Talk:KosherSwitch

NPOV

I would welcome any input on how to maintain WP:NPOV in this article. I have pretty much zero interest in any religion and edited the article because as an electronics engineer I felt that it should have a section explaining the technical details. Alas, I also found some violations of NPOV such as calling the rabbis on one side of the disagreement "reputable" and describing the other side with words like "unsubstantiated allegations" "spreading misinformation", "blatant lies" and "such hypocrisy has been decried by impartial bystanders" I also ran across [ http://www.kosherswitch.com/live/halacha/truth ] where the creators of KosherSwitch are clearly in a huge fight with some rabbis. I would very much like to have someone with no position on this but with more familiarity with the religious issues to take a look at this article. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:17, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

My take after taking a look is that some rabbis endorse this, others do not.... Which is quite typica in this field. We should not be calling either side reputable. We should also avoid PROMO of the product, though it does seem that it is notable.Icewhiz (talk) 08:43, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

This page[1] discusses the rules and clears up a few things for me. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:19, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Patent

I am having a bit of trouble figuring out [ https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/48/4f/8c/b1df4e115e8359/US7872576.pdf ]. In particular, I am having trouble with

"FIG. 3 shows an embodiment of the present invention including a device having one pair consisting of one transmitter positioned opposite one receiver. FIG. 5 shows an embodiment of the present invention including a device having two pairs, each pair consisting of a transmitter positioned opposite a receiver."

What is the point of the two transmitters and receivers (which anyone else would call light sources and light detectors)? Figure 7 shows one or the other being blocked. Why? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:00, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

The following is no doubt wildly inaccurate (I know nothing about this other than what I found doing a web search), but here is what I think is going on with the Orthodox rules. Please correct me if you know more about this.

I will annotate. To an Orthodox Jew, these rules would apply in theory to any Jew. But I won't fuss with that now... Additionally, any of the following would not apply where saving a life is an issue. So let's assume for the following that such issues do not come into play. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:10, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

• Orthodox Jews are (usually?) not allowed to light a candle or blow out a candle on the sabbath.

• If an Orthodox Jews opens a window on a windy day, knowing that doing so will blow out a candle, this is considered indirectly blowing out the candle. I think that the rules are a bit different between direct and indirect, but I am not clear how.

  The rules on this can be complicated. But to summarize briefly, if the person knows that doing so will blow out a candle, that still creates a problem. If opening the window may cause the candle to go out, it's a different story.

• An Orthodox Jew can light a candle before the sabbath and use it for illumination after the sabbath starts. Starting a fire that is not allowed, but the fire itself is. Likewise with electric lights.

• An Orthodox Jew can light a short candle, knowing that it will burn out during the sabbath. This is not considered putting the fire out. Based upon this, it appears that setting a timer before the sabbath to start/stop an electrical appliance during the sabbath is allowed, and there are smart phone apps and wireless relays that are used to do things like cook a dinner on an electric stove.

  Sort of. Setting a timer is allowed, and turning on and off lights with one is basically universally accepted. Using a timer to do something outright forbidden on Shabbat, like cook a meal, would still not be allowed. Beyond lights, there are different views on purposes for which timers can and cannot be used. It doesn't matter whether the timer is a mechanical or an electrical (wired or wireless) relay, and you generally can't touch the timer on Sabbath.

• If an Orthodox Jews opens a window on a non-windy day without knowing whether wind is in the forecast and later a wind blows out the candle, that is allowed. And he isn't required to close the window if he sees a wind coming up.

• I am not clear about what happens if he knows that there is a 90% chance of wind, and whatever the rule is on that appears to be at the heart of whether the KosherSwitch is allowed.

