Talk:Kobani/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Kobani. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

storm OR liberate OR capture

Latest comment: 11 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Lets sort this out before we have a list of editions on this little article. IF you ARE referring to a source, search for your word...does the Rudaw article mention "capture"? or is it "liberate"? Hiwakan (talk) 20:30, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Rudaw would not be considered a reliable source. And even if it is, "liberated" is not a neutral word, nor is "stormed". The first is biased in favor of the opposition, while the second is biased in favor of the regime. The best word be "captured" because it just states fact. The Eurasia Review, which is reliable, simply writes that the YPG "assumed control" of the city. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:41, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Etana source

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I doubt this Etana source, its credibility and the source of their numbers. In the absence of any official numbers (or even estimates), anyone can give any number on the constituents. The report also cites that 40% of the Kurdish fighters in the city came from Turkey, creating another source of uncertainty. I suggest removing the proportion numbers altogether. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 15:23, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

City Name-District Name

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I see a war over the Kurdish vs Arab name of this city and area. Remember this page is under 1RR sanctions. Perhaps the warring editor would like to state their case here? Legacypac (talk) 23:23, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 1

Latest comment: 10 years ago49 comments20 people in discussion

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to Kobanê, per the discussion below. Please initiate a new discussion if you think a further move is necessary. If move protection is needed, please ask an uninvolved admin to protect the page, and refer them to this discussion if necessary to prevent locking "the wrong version." Dekimasuよ! 06:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Ayn al-Arab → Kobani – New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Al Jazeera English, CNN, RT, Bloomberg, NPR, CBS News, Haaretz English, Huffington Post, Los Angeles Times, Al Monitor English, The Guardian, NBCNews, Radio Free Europe, New York Sun, Reuters, Deutsche Welle English, Voice of America... 174.19.225.169 (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Oppose per policy: Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The organizations working in the area are all Kurdish, so they use the Kurdish name when they are reporting from the area in the latest events and therefor some western journalists inaccurately follow the Kurdish name. And the accurate, historical, official and original real name Ayn al Arab is used also by media:CNN, NYT, Al Jazeera. The real name of the town is Ayn al-Arab, and it is also used by the United Nations: [1] and the CIA :[2]. If we look at published books, then "Ayn al Arab" gets 20,700 hits:[3] while the false name "kobani" only gets 3,280 hits: [4]. Latest events can not change the real, historical, original and official name of the town.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:45, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Oppose We can't simply change an OFFICIAL name for a city based on newspapers and political bias. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 01:03, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
WP:OFFICIALNAME we do not use official names on Wikipedia. We use common names WP:UCN as found in English WP:UE ; So we should look at the most common name as found used in English. -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 04:05, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Support with slight change: The name should be Kobanê. That matches the region Kobanê Canton and the Siege of Kobanê. The WP:COMMONNAME here is not even a contest. Kobane About 10,500,000 results vs "Ayn al-Arab" About 2,290,000 results and many of those pages call the city by the Kurdish name as well in the result preview. The 5:1 results have been holding as I've checked this a few times over the last few days. "Siege of Kobane" vs "Siege of Ayn al-Arab" results were 22:1 when I checked earlier today. Also as a practical matter the city has been controlled by the Syrian Kurdish govt for some time, and as the governing authority they pick the name-saying the regime's name is official rings hollow when the regime has not controlled it for quite a while. Also compelling is that I see Kurds dying not defend the place, not Arab Syrian regime troops. Legacypac (talk) 08:14, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

