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Are there any Greek speaking Muslim Chams (all of them 99.9 % indogenius Muslim Chams) ? The infobox states that the languages of this community are Albanian and Greek. The German WP states that the majority of the inhabitants speak Greek. Neither the German nor the English WP gives any references... Fransvannes 09:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC) And what about the Vlachs?
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Alternative name of the municipality
editI really can't understand why so much obsession to remove the alternative name when the lead mentions the name of municipality for the first time. In fact Esslet's initiative [[1]] is of merit since we have a typical case of a municipality/administrative region that consists of multiple ethnic groups.Alexikoua (talk) 17:57, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
- That edit is ok. This edit is not [2] and is POV pushing. Greeks do not inhabit the town of Konispol, and that is per Greek scholarship based on academic fieldwork and research.Resnjari (talk) 11:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
- Greeks inhabit part of the current municipality thus per same research I can't see issues to include the Greek name when the municipality is mentioned for the first time.Alexikoua (talk) 12:12, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
- I never said anything about the municipal name should not be there. Take it up with others who did. No Greek name for the Konispol town name, no Greeks there, only Muslim Albanian Chams.Resnjari (talk) 12:20, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
- Since there is an issue about the municipal name [[3]] this has to be addressed. Thanks to Esslet's insistence this appears to be fixed (although there was an attempt to revert him). Kosnipol municipality is a region inhabited by various ethnic groups: Greeks, Albanians etc., and therefore alternative names should be mentioned in this article.Alexikoua (talk) 14:47, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
- Its not about insistence, but being precise and no POV pushing. Anyway a demographics section will be needed for this article to avoid any issues. There is Kallevretakis, and i have Kretsi too. Greeks are a very small minority in this municipality.Resnjari (talk) 08:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- Kallivretakis also mentions that the P.R. of Albanian installed Muslim Cham settlers in the region to create a buffer zone between the Greek border and the Greek speaking area.Alexikoua (talk) 08:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- Does that relate to these settlements though? In case you missed it, he does distinguish between local indigenous Muslim Albanian Chams and the ones that were expelled from Greece. None of those were resettled in these villages. Read the whole article before jumping the gun.Resnjari (talk) 09:10, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- The number of local Muslim Albanians was reinforced by Muslim Albanian settlers and that's stated in Kallivretakis. Also the statement "Greeks live in a few settlements" is misleading, Greeks live in 5 out of 12 settlements. Also by doing the math -whenever possible- Greeks are not necessary fewer than Aromanians. By the way the later inhabit only 3 villages per same author.Alexikoua (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- Doing the math, that is a few, Greeks live in a few settlements -in most their numbers are very low (as pointed out by Kallivretakis) apart from Vrine. Also on "settlers" which page and does it cite the villages related to this municipality (considering Kallivretakis distinguishes between indigenous Albanian Chams (ΤΣ Τσάμηδες) and those which were expelled from Greece (ΤΣΘ Τσάμηδες από τη Θεσπρωτία)? So far all exclusively inhabited Muslim Cham Albanian villages relating to this municipality were marked as local, rooted in Albania. Remember no OR.Resnjari (talk) 20:40, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- Greek language name for the municipality is helpful to no one, and as the municipal unit is from 2015 and isn't even the subject of the page, it seems pretty silly to interrupt the prose with Greek language versions. I even have doubt that the Albanian version is necessary but at least this is useful for copy-paste searching in Albanian language gov't docs for non-Albanian users if they'd ever want to, I guess. I left a much more detailed message on the reverting user's talk page. If it matters, sure I think you can add Greek for places in Xarre commune where Greek's live, but this page is about the city of Konispol.--Yalens (talk) 21:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
