Talk:Kolyma

Back to normal

Pleased to see this morning that the article has regained its normal status with the removal of the NPOV and need-for-references notices. Now we can get on with more constructive content building. For the time being, I think ==Kolyma== can continue to cover the river, region and Gulag history - unless anyone thinks otherwise.--Ipigott 08:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV status

I came to this page with no preconceived ideas. I saw the NPOV notice at the top and also the requirement for footnotes. I therefore decided to investigate the claims made and also look for counter arguments and evidence of a possible alternative interpretation. On this basis, I have undertaken a comprehensive edit of this article, in the light of other related articles, e.g. Gulag, other language pages, and links. In this connection, I have posted messages on the pages of Guinness man and of others involved in the hope that there would be some kind of reaction. I have also sent emails to some outside experts on the matter. Unfortunately, the only other contribution to the Kolyma page I am aware of has been a minor spelling change by Chris the speller. I have also followed up on the claim that there are no authentic references. I believe I have now provided all that can reasonably be expected - and certainly more than you can find on other pages relating to prison camps. Perhaps someone can tell me how I can have this page officially reviewed or how the warnings about neutrality and refernces at the top of the article can be removed. Ther may be a procedure that is not listed in the guidance. If I have no response on this within 24 hours, I will follow the guidance I have found and create new pages as follows:

• A page on the Kolyma river (similar to those in most of the other language versions. (This will probably be the Kolyma (River) page.)
• A page on the Kolyma region (today's economy, industries, climate, relations with Alaska, future potential.
• A page on the Kolyma Gulag (with more or less the same philosophy as the Polish page on this but with much more detail and references.

This may not be the optimal solution as there is also a notice on the Kolyma page that it is part of the Russian history project! I would like to point out that in Europe the Kolyma issue has reached a high level of attention and importance. The former Danish foreign minister, Mogens Lykketoft, - who has had years of experience with Russian policy - is about to launch a cross-party initiative to support the creation of a documentation centre/archive on Kolyma and the Soviet forced labour prison camps. When people go to our English-language Kolyma site and see the notice on lack of neutrality, it makes a very weak case for the reliabilty of Wikipedia. I hope there will be some reactions to this today or tomorrow. --Ipigott 00:06, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

sorry is the map isn't managed properly (could be shared with french wiki ?), I'm quite novice with wikimages --Chouchoupette 22:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

The article in its current form does not have a single specific reference to back up some pretty harsh claims and accusations. It is full of non-encyclopedic language ("slave labor", "mercilessly terrorized", "particularly sadistic"), and is mostly written from a dissident's point of view. Guinness man 13:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You seem to equate being dissident to being a liar or traitor. People brought to Kolyma were often not even dissidents, but loyal citizens and even committed communists deported because of Stalin's tyranny, paranoia, and need for slave labor. That's the naked truth history has revealed to those who have heart to accept it. I can understand some terms could be moderated, but millions perished there in twenty years of cold hell. What way should this article be written, from the viewpoint of a guard dog, maybe? Basil II 23:07, 30 October 2006 (CET)

And you seem to be putting words in my mouth. I don't equate dissidents with anything. If you think that Wikipedia must reflect only dissidents' and guard dogs' viewpoints, maybe you should stay away from editing. "Millions perishing" is a very trivial lie, even the current article cites lower actual numbers. Guinness man 23:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

In the interest of accuracy, this being an encyclopeida and all, there need to be 2 Kolyma pages (and a disambiguation page to differentiate). One page is this, which does of course need to be fixed in the aforementioned ways (and I am very new and not the one to do it); the other would be about Kolyma as a region, its cultures, et cetera. Certainly in common usage the word "Kolyma" usually refers to the area's gulag system, but first and foremost, the word refers to a geographical area. Akulina

Correct, support Dysmorodrepanis 01:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

"Russian dissident historian Roy Medvedev has aptly compared the Kolyma camps to Auschwitz." - I have outcommented "aptly" as the Kolyma camps may rival Auschwitz in death toll, cruelty of staff, conditions etc, BUT prisoners were all but limited to able-bodied adults and at least had a token chance to get out again alive, whereas A. was built for killing of people first and for economical gains almost as an afterthought. Dysmorodrepanis 01:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I cannot believe the OP of this section questions the brutality of the Kolyma camps or of the harshness of the region. Before making such crass misjudgements, may I suggest some basic research into the GULAG aspect of this region and its central role in developing the area (Magadan in particular).

