is 'merged with Knight-errant'. What happened to Arrant? Has it been moved to wiktionary? If not, can we have it back? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.195.5.7 (talk) 21:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

question ??

is Sir Knolte of Marlborough (Tom Wilkinson) in Black Knight movie an example of knight errant ??

Youxia

Why were the Chinese Youxia put in here and not given their own page? Goldfritha 02:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Because there are other instances of Knight errants in other cultures. If it's such a problem, expand the material on the European knight. The info is very scant not to mention the source is questionable. I do not think Q & A sites that allow anonymous people to answer questions is a reliable enough source.

There is no reason for me to create a page consisting of two paragraphs when there is already an article on the Knight Errant. They are both in the same category, one is just Chinese. Knights errant from other cultures could be added as well, that's why I created the "Other cultures" section. (Ghostexorcist 10:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

It is somewhat controversial, applying western medieval terms to other cultures. Who called them knight errants? The term "knight errant" has certain implications and meanings, I suppose it could be done in an analogous way, but they were not called knight errants historically, or even today, except as analogy. I suggest we create a new article, but keep them linked somehow. -- Stbalbach 16:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Controversial? What in the world are you talking about? Please explain this to me.

The Yellow Bridge Chinese dictionary translates Youxia as a roaming or wandering chivalrous person or Knight-errant. (see here for more details). Babelfish translates it as Knight-errant. Just type in the Chinese characters from the page and select “simplified Chinese”. Look at the reference section of the article and you will see my source for the Chinese material, it is a book called the Chinese Knight Errant. It’s not like I’m pulling the name out of thin air.

The aforementioned book has a very large section dealing with the many similarities between the Chinese and European Knights-errant. Just like their European counter part, these men traveled by their lonesome and battled for the common good of the people, all the while never asking for anything in return. I see no problem in mentioning it in this article. (Ghostexorcist 17:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

Medieval historians are generally cautious about applying terms used in Eurpoean history to non-European cultures. It is commonly done as an analogy or in popular history, but it is problematic, and often done for political reasons. For example see Indian feudalism. We can of course mention it in this article, but Youxia should have its own article, this is about the medieval (ie. European) knight-errant. -- Stbalbach 18:27, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm a westerner, so I have no political agenda in putting this material on the page. This is a completely different situation in regards to the Indian feudalism subject. It seems like it was European historians who were codifying Indian history. However, in this case, it’s a Chinese historian (and many other experts and sources) comparing it to the European. I fully understand that this is about the European knight-errant (I would have to be blind or otherwise illiterate to not notice this). I only added the pertinent Chinese material so as not to totally engulf the main bit about their European counter parts. I'll leave the main Youxia article to someone more qualified than myself.

I'm sure the main body of material about the European knight-errant could be greatly expanded. This way, The part about the Chinese would serve to show that the Europeans had their own counterparts on the other side of the world.(18:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

Being a westerner does not demonstrate that you have no agenda. And comparing them to European knights requires more, not fewer, qualifcations than an article on them Goldfritha 00:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, is there something wrong with you? Are you a conspiracy theorist? There is no agenda! Why does someone have to have an agenda just to add information to this page? The page already describes the qualities possessed by the European knights-errant, the Chinese are along the same lines, and therefore, I shouldn’t have to go into great detail. I’m not pulling this idea about a Chinese Knight-errant out of thin air. I’ve given a source; you can look it up with the ISBN#.