- Unfortunately the article is about both the town and the municipality & alternative names should be added when the name of the municipality is mentioned.21:50, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
- Is eparxia actually a valid alternative name for the municipality? Does it use this name anywhere? --Yalens (talk) 21:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
- Hadn't crossed my mind about that, though is it another name for the new municipality ?Resnjari (talk) 09:42, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Correct term is "Δήμος"/Dimos, "eparhia" is for province.Alexikoua (talk) 16:03, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Exactly as I feared. Without evidence that either are a correct usage for the municipality, I doubt we can use it. It's not our job to decide what terms should be. --Yalens (talk) 04:07, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
- Correct term is "Δήμος"/Dimos, "eparhia" is for province.Alexikoua (talk) 16:03, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Hadn't crossed my mind about that, though is it another name for the new municipality ?Resnjari (talk) 09:42, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
- Is eparxia actually a valid alternative name for the municipality? Does it use this name anywhere? --Yalens (talk) 21:55, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
- Unfortunately the article is about both the town and the municipality & alternative names should be added when the name of the municipality is mentioned.21:50, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
- Greek language name for the municipality is helpful to no one, and as the municipal unit is from 2015 and isn't even the subject of the page, it seems pretty silly to interrupt the prose with Greek language versions. I even have doubt that the Albanian version is necessary but at least this is useful for copy-paste searching in Albanian language gov't docs for non-Albanian users if they'd ever want to, I guess. I left a much more detailed message on the reverting user's talk page. If it matters, sure I think you can add Greek for places in Xarre commune where Greek's live, but this page is about the city of Konispol.--Yalens (talk) 21:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
- Doing the math, that is a few, Greeks live in a few settlements -in most their numbers are very low (as pointed out by Kallivretakis) apart from Vrine. Also on "settlers" which page and does it cite the villages related to this municipality (considering Kallivretakis distinguishes between indigenous Albanian Chams (ΤΣ Τσάμηδες) and those which were expelled from Greece (ΤΣΘ Τσάμηδες από τη Θεσπρωτία)? So far all exclusively inhabited Muslim Cham Albanian villages relating to this municipality were marked as local, rooted in Albania. Remember no OR.Resnjari (talk) 20:40, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- The number of local Muslim Albanians was reinforced by Muslim Albanian settlers and that's stated in Kallivretakis. Also the statement "Greeks live in a few settlements" is misleading, Greeks live in 5 out of 12 settlements. Also by doing the math -whenever possible- Greeks are not necessary fewer than Aromanians. By the way the later inhabit only 3 villages per same author.Alexikoua (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- Does that relate to these settlements though? In case you missed it, he does distinguish between local indigenous Muslim Albanian Chams and the ones that were expelled from Greece. None of those were resettled in these villages. Read the whole article before jumping the gun.Resnjari (talk) 09:10, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- Kallivretakis also mentions that the P.R. of Albanian installed Muslim Cham settlers in the region to create a buffer zone between the Greek border and the Greek speaking area.Alexikoua (talk) 08:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- Its not about insistence, but being precise and no POV pushing. Anyway a demographics section will be needed for this article to avoid any issues. There is Kallevretakis, and i have Kretsi too. Greeks are a very small minority in this municipality.Resnjari (talk) 08:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
- Since there is an issue about the municipal name [[3]] this has to be addressed. Thanks to Esslet's insistence this appears to be fixed (although there was an attempt to revert him). Kosnipol municipality is a region inhabited by various ethnic groups: Greeks, Albanians etc., and therefore alternative names should be mentioned in this article.Alexikoua (talk) 14:47, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