Three excellent books on the subject by people who were there:

"Man is Wolf to Man" by Janusz Bardach

"Withing the Whirlwind" by Eugenia Ginzburg

"Kolyma Tales" by Varlam Shalamov

You will find that terms such as "slave labor", "mercilessly terrorized", "particularly sadistic" are indeed factual when applied to events in Kolyma and therefore, in this context, are indeed encyclopedic. And you don't have to be a "dissident" to see evil in the Soviet camp system.

[New remarks start here]

I am the article's author. There are SIX different sources listed at the end of the article. Therefore, I fail to understand the "no references tag" that has been put on the piece. The article is a severe condensation of my Masters Thesis on Kolyma. If the person objecting to the "lack of references" would prefer, I will upload the entire 100+ pages of the thesis, references and all. I am prepared to back up EVERY SINGLE FACT that I have laid out in the article. I hasten to add that I know as much about Kolyma as any person in the Wikipedia system, with the exception of someone who was a prisoner there. Yosef 52 05:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

If you are looking for any credibility, then perhaps you should refrain from using a very loud word "factual" when it comes to works of "literary investigation", as Solzhenitsyn himself referred to his book. Although eyewitness accounts are certainly very important, they are definitely not the only and by far not the most objective source of information. If you record testimony of 227 inmates of, oh, say, Abu Ghraib or Guantánamo Bay, they will certainly tell you that those places are hell on Earth, the most mercilessly terrorized, particularly sadistic and the most unimaginably cruel human-run organizations, and the whole US concentration camp system is "evil", as, they would probably claim, are the US themselves. Would you write an encyclopedia article that entirely consists of these "facts"? Guinness man 23:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

References and authenticity

I tend to agree with the author on the authenticity of his account. What might perhaps be useful are specific references from original documents rather than books which give an overall account of events. The problem is that many of them will no doubt be in Russian (or even German or Korean) and will require translation. I do believe, however, that this would be a worthwhile enterprise. You may be interested to know that there was a feature on Kolyma in Denmark's respected newspaper Weekend Avisen - www.weekendavisen.dk entitled Det hvide krematorium written by Jesper Vind-Jensen. He provides additional references including the 1995 Russian documentary film Kolyma and accounts by author Jens Alstrup of his cycle trip to Kolyma in 1997 when he spoke to some of the former prisoners. I'll try to bring some of this into the article in the next few days.Ipigott 11:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Great Job, Ipigott! Fantastic work. I am indebted to you for your very careful and scholarly additions and editing.Yosef 52 19:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Confused extermination camps with concentration camps

I would like to point that the author confused concentration camps equivalent of GULAG with extermination camps (like Sobibor. Kolyma with mortality rate above 20% yearly was somwhere between those 2 categories. Cautious 20:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

About the return of Theremin to the Soviet Union

The version given here about the causes of the return of Léon Theremin to the Soviet Union (kidnapped by Soviet agents) does not coincide with the version given in the article about Theremin (returning voluntarily, according to Theremin himself). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.18.219.19 (talk) 18:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

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POV

This article uses unknown and unsupported sources referencing revisinonist pro-Stalinist historians that no one has heard of without even citing the source or the background of these supposed scholars. Author tries to downgrade the genocide that occurred in this Far East region of USSR/Russia and places specific emphasis on the trivial hearsay that "3 Million deaths was now seen as too high a number" without being objective and using actual research. The author quotes some named Matthew White - there is no wikipedia article and very few information for a scholar named Matthew White http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_White. Author claims that White puts the number of victims in the Kolyma death camps at 500,000. Most scholarly research estimates the Stalin death toll at a conservative 20 million people throughout the slave labour system. Author emphasizes the death figures were grossly inflated to serve a political agenda, while maintaining a political agenda of his own. Author insinuates that the death count was inflated by the CIA for propaganda purposes, exposing personal bias which perversely makes the article sound like "well, it was only half a million who were worked and starved to death, not three."

A disgraceful entry which needs to be cleaned up.