It sounds like you have a superiority complex. You act like European Knights-errant are supreme to everyone else (which is super POV). My intent was not to malign, but to enhance the page with material showing these chivalrous knights had counterparts in other countries. I’ll say it again, there is no agenda! (Ghostexorcist 01:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC))

Please remain WP:CIVIL and refrain from WP:Personal attacks or we will have a problem that goes beyond "knight errants". Medieval historians are generally cautious about applying terms used in European history to non-European cultures. It is commonly done as an analogy or in popular history, but it is problematic. Calling a Chinese class of warriors "knights", much less "Knight-errant"'s is not precise. It may be done as analogy or in popular culture, it is possible to discuss the connections here, but to be precise and accurate these two class of warriors need to have separate articles. -- Stbalbach 15:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thank you I know about wikipedia’s policy on civility and personal attacks. You should try telling that your friend who keeps on accusing me of having an agenda. Anyway, like I've said before, it is not Medieval historians who are applying the term here, it is Chinese historians, therefore there is no need to repeat yourself. Saying the comparison between the two is “not precise” is incorrect. I have a feeling that your reluctance is based on the fact you don’t know enough about the history. It is a precise term because these men traveled the land (by themselves) helping those in need. Just like their European counter part, they aligned themselves with a lord and sometimes they didn't. There are even romance stories (i.e. adventure) that talk about them fighting Chinese dragons and other monsters.

Why is this such an important article all of a sudden? When I came to it, it wasn't even wikified. It was just three paragraphs stretched out with two huge pictures. I wikified it when I added the Chinese stuff. I hope this article will be greatly expanded. Even the source of it's info is more in depth than this. Why not consult other sources (ie. books, journals, ect.) other than questionable Q & A sites? If you refer to my user page, you will see that I belong to a number of projects that deal in medieval history (as I'm sure you do too). Why not ask for others to collaborate on this page? (Ghostexorcist 19:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC))

I would like to note that Wiktionary defines the 'Xia' of Yuxia as “1) Chivalrous person, 2) Knight errant” [1]. The Chinese knight-errant came about during the Han Dynasty. Before this time, xia was pronounced 'Xie' which means 'force'. It is now pronounced 'Xia', which is translated as 'Knight-errant'. (Ghostexorcist 00:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)) (Ghostexorcist 21:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC))

Keeps on accusing you?

Ghostexorcist, you brought up the issue of agendas. You asserted that clearly you had no agenda -- and cited as proof that you are a westerner. That is not evidence against it, and I pointed it out. Once. That isn't even an accusation but pointing out a flaw in your argument.

And I pointed it out because you considered the matter of your not having an agenda relevant to this page. Goldfritha 01:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

You are correct that I am the first to mention the word "agenda". However, that was my response to Stbalbach’s comment "Medieval historians are generally cautious about applying terms used in Eurpoean history to non-European cultures. It is commonly done as an analogy or in popular history, but it is problematic, and often done for political reasons. For example see Indian feudalism." I’m by no means accusing him of anything. I replied that I had "no political agenda" ("political reasons") for adding the info to the page. Like I've said before, it was Chinese specialists who called these warriors 'Knights-errant', not myself. I’ll admit that “keeps on accusing” was the wrong wordage and I apologize for that mistake. I should have just said “accused”. Your comment of saying “Being a westerner does not demonstrate that you have no agenda” is the same as an accusation. Me having an agenda or not is very relevant to the page. I have a feeling that others believe I put the Chinese material on the page to either malign the European knight or, like the idea of Indian feudalism, to codify aspects of Chinese culture into European structure, both of which are untrue.

I think I have thoroughly proven that Youxia is translated as Knight-errant and that the similarities are enough to keep the section on this page. However, I plan on expanding this material and moving it to its own page in the near future. Once this is done, I believe the “Other cultures” section could be kept and a sentence or two about similar warriors from different countries could be added and linked to their main articles. I notice there is a link to the Russian Bogatyr page. I think more people would go to this article if they had a short description of who they were. The same could be said for the Paladin.