- I never said anything about the municipal name should not be there. Take it up with others who did. No Greek name for the Konispol town name, no Greeks there, only Muslim Albanian Chams.Resnjari (talk) 12:20, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
- Greeks inhabit part of the current municipality thus per same research I can't see issues to include the Greek name when the municipality is mentioned for the first time.Alexikoua (talk) 12:12, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
- That edit is ok. This edit is not [2] and is POV pushing. Greeks do not inhabit the town of Konispol, and that is per Greek scholarship based on academic fieldwork and research.Resnjari (talk) 11:40, 17 August 2017 (UTC)
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"Exclusively" Muslim
editResnjari While the MB whatever his name was acted like an immature dolt, there was a point to be had there. Just because one Greek researcher came and only found "Muslims" (read: descendants of people who were Muslim in Ottoman times but who may nowadays be Muslim, atheist or even Christian) does not mean that accurately describes the religious sentiment of every person present, especially in what is a pretty nice town near the beach that at least according to the (admittedly problematic) census now has people who identified as Catholics, Orthodox and atheists as well. Of course Kallivretakis has some very serious issues with atheist erasure---- Calthinus (talk) 22:21, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- Additionally while you may protest at this, given internal migration especially to areas along the Albanian Riviera as well as emigration, 1995 is not perfectly reliable for now, 23 years later.---- Calthinus (talk) 22:23, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- Calthinus, I respectfully disagree. You have to provide sources that show there has actually been migration to those specific places. Otherwise it is still conjecture on your part and the stable version should remain as it was. There is also nothing to indicate that Kallivretakis falsified data or that it is wrong. By adding and having it as "According to a 1995 survey by Kallivretakis et al," calls into question the factual accuracy of Kallivretakis via wp:weasel. It also makes the matter messy, as that section contains data by Hammond and Kretsi and all three don't contradict each other. Additionally having it as "predominantly" implies there are other ethnic groups etc in those villages and that somehow that is not stated in sources provided. The now banned editor made comments to Atheism. That is hard to quantify in Albania, yet alone for Konispol as data on it by a village by village basis is not available. Provided it exists, until or if it ever becomes available, then such additions can be made as long as they are sourced from credible sources. Additionally the Albanian Riviera does not encompass the Konispol area (see the article on it). The article should go back to the stable version [4] prior to the blocked editor stirring the pot.Resnjari (talk) 22:54, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well there is a syntactic ambiguity because it could mean (predominantly Muslim) Cham Albanians, predominantly (Muslim Cham Albanians) or even predominantly (Muslim Cham) Albanians. The fact that the municipality is overwhelmingly Albanian, well there's no reason to doubt that. If it has remained exclusively Muslim or exclusively Cham (as opposed to also having Albanians from other regions)... well who knows what happened with the census then. But then again the census is well... the census. Re the weasel, um, sure, srv-ed.---- Calthinus (talk) 23:29, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- Calthinus, but the thing is it does create doubt because Kallivretakis does not state this, nor do the other scholars cited regarding demographics and a reader not familiar with the area will infer that to be the case. Plus its still original research using the term predominantly. If its predominately then who are the others ? And a source would be need to account for that. There has been no scholarship presented to show that a different ethnic group has moved into the town Konispol or those villages that are identified as being Muslim and Albanian. Until that time the previous stable version ought to be reinstated. Also the issue is not about the municipality as a whole but only relates to those settlements. With regards to Chams in the area the Orthodox Albanian speaking population though speaking the Albanian Cham dialect in the municipality do not in a modern context