Talk:Kosher salt

Is "nearly all salt" really kosher?

Could you explain why all salt is kosher? Thanks. 68.3.216.218

I'm not intimate with the technicalities of Jewish dietary law, but I suspect that the answer is similar to the following:

Ironically, nearly all salt could be kosher, were its production to be supervised by an appropriate rabbinical authority; there is nothing inherent in the production of salt that is non-kosher.

But we really need a subject matter expert to come along and bless one version or the other :-). Atlant 11:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I read once that it had to do with the whitening process, and if it used bone, and if so, what animals the bone came from. But I'm no expert. I also read that it often still contains anti-caking additives. FireWorks 22:12, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Like all minerals and plants, salt is kosher. However during processing, if it comes in contact with anything not kosher it can become not kosher. The role of the rabbi is to make sure that doesn't/didn't happen. Also any additives need to be checked (where did they come from, anything non kosher in them?). Basically, 'salt is kosher' because there is nothing in it that is not kosher. Kosher is actually defined by the reverse - if it doesn't have anything in it that is not kosher, then the default is 'kosher'. The list of what is not kosher is very specific, and I'm sure wikipedia has an article on it elsewhere. Ariel. 21:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Kosher foods Potatoswatter 01:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Why "Kosher" salt?

Why is it called Kosher salt? Is there any historical context like when it was first called that and by whom.

It's used to make meat Kosher by removing the blood from the meat (or so I've heard). If that's really true and the article doesn't already say that, someone should add it. Atlant 20:32, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The article half said it; I've now completed the thought. Atlant 20:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Techincally it's actually called 'Koshering salf', not 'Kosher salt'. Ariel. 21:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

"or more correctly, koshering salt". If this is true, perhaps the name of the article should be changed to koshering salt, with something like "commonly referred to as kosher salt" at the beginning, and kosher salt as a redirect. Also, in an absence of protest, I'm removing the food network line. 67.160.147.2 (talk) 19:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I've lived in the US all my life (and I'm nearly sixty), and I've been Jewish all my life, and I have hardly ever heard it called "koshering salt". I think the article should be under the name that is most often used for it. Google gives about 653,000 hits for "kosher salt" (in quotation marks to search for the phrase, not just both words) and about 769 for "koshering salt". -- I've added a redirection page "Koshering salt". If anyone looks for it under that name (which I think unlikely), they'll be redirected here. I'm also changing the description of the term, since "koshering salt" might be more accurate but is probably just confusing, since almost nobody uses it. -- Thnidu (talk) 00:41, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The Food Network

Shouldn't the 'Food Network' extra be removed? It doesn't do much to help the article's informality. That's like putting a link to Harmon Kardon or Dolby on a speaker Wikipedia link. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.25.101.18 (talk • contribs) .

Relative Volume of Kosher v Regular Salt

I'm changing the reference to doubling the amount of salt called for in a recipe if using kosher instead of table. The average grain size of kosher salts can vary considerably from one brand to another. I will change it to reflect the difference. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.74.195.60 (talk) 21:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

Manufacturing

Do you have any information you could add that explains how Kosher salt is manufactured that makes it different from table salt? Is it mined, evaporated, what? Thanks. 69.232.79.251 12:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Sandy]

• I think its just the size of crystals. Its not ground as fine. Donkay ote 08:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's ground at all: "Kosher salt has a much larger grain size than regular table salt, and a more open granular structure." Come to think of it, I was reading that as "crystal structure". What does "more open granular structure" mean? -- Thnidu (talk) 00:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Iodine content belongs in the article?

Could someone please clue me in as to why the paragraph about iodine is needed? I could understand mentioning that kosher salt has (or does not have) iodine, but shouldn't a dissertation and a link belong in the Salt article? Thanks, GlobeGores 22:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• I looked in my pantry at a box of Morton's iodized table salt and a box of Diamond Crystal (non-iodized) "Kosher salt". Both are labelled as kosher.

Barnaby the Scrivener (talk) 20:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, this paragraph contains a link that was previously removed by Ariel. , for being "unrelated to kosher salt". Is this link okay? Sincerely, GlobeGores 22:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I, too, felt it should be removed. TJFox (talk) 16:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Americanism?

