Talk:Konstantin Tsiolkovsky

Space Elevator??

The article says "He is considered the father of human spaceflight and the first man to conceive the space elevator, " but there is no other reference to the space elevator in the article. Either this info should be added or the claim of conceiving the space elevator should be removed. 193.201.120.128 (talk) 10:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. 128.100.71.45 (talk) 19:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

It's from his earlier 1895 publication, "Grezy o Zemle i Nebe" (Dreams of the Earth and Sky)- inspired to conceive the Space Elevator after his visit to the Eifel Tower. See also the Space Elevator in Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcdownes (talk • contribs) 11:22, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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• TsiolkovskyCoin.jpg

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Tsiolkovsky as Crackpot?

A historian of Russian astronautics says Tsiolkovsky was just a crackpot, turned into "great scientist" by communist propaganda and Lenin's approval: https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2289495

For example, Tsiolkovsky has that crazy idea of launching 512 rockets, instead of 1 multi-stage rocket.

Other Tsiolkovsky's ideas are outright fascist.

For some reason, it is hard to find his actual texts online, but here is the scan of Tsiolkovsky's publication "НЕПРОТИВЛЕНИЕ", where he calls for radical eugenics, kill animals and bacteria: https://docplayer.ru/48959600-Sovokupnost-idey-gipotez-tezisov-sostavivshih-soderzhanie-filosofskih.html

The guy was patent schizo!

--NikitaSadkov (talk) 21:11, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

He would hardly be the only prominent rocket scientist to have an unfortunate relationship with fascism (and that said, since I can't read the second link, I have no idea if it is remotely exceptional for circa 1900, alas).

I don't think the other point stands up to any examination. Did the communists have a time machine, to fake up Tsiolkovsky's publication of the rocket equation two decades before the Revolution? Doubtless he had some ideas that turned out not to work; that is unremarkable for a pioneer so early as to never actually see a rocket launched to space. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:25, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

The rocket equation was not discovered by Tsiolkovsky. The variable-mass motion equation itself was known long before and even in Russian rocket science it was introduced by completely different scientist. The historian in that Russian article argues that Tsiolkovsky was really bad at math, so he couldn't discover this equation all by himself. In fact Tsiolkovsky had just elementary school level education. Yet communists liked the idea of a simple peasant genius, and turned Tsiolkovsky into a banner, similar to Lysenko and Stakhanov. --NikitaSadkov (talk) 17:56, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Uh, what that says is that Tsiolkovsky independently discovered it (albeit not the first); the source for that dates from 1903, 15 years before the Revolution. Of course Tsiolkovsky then had a lot of other significant work in the field. Communist Russia got a lot of use out of that time machine, I guess. Pinkbeast (talk) 18:30, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Eugenics was in vogue at the time, there was the newish idea of Darwinism, and they were trying to apply it too widely. The problem with Evolution is that it's an utterly amoral process, giving it a 'helping hand' with eugenics is not something you want to get into in most cases. But that wasn't clear back when he was writing. GliderMaven (talk) 17:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

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Importance of parallel experimental work and theory in 1920s

In parallel to Tsiolkowsky's groundbreaking theoretical breakthroughs, there were also instrumental experimental work going on in Germany which led i.a. after the Nazi take-over of power to many military applications and the infamous V2. Nevertheless the V2 was highly important for later US and Soviet rocket technologues. Therefore this tradition line is significant enough to be mentioned. Already 1928 and 1929 in Germany there were manned experimental rocket planes flying. As requested, a reference by Walter Boyne, director of US National Air & Space museum was added.

References

Also in Russia this important parallel development is recognized: Julius Hatry, designer of the RAK.1, was recipient of the Tsiolkowsky medal of Kaluga, Russia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.112.98.184 (talk • contribs) 18:04, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Suggest you review WP:RELEVANCE as I cannot see how “…roughly at the same time when Fritz von Opel's rocket-powered Opel RAK land vehicles and aircraft were demonstrated to the public,” is relevant to this article. How is German rocket research relevant an article about a Russian and Soviet rocket pioneer? At best this would be a WP:MINORASPECT that does not need to be detailed in this article. It is insufficient to say they were happening at the same time; during the 1920’s their was a lot of rocket reserach going on, for example, the Soviet Gas Dynamics Laboratory was researching rocketry in the USSR during the 1920s. However there is no need to mention the Gas Dynamics Laboratory in this article as it is a minor aspect that is not relevant. The same applies to German rocket research, US rocket research, etc they are all minor aspects which are not relevant to this article. I also note that the reference you have added does not mention Tsiolkovsky, you would need to find a reference that talks about both Tsiolkovsky and Opel to support your edit. Finally I note that you have added your edit to the section on “Tsiolkovsky solved the practical problem regarding the role played by rocket fuel in getting to escape velocity and leaving the Earth.” which has no connection to Opel’s rocket powered vehicle or aircraft.