"Matches"? Then Ayn al Arab "matches" Ayn al-Arab District. The google hits are because of the latest events were news organizations are following the kurdish name because the activists reporting from the area are all kurdish, so of course they use the kurdish name. If we take a look at published books before the latest news events then "Ayn al Arab" gets 20,700 hits:[5] while the false name "kobani" only gets 3,280 hits: [6]. Wikipedia is not a newspaper should apply here. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness, your constant patronizing use of "the false name 'kobani'" indicates a strong and biased WP:POV that makes it very hard to take your arguments seriously. Wikipedia does not take sides, we try to follow common usage, as indicated below.Jeppiz (talk) 14:04, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Strong support Should be moved to Kobane immediately as per WP:UE and WP:UCN.The official name is not relevant (see Rome, not Roma, Venice not Venezia, Copenhagen not København etc.). The Wikipedia says explicitly that readers should find the article under the name they expect. In English coverage, Kobane outnumbers Ayn al-Arab by something like 10 to 1. If readers come here looking for Kobane, they should find it under that name. This is not a matter of opinion, it's Wikipedia's stated policy.Jeppiz (talk) 09:14, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Oppose While I don't like the fact that the central government has named a majority Kurdish town something as provocative as "The Spring of the Arabs" (What about the Kurds?), I believe that Wikipedia should generally respect state sovereignty first and foremost. Similarly, for this reason, I support Myanmar over Burma, Côte d'Ivoire over Ivory Coast, and Timor-Leste over East Timor. Furthermore, Ayn al-Arab is recognized throughout the world community - even by the Syrian government's opponents. --Tocino 09:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Who says that its a "kurdish town" ? Its a Syrian town, kurds were not the first people who lived there. They moved in later, just like many other towns in Syria. Many different ethnic groups lived in Ayn al Arab. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Tocino's point does not follow WP policy while Supreme Deliciousness's point does not take into account that the name Ayn al Arab was imposed on Kobani in the 1980s to Arabize the place. Legacypac (talk) 11:11, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, sovereignty does not trump WP:UE and WP:UCN. Some years ago Italy tried to push Torino instead of Turin in English. Sovereignty is relevant if there are several names and no common English usage. In this case, there most certainly is common English usage. Jeppiz (talk) 09:32, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem is on English world maps you will see the town listed as Ayn al-Arab, and not as Kobane. That's not the case with Torino, København, Venezia, etc. --Tocino 09:39, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

That's not a problem, no. It's not unusual that more than one name is sometimes used in English (Bozen/Bolzano or Lyons/Lyon or Raseborg/Raasepori to take a few examples). In those cases, we still stick to the rules of WP:UCN so if one name is in more common use, we use that one. Sometimes, as in Finland, Switzerland or Italy, we go with the name of the majority population in the place itself. In the case of Kobane, that's Kobane. So even if we did not have a much more comononly used name in English, Wikipedia would still favour Kobane. But as it is, Kobane is used 10 to 1 in English. The article about the battle of the city is called Siege of Kobanê so it's mightily illogic to use another name here.Jeppiz (talk) 10:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, Tocino, but your argument that state sovereignty comes first would mean overturning some well-established decisions of Wikipedia in favour of Burma, Ivory Coast and East Timor. PatGallacher (talk) 23:43, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Nice try, but those are not "well-established" decisions at all. Every time those three articles get RM'd they get scores of inputs and are generally argued to death. The decision to move the article for Myanmar to Burma in 2007 was particularly controversial. --Tocino 09:20, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

There is also Taiwan and Republic of Ireland. I don't think those are likely to be moved anytime soon. "Republic of China" and "Ireland" are official and constitutionally enshrined. Claimsworth (talk) 10:19, 11 October 2014 (UTC) (sock)

Strong Support Syria is a multi-cultural and multi-linguistic country, hence places have multiple names in different languages. There is not one "true" name with the rest being "false". That is as absurd as saying there is a "true" language, and that the rest are "false". Aleppo and Damascus have multiple names, and in the English Wikipedia we use the most common English name. Not the official one, not the name most used by the locals, not the original etymon. All this favours Kobani. 88.170.241.162 (talk) 06:04, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Support. On Highbeam for the last two years, I get 118 news stories for the current title. For the proposed form, I get 379 for "Kobani Syria" plus 136 for "Kobane Syria." I don't think the town has ever been in the international spotlight before, so what books published years ago might have called it is less relevant. Claimsworth (talk) 08:57, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

As you said, it was in the news yesterday, less today, and less tomorrow. What will remain from this dust storm is the actual name and the name on maps (look up Google maps). Again, ISIL might even give it a new name, who knows. Cheers. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 12:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Please read WP:CRYSTAL.Jeppiz (talk) 15:42, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Support. Should be moved to Kobane immediately as per WP:UE and WP:UCN. --جیمبو دامبلی دیمبو (talk) 16:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Strong Support. Only disingenuous pov bias would keep one from realizing that the name of the article should clearly be Kobani (English spelling) with a note of the Kurdish spelling (Kobanê) and clarification that the city was formerly referred to as Ayn al-Arab. Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:26, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Formerly? on October 6 2014 United Nations called it Ayn al-Arab:[7] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:30, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting but the UN is very concerned with sovereignty of nation states, and not common names or WP policy which seriously favors the Kurdish name. Legacypac (talk) 09:21, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Support Kobane or Kobani is what everybody is calling it in English language media, never heard it called by the other name. Also, as it has a predominantly Kurdish population presumably this is how it is known to the majority of its inhabitants. PatGallacher (talk) 18:21, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Strong support for the same reasons PatGallacher mentions. Either Kobani (Kobanî?) or Kobanê would be fine. Q·L·1968 ☿ 03:00, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Support whichever is the COMMONNAME. Kobane is used by BBC. (this should logically match the other articles, whichever way they need to be changed to). Widefox; talk 12:34, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Strong Oppose Ayn Al-Arab is a Syrian city and the sole official language in Syria is Arabic. Kobanî: Is a name derived from the German company that created the Orient Express line i 1911, it means that the Kobane name is just some 100 years old who is originally a foreign name. So the city of Ayn Al-Arab is an Arab Assyrian Syrian old city long before the Kurds inhabited it?--Uishaki (talk) 12:44, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