identify as Chams, but only as Orthodox Albanians. Kallivretakis, like Kretsi correctly identified the term only with local Albanian speaking Muslims in the area. No one knows if or how many atheists there are within the municipality and until there is data available the best course of action is to restore the stable version.Resnjari (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- [The 2011 census, 7 years ago versus 23] (if it is to be trusted) disproves "exclusively" Muslim as there are Catholics there now -- 87% "Muslim", 1.5% "Cath", 2.7% "Orto", the rest assumedly unanswered (or Bekt, 0.2%). The difference from the current version [[5]] consists of a difference of one word-- exclusively versus predominantly. Kallivretakis is one of the most reliable sources we have (aside from atheist erasure which is, in Balkan fracas, less "sensitive"). But that doesn't mean we say things that aren't true just because they happened to be printed 23 years ago. Editorial oversight. ---- Calthinus (talk) 00:02, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- Calthinus, there may be an editorial oversight but there is also nothing out there in scholarship that says there has been a change as well in the Konispol area. The census ought to be taken with caution as in its larger context it was heavily contested and politicized. Though i don't dbout that there are people who are atheist in the area (not just Muslims but the Orthodox too) we would need something that relates directly to Konispol for the article and atheism. As you are familiar with these kinds of issues, Muslim has a range of connotations in Albania going from being believers/practitioners all the way to it being a cultural identity thing (and that can be within a family yet alone in a settlement). Anyway this is not the article for that kind of thing and a generalised discussion off that is already covered in the Islam in Albania article. I'm going to remove the word predominantly because that's not what the sources use and so far there is nothing provided in terms of scholarship to shows there has been changes to those specific villages.Resnjari (talk) 00:13, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Resnjari and Kalinthos: It is a small detail. I do not have information on the issue, and as a matter of fact I did not have this article on my watchlist before coming accross this discussion. I made a change that I think adresses concerns of both of you? Am I right? Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:42, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- We can't ignore the census when the only other source is very old and makes an absurd claim that Cham Albanians are 100% Muslim. While the census is problematic, claiming Chams are 100% Muslim is even more so. So I think it should be removed since it makes the article look less serious in the eyes of the readers. Vargmali (talk) 19:00, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- The sources is based on fieldwork. The census is contested, also if there is data on the municipality per se that can be added in addition to the current content. It should not be conflated as one and the same. Most people who identify with the Cham Albanian subgroup are of the Muslim faith (or a descendants of people of the Muslim faith). How one interprets Muslim in Albania is another matter due to all the changes from the communist area until now. Anyway that kind of thing has been covered in the main Islam in Albania article. Orthodox Albanians in the Konispol municipality area who speak the Cham dialect do not use the term Cham for themselves. The change for Orthodox Albanians on the Albanian side of the border who speak Camerisht and Orthodox Albanian speakers of the Cham dialect in today's Thesprotia, Greece occurred in the 19th and early 20th century when they dissociated themselves with the term Cham. Anthropologist Laurie Kain Hart in her article Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece, American Ethnologist Vol. 26, No. 1, 1999. [6] p.202 puts it this way: "The Tchamides {Tsamides, Cham in Albanian) were both Christian and Muslim by the late 18th century (in the 20th century, Cham applies to Muslims only)." Hugh Poulton, The Muslim experience in the Balkan states, 1919‐1991 Nationalities Papers Vol. 28, No. 1, 2000. [7] p. 58. says "The Muslim Chams in northern Greece remained a distinct group, however. Their faith prevented them from absorption in the Greek identity, to which Orthodoxy is central. Following the Second World War, they were expelled en masse from Greece and their mosques were destroyed." Historian Nicholas Hammond in his Epirus: the Geography, the Ancient Remains, the History and