I've finally found out what kosher salt is! It's coarse cooking salt. I've never heard the term outside the USA, and had thought it was some kind of yuppie thing. Does anybody know of the use of the term outside North America? Groogle (talk) 06:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, it should be mentioned it is an American term. It isn't used anywhere else as a general term.

It's a nonsensical Americanism and it should be deleted promptly.92.252.90.81 (talk) 12:50, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

The generic name for additive-free coarse salt seems to be either Kitchen Salt or Cooking Salt. But which? Checking in other languages for hints I've found, for example in France, Sel de Cuisine, in Spain Sal Gruesa Cocina - and confirmed those are the names on packages for this type of salt by image searching those names. The problem is those names could be translated to either cooking or kitchen, however German is definitively Küchen Salz (kitchen salt) which is specifically sold as the large grained variety and image searches show many different packages using that name for this salt but the German Kochsalz (cooking salt) returns no packages with that name. Lexlex (talk) 19:53, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

There is no "Küchensalz" in German. If that is written on packaging it's most likely based on a marketing decision. "Kochsalz" is used but it is simply generic salt like in "Speisesalz".There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Definitely Americanism. I doubt that even "kitchen salt" and "cooking salt" are a thing. They are IMHO label-speak to "help" customers identify the desired product. I looked up kosher/kitchen/cooking salt in Oxford/Cambridge/Macmillan's dictionary + Encyclopedia Britannica and none of these combinations exist.There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Please note above has already been addressed in the article and WP:NOT A FORUM. Lexlex (talk) 17:56, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

@Lexlex:: Has it been fully addressed? Of the four sources linked to the definition of kosher salt in this article, the first one is in fact a definition for "kitchen salt", the second source does not seem to mention salt at all, and two are not accessible. The only source that mentions "kosher salt" also refers to "sea salt" as something different. Does that mean "kosher salt" cannot be made from sea salt? If that is truly the case, then it is unlikely that "kitchen salt" and "kosher salt" are the same. The etymology offers a source (though I wouldn't call a salt manufacturer a reliable source) that describes kosher salt as "flake-style" crystals which have a "unique" texture. That would make kosher salt either an American peculiarity that is not commonly available elsewhere or it is something that only exists in recipes and TV shows elevate the dish in front of your eyes. Furthermore, I think there is some confusion in this article about the meaning of "table salt" which is simply sodium chloride as opposed to other salts such as Epsom salt. It does not mean it is only used at the table. And yes, not a forum, but frankly all that chit-chat about unrelated German words was a bit leading the way there. Still, I believe the mystery of "kosher salt" has not been adequately dealt with. I, for my part, have not been able to find any credible sources that offer anything close to a satisfactory definition of the term.There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 00:31, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

@There-is-life-on-mars:: What are the changes you are proposing and what references support it? The claim there is no "Küchen Salz" in German even if that's how it is sold is un-referenced. Lexlex (talk) 07:48, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

@Lexlex:: The problem is that the article as it stands is not supported by reliable references. There are no sources that confirm the claim that kosher salt is the same as kitchen salt, cooking salt, coarse salt or whatever you call it. There does not seem to be any definition other than inconsistent ones by low profile recipe writers but nothing substantial like a standard text book used in cooking schools. Even the claim that kosher salt is iodine free is probably bogus as such salt varieties apparently also get kosher certification. Generally, US manufacturers seem to avoid the word altogether unless it happens in a religious context. The same happens for instance with British manufacturers. You won't find the term "kitchen salt" on their website but salt products in different grain sizes. Of the two most frequently mentioned manufacturers of kosher salt, Morton uses the term exclusively for retail products while Diamond Crystal sells "fine kosher salt" that fits into shakers. So are we still talking about coarse rock salt without additives?

As for that German word, it does not exist as a term (and it would be "Küchensalz" written together). That does not mean the word is not used for marketing purposes. It's comparable to something like "Party-Würstchen" (party sausages). Or talking about salt "Alpensalz" and "Markensalz" which is also sold. You will find neither of these in any dictionary. Words like these are created constantly for ordinary commodities to maximise profits or open new markets. "Alpen-", "Küchen-" or "Marken-" or common prefixes used in marketing food products. Salt is so ordinary and boring that the only way to make more profit from it is to give it new names.