So once again, the official language is not what Wikipedia goes by. We use Rome, not Roma, Venice not Venezia, Copenhagen not København, Munich, not München, Lisbon not Lisbia etc. When there is a name in common usage in English, that's the name we use regardless of the official language and definitely regardless of the origin of the different names.Jeppiz (talk) 14:06, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Support - per WP:COMMONNAME.GreyShark (dibra) 13:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Support - per WP:COMMONNAME - but would prefer Kobane. Aa77zz (talk) 16:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules

It might be relevant for the discussion above to keep in mind what WP:UCN states as Wikipedia policy:
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. This includes usage in the sources used as references for the article. If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes, then more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change.

All of this would seem to favour Kobane. We don't need to use the official name. We should use the name most frequently used in English references (Kobane). If the situation changes (as it has with the Syrian civil war), we should give preference to more recent WP:RS, and they almost unanimously favours Kobane. So if we want to follow Wikipedia policies (and we do), I don't see how we could not move the article to Kobane.Jeppiz (talk) 10:50, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

All of this would favour Ayn al-Arab per policy: Wikipedia is not a newspaper. We would have to look at published books before the latest events. Google books gives "Ayn al Arab" gets 20,700 hits:[8] while the false name "kobani" only gets 3,280 hits: [9]. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:37, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Jeppiz, if you are going by the common name, then ISIL might give it a different name, would we have to follow the new name then? BTW, the "Kobani Canton" (and other alleged "Cantons") should be deleted or at best merged with Ayn al-Arab District, since there is nothing on the ground with that name. It's just a political entity the YPG has invented with no international recognition what soever. Even other Kurds (Kurdish National Council and Iraqi Kurdistan) are not recognizing that. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 16:09, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Again, please read WP:CRYSTAL.Jeppiz (talk) 15:42, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Policy: Wikipedia is not a newspaper has zero to do with this discussion. We are not discussing the notability of this city or the events happening in it. Rather Naming Conventions - geographic names should guide us.

History of the Name: Took some serious searching but finally found this researched article hich says "...in the Aleppo countryside, is the Kurdish community of Kobani. (State policy Arabized this town’s name in the 1980s to ‘Ayn al-‘Arab, meaning the “spring of the Arabs.” The running joke among residents is that the town has neither Arabs nor a spring.)" Evidently "Ayn al-Arab" is a fairly recent political and ethnic driven construct over the historical name that the residents rejected. Since the State withdrew its forces from the area in July 2013, leaving the Kurds in control, it seems like the Kurds can pick the official name, and choose to keep using old name. Legacypac (talk) 09:43, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Not a reliable source. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:41, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness said above: "Latest events can not change the real, historical, original and official name of the town". The quoted article is by Kevin Mazur, a doctoral candidate at the Department of Politics at Princeton University and Kheder Khaddour is a visiting fellow at the Carnegie Middle East Center. The organization was founded in 1971, has an expert board of directors and an editorial board filled with academics from leading universities. Rejecting http://www.merip.org/about as a reliable source shows a total lack of understanding of WP policy or good judgement and an opinion that can safely be ignored as POV. Legacypac (talk) 15:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed; this does look like a reliable source. Q·L·1968 ☿ 18:09, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

WP's Middle_East_Research_and_Information_Project own article on the source says: According to JSTOR, The Middle East Report "is the foremost U.S. magazine of critical analysis on the Middle East", with 25,000 US and global readers and more than 700 educational and institutional subscriptions. Legacypac (talk) 18:44, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, JSTOR hosts the MERIP Reports and Middle East Reports from 1971 to 2010, so they have a vested interest in promoting it. But Mazur and Khaddour's article can stand on its own strengths. Q·L·1968 ☿ 20:16, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Kobani vs Kobane

I ran some searches on Kobani vs Kobane and found mixed results depending if you search news vs web and over what time period. On our articles we seem to use Kobane consistently including Syrian_Kurdistan Kobanê_Canton and Siege of Kobane and of course this page was once at Kobanê. So between the i and the e we should use the e. Legacypac (talk) 12:37, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree, Kobane seems to be more common and it's consistent with usage in other articles.Jeppiz (talk) 13:00, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