Topography of Epirus and Adjacent Areas (1967) [8] states of his observations of the 20th century interwar period that (p.31): "In fact the Liaps and Tsams claimed to be autonomous tribes, distinct and separate from the Gegs and Tosks. I found this to be true of the Liaps, but the Tsams seemed to have lost their cohesion as a tribe." The word Cham applies to Muslim Albanian speaking people of the area in the modern era. What links the local Orthodox Albanian speaking element to the Muslim one that they both speak the same Cham dialect. Musicologist Thansis Moraitis (of Arvanite descent) makes similar observation as well in the recent decades he spent doing fieldwork in the area [9]: "Η δεύτερη κατά σειρά ομάδα, μετά από αυτήν της νότιας Ελλάδας, σε πληθυσμό, είναι αυτή της Ηπείρου. Εκτείνεται στη δυτική Ήπειρο, κυρίως στην άλλοτε αποκαλούμενη και Τσαμουριά, που περιλαμβάνει το μεγαλύτερο μέρος του δυτικού τμήματος του νομού Θεσπρωτίας και το βόρειο μέρος του νομού Πρέβεζας. Οι Αρβανίτες αυτοί είναι σε εδαφική συνέχεια με την Αλβανία, με την παρεμβολή του ελληνόφωνου Βούρκου (Vurg) εντός της Αλβανίας, και η Αλβανική που μιλιέται εκεί ακόμα, η Τσάμικη, είναι η νοτιότερη υποδιάλεκτος του κεντρικού κορμού της Αλβανικής, αλλά έμεινε ουσιαστικά εκτός του εθνικού χώρου όπου κωδικοποιήθηκε η Αλβανική ως επίσημη γλώσσα του κράτους. Σ’ αυτή την περιοχή της Ηπείρου ζούσαν δίπλα στους χριστιανούς Αρβανίτες και μουσουλμάνοι (οι σήμερα λεγόμενοι Τσάμηδες), οι οποίοι εξεδιώχθησαν μαζικά και βίαια το 1944, μετά τη συνεργασία σημαντικού τμήματός τους με τις δυνάμεις κατοχής. Ο βαθιά ριζωμένος προεθνικός χωρισμός σε θρησκευτικές κοινότητες κατά την οθωμανική εποχή, παρ’ όλους τους δεσμούς συγγένειας γλώσσας και υλικού πολιτισμού, συντείνει ώστε οι ορθόδοξοι αρβανίτες να ενσωματωθούν ως Έλληνες εξ αρχής, ενώ οι μουσουλμάνοι θεωρήθηκαν, τουλάχιστον μετά το 1923 (έτος της ανταλλαγής των πληθυσμών), ξένο σώμα και οιονεί αλβανική μειονότητα. Είναι η μόνη ομάδα μουσουλμάνων των «Νέων Χωρών» της Ελλάδας που, αφού μπήκαν στην Ελλάδα το 1912-20 μαζί με τους μουσουλμάνους της δυτικής Θράκης, τελικά απέφυγαν την ανταλλαγή πληθυσμών. Οι αλβανόφωνοι χριστιανοί θεωρούν τους εαυτούς τους Έλληνες. Στα Ελληνικά αποκαλούν τη γλώσσα τους «Αρβανίτικα», όπως εξ άλλου όλοι οι Αρβανίτες της Ελλάδας, στα Αρβανίτικα όμως την ονομάζουν «Σκιπ»."Resnjari (talk) 21:11, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Resnjari, with the new administrative reform, Konispol municipality is just 52% Muslim now since the territory has been enlargened and and all other units have been removed. Also as you said mos Chams might be Muslim but not all of them. So at least it should be "Mostly Muslim Chams", even though the term is problematic along chams themselves. For example leader of the PDIU Cham issue party has often mentioned Orthodox Chams, so to many Chams this will appear divisive. Vargmali (talk) 23:11, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- The PDIU is not a scholarly source, but a political party. Also people in the Cham community that support them are Chams which are practicing Muslims, cultural Muslims or of Muslim heritage (atheists etc). The specific sentence about Chams and Muslims relates to the town and some villages, not the whole municipality per se (and it was that which caused a whole load of "controversy"). The multirelgious and multiethnic municipal composition has been cited above in the lede and article body as per sources. Orthodox Albanians in the area that speak the Cham dialect do not support the PDIU and they don't identify as Chams. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:19, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- It is not a scholarly source, but it does show peoples perception. You are wrong to say they get support only from Muslims, since many Orthodox figures have voiced support for them. Damn it, I know an atheist from a Catholic family who was part of that party. You also know it very well that religion is personal first. Sure some people might identify with a religious culture, you can't claim this is the rule. I for example come from atheist family, (up to my grandparents), but my grand-grandparents were Bektashi. Do I and my family consider ourselves "culturaly Muslims"? No, we don't at all and we have no "Muslim practices" that can be considered "Cultural Muslim", yet you are putting irreligious people in one brush as religious Muslims. I know also a openly gay atheist Cham from Konispol who does not want to be identified with Muslim culture at all, should he be considred a Muslim too? I find these views on identity here to be very outdated and more inline with Ottoman Millet System. Also, the since the page itself