This discussion is starting to get ridiculous. I know I’m partly to blame myself. I request that any discussions that have nothing to do with the actual “betterment” of the main article be moved to user talk pages.(Ghostexorcist 05:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC))

Request for comment

This is a dispute about whether information about Chinese Youxia belongs on the "Knight-errant" page as opposed to a new page of its own. 01:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in the dispute

• Unsuitable. Lumping them together on the grounds that the term is translated "knight-errant" will only produce confusion. Goldfritha 01:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

• Suitable. As I've previously explained, the qualities of the European and Chinese Knights-errant are along the same lines, and since these qualities are already explained early in the article, I shouldn't have to explain anything more than what I already have on the page. The Chinese material is completely partitioned off from the main information. It is under the "Other cultures" section. Therefore, readers should be able to distinguish that it is an example of similar men from another culture. (Ghostexorcist 01:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC))

• Unsuitable. Just because the Chinese translate Youxia to "knight-errant" doesn't mean they actually are knight-errants, according to the definition used in the lead section of this article, which says: A knight-errant is a figure of medieval chivalric romance literature (medieval=European). This article is about the European phenomenon. To write this article from top to bottom about the Chinese and European lumped together is wrong, confusing and original research - there was no historical connection between the two - the connection is made by analogy by 20th Century historians. It is appropriate to mention the analogy and similarities here, but Youxia still needs its own primary article. In addition it will be confusing for Categories purposes. Other medieval topics on Wikipedia separate European topics from other cultures. -- Stbalbach 20:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Comments

I never attempted to pass them off as Chinese warriors in European armor. The "Other cultures" section was created to show that the Medieval knights had counterparts in China. It is not "original research" as you put it. I have given a source, look it up

-- Liu, James J.Y. The Chinese Knight Errant. London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1967 (ISBN 0-2264-8688-5) --

There is no mention of the knights-errant of China (China=Chinese) in the lead, therefore it is not "top to bottom". Readers should be able to distinguish the difference because of its positions in the "Other cultures" section. There is also very large amounts of chivalric romance literature on the Chinese Knight-errant.

I will remove the info, however, the "Other cultures" section should be kept to at least describe who these similar warriors were from other cultures. a sentence or two about them should be a proper introduction to the initiated.(Ghostexorcist 21:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC))

Ghostexorcist, thank you for creating Chinese knight-errant. I checked Google Books and it seems to be a popularly used term. Please do re-add some description here with a link to that article as you see best. -- Stbalbach 05:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll add a sentence or two shortyly. (Ghostexorcist 11:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC))

Ronin

Shouldn't ronin be mentioned In other Cultures? Paradoctor (talk) 08:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Persians

The Parthians form the Persian Empire were the first knights in shining armor. Persian armored warriors each mounted on an armored horse was something that wouldn't be seen in Western Europe for another 1,500 years, and led to a defeat of Roman forces. numbering 40 000 men. Perhaps this is worth a mention, since many believe knights on horses was something that started with Europeans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeplY1pkjzg&feature=player_embedded watch part 4:10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 00:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Historical Knights Errant

Are there any examples of historical Knights Errant? The Chinese Youxia article indicates that although there is a healthy amount of literature and fantasy related to Youxia, it has a historical root. This article seems to indicate that the idea of the European Knight errant is entirely fictional or legendary. --Minguo (talk) 21:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, there were historical knights-errant. For Spain in the fifteenth century alone there is a monograph on the topic: Martí de Riquer, Caballeros andantes españoles (Espasa-Calpe, 1967).

The article unfortunately neglects the historical roots (and effects) of the literary knights. Srnec (talk) 02:00, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Historical examples can be found not the least among those who left us tales of knights-errant themselves. A lot of the "Minnesänger"-type minstrels were, in fact, knights, but without specific fief (Walter von der Vogelweide actually wrote a song about finally getting a fief) and depended on support from changing courts, roaming from court to court when they had, sometimes due to their sharp tongue, overstayed their welcome at one location, or simply wanted to get the support of a specific court (perhaps because it was in the region they grew up in and had a nostalgic attachment to) and showed up there whenever someone new was in power. Walter von der Vogelweide, who had been trained in Austria in his younger days, repeatedly showed up in Vienna in this way. --2A02:810C:380:1DEC:55EE:F72F:2C61:A80A (talk) 11:01, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

"Errant" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Errant and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 17#Errant until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. BD2412 T 19:48, 17 July 2022 (UTC)