English media seems to have settled on "Kobani" now. Just some examples from today: Your spelling of KOBANI IS WRONG PKK and YPG spell it with and E at the end. KOBANI KOBANI KOBANI how many times do we have to tell you it is not Kobane it is KOBANI. Thank you.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/08/new-air-strikes-isis-pressure-win-kobani-syria-kurds-turkey

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/syria-town-of-kobani-on-turkish-border-will-fall-to-isis-turkish-leader-says-1.2789820

--Harizotoh9 (talk) 16:05, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

The English spelling would use an "i", as English does not have the letter "ě". However, that is an I sound in English. Spelling it Kobane, makes the name "Ko bane" (like Kurt the singer, ironically spelled with an i himself). However, in Kurdish Kobaně is a 3 syllable word, not 2 (which is what spelling it Kobane makes it). As such, the only two options are an "i" or an "ě". Since Wiki articles in English usually only use English letters, I'd say an "i" = Kobani, makes the most sense. Redthoreau -- (talk) 23:52, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd be happy with either an i or an e. For the record, however English Wikipedia articles routinely use non-English symbols in foreign place names; with redirects, that's not a problem. (Also it's ê not ě.) Q·L·1968 ☿ 03:00, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

No one in the world calls this place anything but Kobane. I am changing it back — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.128.104.6 (talk) 00:46, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

History of Page Moves This article was created back in 2007 but since 2012 (when the Kurds took control of the city) many editors have regularly moved it to Kobane or Kobani, usually citing COMMONNAME, so changing the name is not a new idea. The page even used the Kurdish name as late as a week ago. Defenders of the Arabic name keep moving it back without discussion, and have moved it several times during this discussion citing that 7 days have not elapsed yet. After the next move to Kobani the page should be locked because the defenders of the Arabic name fail to consider WP policy. Legacypac (talk) 21:31, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Newspapers

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There seems to be some misunderstanding of "Wikipedia is not a Newspaper", see WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. It doesn't mean that what newspapers call a town does not carry some weight in deciding what is the common name. PatGallacher (talk) 14:58, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism

Latest comment: 10 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

This IP removed the official name of the town, and falsely added that it is a "Kurdish" town, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koban%C3%AA&diff=629644224&oldid=629643660

If no explanation can be provided I'm gonna revert this vandalism. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:11, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I think it is a Kurdish town, don't think this was vandalism. I recognize it was a rather partisan edit, so ok to revert, but there may still be a better wording. PatGallacher (talk) 14:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Since 2012 there has been no regime forces as they withdrew and left the Kurds in control. Regime is not contesting town now. Population is 90%+ Kurdish and only 5% Arab. This is or was detailed in the article. Legacypac (talk) 17:26, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

See the decision on common name closed above. I have tagged the article that anyone that changes the names in the article will be reported for vandalism. Legacypac (talk) 23:04, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Legacypac, there is a difference between vandalism and edit wars over content disputes. Both are frowned upon, but it's worth making the distinction. Also, I have to agree with PatGallacher, if this isn't a "Kurdish town" I don't known what would be. --dab (𒁳) 19:15, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

To Wikipedia admins

Latest comment: 10 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

It is not your duty to change a name of a city which given by a legitimate government — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isuruwe (talk • contribs) 12:11, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

It is our "duty" to follow Wikipedia guidelines, which in this case means, use whichever name is most common in English-language sources. Governments and their legitimacy or non-legitimacy don't enter into it. --dab (𒁳) 19:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Please note that although I was the administrator who closed the recent request that resulted in moving the city to Kobanê, I do not have any personal investment in calling the page by a particular name. Further, I am given to understand that "ê" is pronounced like "i" in English here, but I have no opinion about what title or spelling is "correct." If someone would like to initiate a further move request, it would make sense to include at least this page, Siege of Kobanê, and Kobanê Canton. Undiscussed forking such as that instituted by User:Isuruwe (who prefers "Ayn al-Arab") at Ayn al-Arab and any undiscussed moves like those of User:Laser Perşikita (who prefers "Kobani") at Siege of Kobanê should be treated as controversial, however. The other two pages used "Kobanê" before this one was changed. The procedure for a group move request is shown on Wikipedia:Requested moves. (Cross-posting part of this at Talk:Siege of Kobanê.) Dekimasuよ! 00:11, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I have no stakes myself, this should really be understood implicitly. It's just about figuring out which is the most commonly used name in English. The pronunciation of ê isn't really an issue (as long as we don't give pronunciation guides), the question is just which spelling is the most commonly used. It's not really a terrible thing if some pages use Kobanê and others Kobani, as both variants is in use (and Wikipedia has tons of inconsistencies like that by the nature of the project). Of course we should ultimately aim at consistency if possible, but as it isn't an actual mistake (as in, Wikipedia hosting misinformation), it shouldn't be a top priority. (while getting rid of content forks, as you say, is very important indeed). --dab (𒁳) 07:19, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