refers to the municipality (as towns have no administrative standing) now it is wrong to put the sentence in the lede. Vargmali (talk) 23:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- It is correct because the lede sentence refers to the town of Konispol (the article after all is a blend about the town and wider municipality). Apart from Kalliretakis (1990s), Kretsi found the same reality of Islam being the religion of Konispol town in the 2000s when she was there. Making exceptions for a individual here or there, without also having scholarship to corroborate things means its original research. Wikipedia does not function on that premise. Scholarship or some kind of verifiable data needs to be used to to cite irreligiousity of people here or there. Otherwise its a free for all if we go on a hunch or 'i know a person'. I know people too from here or there, heck my mum converted from Islam to evangelical Christianity (Jehovah's Witness) when i was small in the diaspora and she raised me in that faith. I don't adhere to it in adulthood, nonetheless because of such things one wont say that now Albanians who come from Resen municipality or its diaspora are no longer Muslims but Jehovah's Witness because of a individual. The "exclusively" bit is removed. Beyond that the rest confirms with scholarly data.Resnjari (talk) 00:54, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
- It is not a scholarly source, but it does show peoples perception. You are wrong to say they get support only from Muslims, since many Orthodox figures have voiced support for them. Damn it, I know an atheist from a Catholic family who was part of that party. You also know it very well that religion is personal first. Sure some people might identify with a religious culture, you can't claim this is the rule. I for example come from atheist family, (up to my grandparents), but my grand-grandparents were Bektashi. Do I and my family consider ourselves "culturaly Muslims"? No, we don't at all and we have no "Muslim practices" that can be considered "Cultural Muslim", yet you are putting irreligious people in one brush as religious Muslims. I know also a openly gay atheist Cham from Konispol who does not want to be identified with Muslim culture at all, should he be considred a Muslim too? I find these views on identity here to be very outdated and more inline with Ottoman Millet System. Also, the since the page itself refers to the municipality (as towns have no administrative standing) now it is wrong to put the sentence in the lede. Vargmali (talk) 23:47, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- The PDIU is not a scholarly source, but a political party. Also people in the Cham community that support them are Chams which are practicing Muslims, cultural Muslims or of Muslim heritage (atheists etc). The specific sentence about Chams and Muslims relates to the town and some villages, not the whole municipality per se (and it was that which caused a whole load of "controversy"). The multirelgious and multiethnic municipal composition has been cited above in the lede and article body as per sources. Orthodox Albanians in the area that speak the Cham dialect do not support the PDIU and they don't identify as Chams. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:19, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- Resnjari, with the new administrative reform, Konispol municipality is just 52% Muslim now since the territory has been enlargened and and all other units have been removed. Also as you said mos Chams might be Muslim but not all of them. So at least it should be "Mostly Muslim Chams", even though the term is problematic along chams themselves. For example leader of the PDIU Cham issue party has often mentioned Orthodox Chams, so to many Chams this will appear divisive. Vargmali (talk) 23:11, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- The sources is based on fieldwork. The census is contested, also if there is data on the municipality per se that can be added in addition to the current content. It should not be conflated as one and the same. Most people who identify with the Cham Albanian subgroup are of the Muslim faith (or a descendants of people of the Muslim faith). How one interprets Muslim in Albania is another matter due to all the changes from the communist area until now. Anyway that kind of thing has been covered in the main Islam in Albania article. Orthodox Albanians in the Konispol municipality area who speak the Cham dialect do not use the term Cham for themselves. The change for Orthodox Albanians on the Albanian side of the border who speak Camerisht and Orthodox Albanian speakers of the Cham dialect in today's