Clearly there ate a lot of complexities that are going right over my head on this: see [2][3][4][5] --Guy Macon (talk) 07:52, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

It seems the innovation here is the microchip randomly enabling/disabling the switch.Icewhiz (talk) 08:45, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Here is where it gets interesting. I know nothing about Jewish law, but I am an expert in the field of random number generators. It is impossible for any computer to make random numbers, but a computer can be hooked to an external source of randomness. By itself, the chip is entirely deterministic. Microcontrollers create pseudorandom numbers. A human has a really hard time predicting a pseudorandom output, but someone like me can examine the program and predict the output with 100% certainty. I suppose that the creators of KosherSwitch could contact me or someone like me and get advice on how to make the device a true random device. For the record, I think that the device at http://www.bitbabbler.org/ is one of the best. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:51, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

If they are using a PRNG (and not a physical source) - that is indeed not true random - however with enough state bits and inablity to observe/measure the state by practical users - it may be effectively unpredictable. All this being said, their true Kosher issue is "gaming the system" and "keeping up appearences" - rabbis try to avoid koshering a loophole - unless there is a very good reason to do so.Icewhiz (talk) 10:53, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

That's what I gathered from reading various webpages about this. Someone pointed out an example where a woman couldn't get to her bedroom without a chairlift, and it looks like they bent over backwards to figure out how to allow it. My impression was that rabbis, as a rule, are thoughtful and compassionate. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:41, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

So to conclude my annotation ...

• Two separate issues create the justification to allow the switch: (1) an initial delay so that a (pseudo-)random number can be generated, and (2) a subsequent delay based further on the random number as to when or whether the switch will actually actuate. Thus there is both "delay" and "uncertainty" that create doubts, and there is leniency sometimes when there are doubled doubts. [As long as the number is random from the perspective of a user who cannot in fact touch the system in order to examine it, it's random enough for this purpose.]
• As was stated earlier, part of the issue here is that many rabbis object that there is not a good reason to kosher this loophole for everyday situations. So even if the mechanics of the switch get past the technical Sabbath violations, they would still not permit this for general use.
• Some rabbis take the position that if something like this could be used in settings where lifesaving is a real issue (think hospitals, first aid squads, etc.), it is preferable to have something like this in place than to have a person actually actuate a switch on Sabbath, given a choice. Others take the position that once you've invoked lifesaving, there is no prohibition, and complicating things with a switch like this is itself a problem, if it should get in the way of the lifesaving.
• Similarly, some rabbis take the position that the switch could be used in situations where it would otherwise be permissible to engage a Shabbos goy for the purpose, such as a light switch for a public building like a synagogue. (The reality is narrower than the myth, by the way.)
• I hope this has provided some further help. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:10, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Is there really any "doubt" when you have a switch that turns on the light every time, but may take 2 seconds or 20 seconds to do it? After, say, a minute, the light is on every time. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:39, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Although the article states in general terms what the purpose of the switch is, there is nothing about how the switch is used by its owner or how it works. This information was present before but was deleted on reasonable grounds; it should be restored in a form that does not read like an advertisement.

Hardware random number generators that rely on the assumed unpredictability of thermal noise are included in recent AMD and Intel chips, see RdRand. However, strong theoretical proof of the unpredictability is lacking. The most theory-supported method of generating random bits was announced a few months ago [6] but it is very far away from everyday practicality. Zero^talk 12:03, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

To answer Guy Macon's original question, it looks like the first transmitter is for turning on an off the light. The second transmitter is used for turning on and off Kosher mode. See claim 9. ~Kvng (talk) 14:37, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

If you look at the very first drawing at [ https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/48/4f/8c/b1df4e115e8359/US7872576.pdf ] you will see that there is a single rocker that interrupts the light on one transmitter or the other, but never both. The kosher mode switch looks to be just a normal switch and thus has to be actuated before the sabbath. -- I can tell because if they used the same scheme there would have to be a second red/green indicator for the kosher switch. (If I was designing it I would make it so that it knows when the sabbath is and goes into the correct mode automatically.) --Guy Macon (talk) 16:26, 9 October 2018 (UTC)