If you can change Syrian city name i will change japan names don't fight with me — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isuruwe (talk • contribs) 16:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

This is an Internet site or what ever, you should follow international laws, if Americans don't like to change their country name to ISIS, Syrian government don't like to use other names which they didn't give, understand what I'm telling or Wikipedia will go to international courts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isuruwe (talk • contribs) 16:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

you change it i change it again i will newer stop what i can do in support for Syrian government — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isuruwe (talk • contribs) 17:41, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

THE PEOPLE OF KOBANI LOST EVERYTHING. DON’T CONTRIBUTE TO THEM LOSING THE NAME OF THEIR TOWN!

Latest comment: 10 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

KOBANI: The Name and the Origin

I was born in the district of Kobani in 1946 and it was here where I grew up and where I attended school in the early years of my life, Kobani, a Kurdish town in Northern Syria, cannot be found in Ottoman archives. The town came to existence after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. It started as a station for the German engineers and the workers who were involved in the building of the railway line “Baghdad-Berlin” in the latter years of the Ottoman Empire. As the location was on a creek and near the railway station on the Turkish side, the French later used it as a settlement for their officers and the local militia, utilising Armenian and Kurdish experts/workers to run restaurants, teahouses and bars. The location even had a bordello, as my father and people of his generation told us. The French referred to the little settlement as “Company.” Later the Kurds called the place “Kobani” (derived from “Company”).

When Syria gained independence in 1946, the Syrian authorities called it “Ain-ul-Arab.” This name that translates into “Arab Spring” or “Arab Creek” comes from the Ottoman name “Arabpinar.” This was the name of the village east of Kobani, now a part of Kobani itself. The Kurdish name is “Kaniya Ereban” that again translates into “Arab Spring.” According to what we heard from the generation of our parents it was called “Arab Spring” because the Bedouins used to bring their sheep in summer to graze in the nearby locations and the spring (now dry) was the source of the water they needed for their sheep. This practice actually continued until the turmoil started in Syria about four years ago. The Bedouins who came from the south used to purchase the fields from Kurdish farmers after harvest to graze their sheep on them. It is unfortunate that some reports are full of misinformation about what is going on in Kobani. One mistake is the misspelt name of Kobani that appears as “Kobane” in some reports. Once such mistakes become widespread it becomes harder to correct. Therefore PLEASE spell the name correctly: Kobani.

Many thanks,

Chahin Baker, Kurdish Australian educator/writer/journalist (Shahîn B. Soreklî) 15/10/2014

This message taken from personal account of Shahîn B. Sorekli.--Laser Perşikita (talk) 09:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I have to second this, the "dispute" was about the Arabic vs. Kurdish name, but now we settled for the Kurdish name, we might as well spell it correctly. Especially if it is also more common. Google estimates 23M hits for "Kobane" but 45M hits for "Kobani". So I would suggest a move to Kobani. The move to "Kobanê" was based on WP:COMMONNAME, so there is really hardly any point in not moving it to the more correct name that is also even more common. --dab (𒁳) 19:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I alsp am fine with Kobani. I am not fine with the constant deletions and replacements of Kobane to the Arab name that almost no one uses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.78.41.231 (talk) 21:23, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2014

Latest comment: 10 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Chahin Baker (talk) 04:17, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your comment. Wikipedia is actually written by volunteers who are not necessarily either academics or politicians. To do so, we follow various policies and guidelines that have evolved over the years. It's not actually Wikipedia's job to correct a well-established but erroneous usage.* Your testimony is extremely interesting and important, but what would actually be more persuasive is evidence that Kobani (or Kobanî) is in wider use in English than Kobane (or Kobanê). Q·L·1968 ☿ 03:04, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

* For instance, I consider it wrong and misleading to contrast the "Roman Republic" with the "Roman Empire", given that the Roman state was always styled a res publica (both before and after 27 BCE), and that res publica and its representatives always exercised imperium. I don't try to fight this fight on Wikipedia, however, because English usage is almost unanimous in making this false and anachronistic distinction.