Academic research puts the number of deaths due to GULAG at 1,500,000 though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goti1233 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

The geographic coordinates for Kolyma on this entry appear to be way off. Jclingerman (talk) 18:36, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Awkward Paragraph that Needs Revision

"Many of the prisoners in Kolyma were academics or intellectuals. Among them was Mikhail Kravchuk (Krawtschuk), a Ukrainian mathematician who by the early 1930s had received considerable acclaim in the West. After a summary trial, apparently for not being willing to take part in the accusations of some of his colleagues, he was sent to Kolyma where he died in 1942. Hard work in the Soviet labor camp, harsh climate and meager food, poor health, and last but not least, accusations and abandonment by most of his colleagues, took their toll. Kravchuk perished in Magadan in Eastern Siberia, about 4,000 miles (6,000 km) from the place where he was born. Kravchuk's last article had appeared soon after his arrest in 1938. However, after this publication, Kravchuk's name was stricken from books and journals.[7]"

I feel like this paragraph is awkward and is placing too much emphasis on one man's imprisonment. I'm also not sure about the importance of how far away he was from his place of birth when he died. It almost sounds like parts of this section were copy and pasted from other articles. I would revise this but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to make serious edits to this article.A Big Teletubby (talk) 17:52, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

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Poles

Thousands of Polish people were deported to Kolyma during the Second World War and died there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.88.197 (talk) 00:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Infobox Flag and Seal

I saw that the infobox of the article, which is about the region of Kolyma, had the flag of the USSR and the Gulag logo on it to represent the region. I removed it seeing as the infobox was not about the Gulags, but the user who added it has reverted that removal. I do not seek to engage in an edit war, and so I would like to raise this issue here for others' input. What should be done? Infrish 2 (talk) 15:44, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

the infobox isn't specifically for Gulags but it is meant for any location, I wanted to add the USSR flag since there isn't a flag for Kolyma, perhaps you can remove it if you want. I think the Gulag logo is appropriate for the infobox since of course Kolyma was in the Gulag system and the Gulag logo represented it. Andro Keshelashvili (talk) 18:41, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it'd be appropriate to remove all the Gulag information on the infobox as it represents the present-day region of Kolyma that the article is for. The Gulag no longer exists and so it wouldn't fit on the infobox. Infrish 2 (talk) 18:52, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I'll remove the Gulag logo from the infobox and add it just as an image, I can also change the location to "region" rather than Gulag.

Also I think there should be a separate article for the Kolyma Gulag because there is a difference between the region and the Gulag camp itself. Andro Keshelashvili (talk) 19:44, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll also remove "Kolyma Gulag, Колымский ГУЛАГ" as well which you may have missed. Infrish 2 (talk) 07:47, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Best for it to be removed. Mellk (talk) 21:26, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to split the Kolyma Gulag to it's own article

There is a difference between the region of Kolyma and the Kolyma Gulag, I propose that a new article is made for the Kolyma Gulag. This article has a lot of good information about the gulag itself but it is mixed with the information about the Kolyma region, geography, pre-history/history etc. I think making a new article for the Gulag would make this whole thing much more organized and informative. Andro Keshelashvili (talk) 22:16, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose There was no such thing as "Kolyma Gulag". What hits google gives is a result of sloppiness of the respetive authors. Gulag labor camps were managed by Sevvostlag directorate and the Directorate of Dalstroy Corrective Labor Camps (Управлениe исправительно-трудовых лагерей «Дальстроя».). At the same time you are right. All three articles are a mess. They must be rehashed according to WP:Summary style. - Altenmann >talk 03:08, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Even if there was no "Kolyma Gulag" it was a region of several gulags that had specific names but were in the Kolyma region. There is still a huge difference between a region of gulags and a physical region of east Siberia. TheTankman (talk) 08:20, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Correct. Did you read my reply? We already have (very poor) articles about who managed these gulags. Most of the content of Kolyma must be moved there (to expand them, as a minimum), leaving here only summary/chronology, per WP:Summary style. - Altenmann >talk 16:06, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Exactly what I was thinking of. But isn't there some information that could help in organizing this thing, any books, sites? TheTankman (talk) 16:15, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

After some thinking: Kolyma is defined as a separate region because of the discovery of gold and other goodies, whose mining was based almost exclusively by gulag. And this is how the backbone of the article must be: history of geologic discovery. History of gulag camps as a tool for mining is secondary to this. IMO the ruwiki has proper layout, in terms of the table of contents (but unfortunately it is thoroughly unreferenced). While enwiki TOC is history of gulag camps, leaving an impression that sole reaso of Kolyma was these camps. This reflects the basic Western layman's misunderstanding of Gulag: as a system of cruel punishment. Whereas it was the system of well-organized economic exploitation of involuntary labor for the development of the country in places where no one wanted to live on their own will. - Altenmann >talk 17:46, 17 August 2023 (UTC)