Regarding your other comments on V-2 rockets and Julius Hatry, again what is the relevance to this article? Please provide citations that directly link Tsiolkovsky to these persons or items. Otherwise, as per WP:RELEVANCE they are not relevant to this article. Therefore have again reverted your edits.

Would suggest your edit would be more relevant to an article about Max Valier or similar. Ilenart626 (talk) 04:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Havenot edited at all, you removed content of this site. I just restored old content of this site. How can the very first manned rocket plane be not of relevance. Tsiolkowsky was one of the greatest, if not the greatest, theoretical rocket scientist. But fact is there was also the experimental line of tradition. Science advances as interplay between theory and experiment. I would say such a half-sentence on the experimental guys deep inside the Tsiolkowsky site is relevant and does not harm his reputation anyhow. 217.112.98.184 (talk) 07:46, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

If you are going to add a section on German rocket planes, why not add a section on Soviet rocket experiments conducted by the Gas Dynamics Laboratory in the 1920s? Why not add a section on Goddard launching the world's first liquid-fueled rocket in the 1920s? The reason is they are not relevant to this article, just like German rocket experiments in the 1920s are also not relevant. In addition your statement "Russians agree on relevance of parallel development between theory and experiment --> RAK designer awarded Tsiolkwsky medal of Kaluga, Russia, Hometown of Tsiolkowsky" is WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH, unless you can provide a reference supporting your assertion. Just checking, have you reviewed WP:RELEVANCE and WP:MINORASPECT? Ilenart626 (talk) 11:18, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Other rocket work is relevant to Tsiolkovsky, in that other theoreticians (Goddard, William Moore (British mathematician) Oberth, all did work which paralelled the Russian's and led to the same thing we call the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation. Moore did his work and published the equation in 1813, but no explanation is given for why the equation is credited to the Russian (published 1903). He seems to be venerated by the Russians as their rocket god, but his reputation is not without controvery (seeTalk:Konstantin Tsiolkovsky#Tsiolkovsky as Crackpot? above). We need to find a reliable source to determine whether he was a "crackpot" or not, and explain why he deserves his reputation as a pioneer.

Also, please bear in mind:

• WP:RELEVANCE is an opinion essay, not a policy or guideline.
• The essay says relevance is not an all-or-nothing absolute, but allows for a continuum of relevance. JustinTime55 (talk) 11:31, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

JustinTime55 suggest you need to refresh yourself with WP:TALK as your response is all over the place, ie “Stay on topic”, “Stay objective” and “Use separate subsection headings to discuss multiple changes.” The article already acknowledges other theoreticians in the Lead and the History section of Tsiolkovsky rocket equation already explains why it was named after Tsiolkovsky. If you want to make comments and suggests about a 4 year old discussion do so at (seeTalk:Konstantin Tsiolkovsky#Tsiolkovsky as Crackpot? above), not here. Regarding your comments on WP:RELEVANCE being an essay, so what? It is highly relevant to this discussion, which I see your next point you utilise to try to make a point about “continuum”, which I do not believe helps this discussion.

JustinTimee55, this discussion is about this edit, do you support or disagree? Ilenart626 (talk) 10:28, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Sources for Early Life

I've reverted a recent edit for several reasons (mainly it broke formatting), but the edit comment raises a valid question about sources for some of the assertions the article currently makes about Tsiolkovsky's early life. In particular, are the religions and ethnicities of his parents sourced and relevant? (sdsds - talk) 09:38, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I’ve fixed the broken link, which confirmed that he was the “Son of a Polish forester who emigrated to Russia,” But I agree the rest of the details are unsourced. Ilenart626 (talk) 09:46, 3 February 2024 (UTC)