This source ([10]) seems to support much of what Chahin is saying. I've incorporated some of it into the article. --Al Ameer (talk) 02:18, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2014

Latest comment: 10 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I am from KOBANI and the word KOBANE with an E is wrong, IT IS KOBANI. 203.15.103.1 (talk) 03:51, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

For your information, there are two Kurdish dialects in use, Kobanê and Kobanî, and these are the only correct spellings! In English is it in both cases pronounced like "Banshee", isn't it easy enough for the rest of the world!? To avoid inconsistencies, we should agree on the most common spelling Kobanê. In an encyclopaedia, the practical solutions should always be preferred instead of political solutions, for this reason the world press can not serve as a benchmark here. --91.115.76.227 (talk) 10:08, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 2

Latest comment: 10 years ago16 comments10 people in discussion

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the pages to Kobanî, Siege of Kobanî, and Kobanî Canton, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 00:44, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

– Since the last RM discussion - which was a debate between Ayn al-Arab vs Kobani (but closed and moved to Kobane)- we have seen a shift in the RS to the more correct Kurdish name of Kobabi over Kobane. I do not believe this should be controversial as the editors in the last discussion were also supportive of Kobani. In fact it could be argued the closer used the wrong name following my suggestion. Legacypac (talk) 02:19, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Support all 3 Seems to be the correct Kurdish name. Was expecting to find other uses of Kobani in Google Books but apart from Edward Kobani few. (Note to closing admin to check for socks and new accounts this time also) In ictu oculi (talk) 02:47, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I believe that this small city was rarely mentioned in English before becoming the nexus of the ISIL conflict. Initially English media were using Kobane (some still do) but we have had multiple Kurdish speakers post here and elsewhere that Kobani is correct, and the English speaking media has shifted toward Kobani hence the move request. Thanks for adding Kobanê Canton In ictu oculi Legacypac (talk) 02:56, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Legacypac, I realise, which is why I'm supporting. FWIW that University of Chicago IP edit prior to my Support wasn't me - but whoever added it it was a good catch and I support that as well. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:01, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Support per WP:UCN, WP:UE, the choice of "Kobanê" did not make sense last time, as the sources used "Kobani". -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:16, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Suport all Since the Kurdish name was chosen over "Ayn al-Arab" because it is more common in the recent reports, so should be "Kobani" chosen over "Kobane" because it has about twice as much Google results. Feon {^t/_c} 06:31, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Support Some recent news sources have favoured Korbane but the overwhelming support is for Korbani. Korbane may even be an ISIL presentation. Gregkaye ✍♪ 14:23, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
prefer Kobanî as per Q·L· below. This is the rendering as used in the Kurdish parallel article. Gregkaye ✍♪ 05:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
- Well, I don't think anyone's calling it "Korbane" or "Korbani". And no, "Kobanê" is decidedly not an IS presentation—no idea how you would even arrive at such a bizarre conclusion. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Qualified support: We still ought to use the circumflex (i.e. Kobanî, Siege of Kobanî and Kobanî Canton). Many English publications (such as the BBC) are sloppy about diacritics, but that's not to say that they shouldn't be used where they belong (as in São Paulo or Düsseldorf). Q·L·1968 ☿ 21:24, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
AFAIK the ê transcription is correct, and the problem is between people who just drop the diacritic and write "Kobane" and people who try to approximate pronunciation by writing "Kobani." î makes yet another sound... is that wrong? 128.135.203.52 (talk) 02:20, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
My understanding is that all four graphemes correspond to different sounds: ⟨ê⟩ to /e/ (approximately like English ay), ⟨e⟩ to /ɛ/ (approximately like English short a or e), ⟨i⟩ to /ɪ̈/ (approximately like English short i), and ⟨î⟩ to /iː/ (approximately like English ee); cf. Kurdish alphabets. However, Kurmanji literacy in the Latin alphabet is probably quite low in Syria, and English writers are often cavalier about diacritics, so we can't expect all of our sources to be attentive to these niceties. Q·L·1968 ☿ 17:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Qualified support: I'm very happy to see this request. "Kobanê" did not make any sense and it is grammatically incorrect word for ezafe constraction. When it is used in Kurdish languages it make problems. Recenty, a lot of authors from Kobanî have criticised Kurdish media and some of leading world media for using incorrect Kobanê. We corrected it in Kurdish Wikipedia, too. That's why we should correct all of them like this:(Kobanî, Siege of Kobanî and Canton of Kobanî).
prefer Kobanî. The original name of the city. As it is used in Kurdish and some other languages, such as Cegerxwîn, Emînê Evdal etc. Finally, thanks to all of the supporters--Laser Perşikita (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Comment. The Kurdish Wikipedia has "Kobanî yan jî Kobanê" with a cite, implying that either spelling is possible. The direction this discussion is heading is clear, but is there any reason both titles shouldn't be mentioned as the foreign language versions following the English title? Dekimasuよ! 20:03, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Agreed we should put Kobane in the text as an alternative spelling, as it continues to be widely used in the English language media. Legacypac (talk) 21:16, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Self-Parody