Thesprotia, Greece occurred in the 19th and early 20th century when they dissociated themselves with the term Cham. Anthropologist Laurie Kain Hart in her article Culture, Civilization, and Demarcation at the Northwest Borders of Greece, American Ethnologist Vol. 26, No. 1, 1999. [6] p.202 puts it this way: "The Tchamides {Tsamides, Cham in Albanian) were both Christian and Muslim by the late 18th century (in the 20th century, Cham applies to Muslims only)." Hugh Poulton, The Muslim experience in the Balkan states, 1919‐1991 Nationalities Papers Vol. 28, No. 1, 2000. [7] p. 58. says "The Muslim Chams in northern Greece remained a distinct group, however. Their faith prevented them from absorption in the Greek identity, to which Orthodoxy is central. Following the Second World War, they were expelled en masse from Greece and their mosques were destroyed." Historian Nicholas Hammond in his Epirus: the Geography, the Ancient Remains, the History and Topography of Epirus and Adjacent Areas (1967) [8] states of his observations of the 20th century interwar period that (p.31): "In fact the Liaps and Tsams claimed to be autonomous tribes, distinct and separate from the Gegs and Tosks. I found this to be true of the Liaps, but the Tsams seemed to have lost their cohesion as a tribe." The word Cham applies to Muslim Albanian speaking people of the area in the modern era. What links the local Orthodox Albanian speaking element to the Muslim one that they both speak the same Cham dialect. Musicologist Thansis Moraitis (of Arvanite descent) makes similar observation as well in the recent decades he spent doing fieldwork in the area [9]: "Η δεύτερη κατά σειρά ομάδα, μετά από αυτήν της νότιας Ελλάδας, σε πληθυσμό, είναι αυτή της Ηπείρου. Εκτείνεται στη δυτική Ήπειρο, κυρίως στην άλλοτε αποκαλούμενη και Τσαμουριά, που περιλαμβάνει το μεγαλύτερο μέρος του δυτικού τμήματος του νομού Θεσπρωτίας και το βόρειο μέρος του νομού Πρέβεζας. Οι Αρβανίτες αυτοί είναι σε εδαφική συνέχεια με την Αλβανία, με την παρεμβολή του ελληνόφωνου Βούρκου (Vurg) εντός της Αλβανίας, και η Αλβανική που μιλιέται εκεί ακόμα, η Τσάμικη, είναι η νοτιότερη υποδιάλεκτος του κεντρικού κορμού της Αλβανικής, αλλά έμεινε ουσιαστικά εκτός του εθνικού χώρου όπου κωδικοποιήθηκε η Αλβανική ως επίσημη γλώσσα του κράτους. Σ’ αυτή την περιοχή της Ηπείρου ζούσαν δίπλα στους χριστιανούς Αρβανίτες και μουσουλμάνοι (οι σήμερα λεγόμενοι Τσάμηδες), οι οποίοι εξεδιώχθησαν μαζικά και βίαια το 1944, μετά τη συνεργασία σημαντικού τμήματός τους με τις δυνάμεις κατοχής. Ο βαθιά ριζωμένος προεθνικός χωρισμός σε θρησκευτικές κοινότητες κατά την οθωμανική εποχή, παρ’ όλους τους δεσμούς συγγένειας γλώσσας και υλικού πολιτισμού, συντείνει ώστε οι ορθόδοξοι αρβανίτες να ενσωματωθούν ως Έλληνες εξ αρχής, ενώ οι μουσουλμάνοι θεωρήθηκαν, τουλάχιστον μετά το 1923 (έτος της ανταλλαγής των πληθυσμών), ξένο σώμα και οιονεί αλβανική μειονότητα. Είναι η μόνη ομάδα μουσουλμάνων των «Νέων Χωρών» της Ελλάδας που, αφού μπήκαν στην Ελλάδα το 1912-20 μαζί με τους μουσουλμάνους της δυτικής Θράκης, τελικά απέφυγαν την ανταλλαγή πληθυσμών. Οι αλβανόφωνοι χριστιανοί θεωρούν τους εαυτούς τους Έλληνες. Στα Ελληνικά αποκαλούν τη γλώσσα τους «Αρβανίτικα», όπως εξ άλλου όλοι οι Αρβανίτες της Ελλάδας, στα Αρβανίτικα όμως την ονομάζουν «Σκιπ»."Resnjari (talk) 21:11, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
- We can't ignore the census when the only other source is very old and makes an absurd claim that Cham Albanians are 100% Muslim. While the census is problematic, claiming Chams are 100% Muslim is even more so. So I think it should be removed since it makes the article look less serious in the eyes of the readers. Vargmali (talk) 19:00, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Resnjari and Kalinthos: It is a small detail. I do not have information on the issue, and as a matter of fact I did not have this article on my watchlist before coming accross this discussion. I made a change that I think adresses concerns of both of you? Am I right? Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:42, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- Calthinus, there may be an editorial oversight but there is also nothing out there in scholarship that says there has been a change as well in the Konispol area. The census ought to be taken with caution as in its larger context it was heavily contested and politicized. Though i don't dbout that there are people who are atheist in the area (not just Muslims but the Orthodox too) we would need something that relates directly to Konispol for the article and atheism. As you are familiar with these kinds of issues, Muslim has a range of connotations in Albania going from being believers/practitioners all the way to it being a cultural identity thing (and that can be within a family yet alone in a settlement). Anyway this is not the article for that kind of thing and a generalised discussion off that is already covered in the Islam in Albania article. I'm going to remove the word predominantly because that's not what the sources use and so far there is nothing provided in terms of scholarship to shows there has been changes to those specific villages.Resnjari (talk) 00:13, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- [The 2011 census, 7 years ago versus 23] (if it is to be trusted) disproves "exclusively" Muslim as there are Catholics there now -- 87% "Muslim", 1.5% "Cath", 2.7% "Orto", the rest assumedly unanswered (or Bekt, 0.2%). The difference from the current version [[5]] consists of a difference of one word-- exclusively versus predominantly. Kallivretakis is one of the most reliable sources we have (aside from atheist erasure which is, in Balkan fracas, less "sensitive"). But that doesn't mean we say things that aren't true just because they happened to be printed 23 years ago. Editorial oversight. ---- Calthinus (talk) 00:02, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- Calthinus, but the thing is it does create doubt because Kallivretakis does not state this, nor do the other scholars cited regarding demographics and a reader not familiar with the area will infer that to be the case. Plus its still original research using the term predominantly. If its predominately then who are the others ? And a source would be need to account for that. There has been no scholarship presented to show that a different ethnic group has moved into the town Konispol or those villages that are identified as being Muslim and Albanian. Until that time the previous stable version ought to be reinstated. Also the issue is not about the municipality as a whole but only relates to those settlements. With regards to Chams in the area the Orthodox Albanian speaking population though speaking the Albanian Cham dialect in the municipality do not in a modern context identify as Chams, but only as Orthodox Albanians. Kallivretakis, like Kretsi correctly identified the term only with local Albanian speaking Muslims in the area. No one knows if or how many atheists there are within the municipality and until there is data available the best course of action is to restore the stable version.Resnjari (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- Well there is a syntactic ambiguity because it could mean (predominantly Muslim) Cham Albanians, predominantly (Muslim Cham Albanians) or even predominantly (Muslim Cham) Albanians. The fact that the municipality is overwhelmingly Albanian, well there's no reason to doubt that. If it has remained exclusively Muslim or exclusively Cham (as opposed to also having Albanians from other regions)... well who knows what happened with the census then. But then again the census is well... the census. Re the weasel, um, sure, srv-ed.---- Calthinus (talk) 23:29, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- Calthinus, I respectfully disagree. You have to provide sources that show there has actually been migration to those specific places. Otherwise it is still conjecture on your part and the stable version should remain as it was. There is also nothing to indicate that Kallivretakis falsified data or that it is wrong. By adding and having it as "According to a 1995 survey by Kallivretakis et al," calls into question the factual accuracy of Kallivretakis via wp:weasel. It also makes the matter messy, as that section contains data by Hammond and Kretsi and all three don't contradict each other. Additionally having it as "predominantly" implies there are other ethnic groups etc in those villages and that somehow that is not stated in sources provided. The now banned editor made comments to Atheism. That is hard to quantify in Albania, yet alone for Konispol as data on it by a village by village basis is not available. Provided it exists, until or if it ever becomes available, then such additions can be made as long as they are sourced from credible sources. Additionally the Albanian Riviera does not encompass the Konispol area (see the article on it). The article should go back to the stable version [4] prior to the blocked editor stirring the pot.Resnjari (talk) 22:54, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
- It restores the article to what is was before. Though even if that word is not there the sentence would convey the same thing, as per the scholarship.Resnjari (talk) 00:48, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
Sure.-- Calthinus (talk) 02:07, 24 June 2018 (UTC)