Latest comment: 9 years ago11 comments8 people in discussion

City is officially called Ain al-Arab, CIA names it as Ain al-Arab... but a bunch of lobbyist, biased media reporters and other paid propagandists have successfully named it Kobane. I'm not here to continue your shitstorm. I think, this article is a terrific example about everything wrong with Wikipedia and should be mentioned on Criticism of Wikipedia. -- 188.22.168.49 (talk) 21:21, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

You are 100% correct. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:35, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

[11] ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:03, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Fortunately, Wikipedia is not run by the CIA or the Syrian government. Q·L·1968 ☿ 15:36, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Correct, but it IS heavily influenced by vested interests. Of those two entities you mention, which has the most resources and organizational capabilities and the most control over the production of sources that are required to be cited in articles? Self-parody is an good characterization of the place name discussion. First we have had the dismissal of the official name, which is also the historical name, under the WP:COMMONNAME argument that it is not the most widespread name used in media sources (though this is a policy on Wikipedia that is broken as often as it is held to). That discussion was at least credible, but now we have arguments over whether to use an "e", an "i", an "ê", or an "î" - and have decided to use the one that the fewest of those media sources use. Not to mention the fact that nobody would search for this article using an "ê", or an "î", and this is the English-language Wikipedia article, not a Kurdish-language one rendered in an unofficial alphabet fraught with problems of dialect. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:47, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Because of its high profile, Wikipedia undoubtedly draws the attention of many vested interests, but it's still an independent, volunteer-run project. As for which letter, e or i, "Kobani" seems to have overtaken "Kobane" in frequency in English media (besides being, as many Kurdish speakers have been insisting, correct). We should use the circumflex because, well, it belongs there, just as the tilde belongs on the a in Guimarães or São Vicente. I'd have more sympathy with your argument about Kurdish orthography if we were talking about the Sorani-speaking areas of Iraqi Kurdistan, but Kurmanji (the dialect used by most Kurds in Syria) has been written in the Latin alphabet for decades. Its orthographic conventions are reasonably well worked out. Finally, depending on your search engine and language settings, you might get exactly the same results for "Kobanî" as for "Kobani" anyway; more importantly, we've got a redirect (numerous redirects in fact), so this article is very findable. Q·L·1968 ☿ 22:04, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The name Kobani is over 100 years old. Legacypac (talk) 06:34, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

ah yes, I am sure the CIA has an entire department dedicated to enforcung the use of diacritics in Wikipedia article titles. I am sure that theory is much more likely than that the "agenda" in question is that of random wankers on the internet. Talk about self-parody indeed. --dab (𒁳) 12:00, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

fwiiw, I would express slight preference of Kobani over Kobanî as the title. But come-on, this is a minor detail. Kobani is what has actually become more or less standard usage in media reports. Kobanî is the correct ortography in "Hawar" mode and not something that English-language sources will often bother to imitate. --dab (𒁳) 12:23, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Legacy, I don't think the town even existed back then. If a village did, then it's definitely with the original name "Arap pinar" (Spring of the Arabs). Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

it was all in the article, but I had to restore it because of "article deterioration" (random people blanking referenced content). Arab Pinar was the name of an area of about 170 villages. The railway station was built beginning in 1911/2. Apparently, the station was known as kobani "company" by local workers. There was no settlement at that point. It seems that a village next to the station was first built up from 1915, by Armenians fleeing Ottoman persecution. The Ottomans replaced Arab Pinar by Mürşitpınar to make the name sound less "Arab". After the border was drawn in 1922/23, the Turkish bit north of the border remained known as Mürşitpınar, while the village south of the border was apparently just known as either Kobani or Arab Pinar, we don't have decent sources for the period 1930s to 1970s. Then in the 1980s, Syrian authorities replaced the name Arab Pinar by Ayn al-Arab to make the name sound more Arab and less Turkish (exactly mirroring the renaming under the Ottomans which was suppsed to make the name sound more Turkish and less Arab). During the 1980s to 2000s, the official name was Ain al-Arab. Since 2012, the territory is de-facto under autonomous Kurdish administration, but of course since last September it is basically just a battlefield, so claims of which name is "official" will have to wait until the smoke clears. --dab (𒁳) 14:31, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Name

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

People need to quit changing the name. The world knows it as Kobani, not "Ayn al-Arab". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1Trevorr (talk • contribs) 16:54, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

City founded by Ottoman. So, why kurdish city?

The city of Kobani was not founded by the Ottomans. The name of this town in northern Syria, 150 kilometres north east of the city of Aleppo and 35 kilometres east of the point where the Euphrates enters Syria is Kobani, not "Kobanê" or "Kobane." The town can not be found in the archives of the Ottoman Empire as it did not exist until the years that followed the fall of the Ottoman Empire. While the village of Murshidpinar ("Kaniya Murshid" in Kurdish) and Arabpinar ("Kaniya Ereban" in Kurdish) can be found in the archives preceding the fall of the Ottoman Empire, "Kobani" (or Kobane) can not. It is possible the German engineers who helped build Baghdad-Berlin railway may have used the spot between Murshidpinar and Arabpinar, that had a creek passing through, as station for the workers, it was the French who had the mandate over Syria until 1946 who built the little town. It first started as a camp for French soldiers. Then the French used Armenians who crossed over from Turkey escaping the oppression to open shops, cafes and restaurants with the help of the local Kurds. The name of the town comes from the name used by the French: Company. The Kurds later pronounced it as Kobani. The Arabic name "Ain-ul-Arab" is the translation of the name "Arabpinar" as was in the Ottoman archives. Both "Arabpinar" and the Kurdish name "Kaniya Ereban" as well as the Arabic name "Ain-ul-Arab" mean "The Arab Spring." According to the generation of my father it was called so because in the older times Arab beduins used to bring their herds in summer to this spot to drink. This practice of Arab beduins bringing their herds to the Kurdish region in summer continued until the seventies. They used to buy the wheat fields from their Kurdish owners after harvest to graze their sheep. The name "Kobane" started when someone mistakingly wrote "Welcome to Kobani" in Kurdish at the beginning of the Syrian uprising. It was written as "… Kobanê" instead of "… Kobaniyê" as the grammatical rule in Kurmanji Kurdish requires. It should have simply been written as "Kobanî" as the people of the town and the surrounding villages always used this name. It has to be added that Kurdish was not taught in Syria and the people of the region used the Arabic name and the Arabic alphabet when writing the name of the town. When they used the Arabic alphabet to write the Kurdish name"Kobanî" the letter "î" was/is used, not "ê" that does not even exist in Arabic. Therefore the name historically, logically and according to the people of the region where I was born and where I grew up is "Kobani." "Kobanê" or "Kobane" is simply a result of a mistake: Chahin Baker.

June 2015 Kobani attack

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

June 2015 Kobani attack

Created this. Big attack, scores dead, lots of coverage. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 00:53, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

June 2015 attacks

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Thanks to the person who put in the mention of the recent attackw in Kobani. However, why the hell is there no full length artifle about it? This is one of the worst civilian targeting attacks of the Syrian civil war so far, and massacres such as Adra have recieved their own articles. There is no justification for this oversight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.136.85.176 (talk) 05:02, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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External links modified

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Lock from editing

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This page maybe should be locked/protected from editing, due to the dispite over the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.217.29.10 (talk) 03:26, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 19 December 2019

Latest comment: 4 years ago12 comments12 people in discussion

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Closing a day early. Stop flooding these discussions, single purpose accounts. It's not a vote and it's just not going to work. El_C 17:47, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Kobanî → Ayn al-Arab – per Wikipedia:COMMONNAME (see also Ayn al-Arab District and Ayn al-Arab Subdistrict Futebul (talk) 09:11, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose This is the English Wikipedia, and in English it is very well known as Kobanî. I wouldn't look for Ayn :Al Arab. Don't remember ever having read of it in English newspapers. But this is just my experience. We also :don't have the article Deutschland because it is called Deutschland in German. (From Wikipedia:COMMONNAME) :We use the most recognizable name which is Germany. And for Ayn al Arab I guess it is Kobanî. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 11:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC) — Paradise Chronicle (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Lean Anael (talk • contribs).
Procedural note. I have reunited the talk archive with the article after it was lost through the series of undiscussed moves. The current title was established through a previous discussion at Talk:Kobanî/Archive 1#Requested move 2. Dekimasuよ! 12:37, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Oppose Kobanî is more commonly used for the settlement per Google Search. --Semsurî (talk) 14:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Support Ayn al-Arab is the official name of the city. 94.212.56.71 (talk) 16:22, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Oppose per COMMONNAME, Kobani is used far more frequently in English coverage. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 05:36, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Oppose. Common name in English-language sources (most common as "Kobani" unaccented). (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 03:05, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
Support per nom. Neutrale Person (talk) 13:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Support per official name. 94.204.190.77 (talk) 17:52, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Support per above. Portbase (talk) 11:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
Strongly Support according to Google Maps and Open Street Map. The name of the town is Ayn al-Arab.[12] 84.248.175.165 (talk) 16:27, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.