So what do I propose? Remove everything that does not have a reliable source attached to it and then see what's left. --NOR does not mean NR-- There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 17:38, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

@There-is-life-on-mars:Would you be kind enough to tag the specific claim(s) and/or what you consider to be questionable references at issue within the article? Verifiable published references support the term is exclusively used for coarse, additive-free, edible salt, therefore if it is reference veracity at issue, please advise what you would consider a more reliable reference for an already identified marketing term if not the cited cook books, cooking magazines, etc. If one brand is now selling "fine" Kosher salt, it might be argued that a specific manufacturer interprets the term as meaning only "additive-free", but would think an unrelated corroborating reference would be needed for support. Please note application of WP:Common Name. Re: Germany, here in Berlin most brands call it only "Küchen Salz" (two words) (Es gibt jedoch keine entsprechende deutsche Seite. Wer weiß?) Lexlex (talk) 19:15, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

@Lexlex:: US Salt sells iodised salt with kosher certification. The fact that most kosher salts are additive-free may well be that the culinary industry simply prefers cheaper salts. A reliable source would have an authoritative, scientific or educational background. Modern-day food journalism is mostly opinion-based and prone to covert advertising. Accountability in that area probably does not even exist and why should there be any? Unless you suggest something like roasting dogs or cats, there are no ethical boundaries whatsoever.

Another brain-teaser: Can you explain why none of these historical American cookbooks from up to the 1990s ask for kosher salt as ingredient? Frankly, I thought the term is widely used in the US because it's all over the internet but now I starting to think that it has only recently been fully accepted as a standard term. According to this article that suspicion somewhat by stating that the term in its modern form did practically not exist before the end of the 1960s.

Problems in a nutshell: 1. A reliable clear definition cannot be found. 2. only one of these can be true: a) non-additive claim and/or non-sea salt as mentioned in currently used sources and/or flaky grains, b) kosher salt equals kitchen/cooking salt (these are not necessarily additive-free, not sea salt or flaky), 3. rock salt is a mineral that can be processed into various types of edible salt including kosher salt.

@There-is-life-on-mars: Please start with tagging/proposing the changes you want. This article is already well-documented and cited. Your request for "authoritative, scientific or educational background" citations for a non-scientific article on a non-scientific kitchen product is based on what Wikipedia policy? Again, first identify the specific changes you want to make so they can be discussed with editors who have already invested significant time in this article. In the meantime please stop disruptive editing/deletion of the article until some consensus can be reached. Consider the article has a high daily view count, has remained relatively unchanged since it was rewritten two years ago, and you are the only editor to have raised such concerns. Give the other editors time to notice and respond to you before such major changes. I would also suggest starting a new section below outlining your goal and the changes you want to make. There may be other solutions not yet considered. (e.g. splitting the article to religious/practical, reverting back to salt, etc.) but each change should be raised first, not the rationale behind unspecified changes. Lexlex (talk) 09:01, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

@Lexlex:: Please start providing sources for changes you made. Please note that the section that I removed is unrelated to this discussion and is not sourced. When you cite or refer to sources you should really read them. Please see section Cleaning in talk. There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 09:15, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

@Lexlex: You claim that there are different standards for different articles on Wikipedia. Simply because it's a non-scientific article does not mean WP:RS does not apply. Sources?"that are promotional in nature, or that rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions" are still unreliable sources. The fact that this kind of journalism is more pervasive in the food media does not make it easier to find reliable sources. On the contrary, it makes it more difficult. How many of the cited sources so far have editorial oversight or even anything close to an editorial policy? That there are major issues in this article should be obvious. That's why there are so many discussions here in the first place. The ambiguous nature of the term, its territoriality and short history make it prone to such issues. There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 11:24, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

"leach"

The article says

the salt remains on the surface of the meat longer, allowing fluids to leach out of the meat.

That link is to a disambiguation page. None of the processes described in any of those articles mention using a solid to remove a solute from a substance; they all refer to using a liquid, or to processes that all occur above the boiling point of water. Neither do any of the definitions in Merriam-Webster (leach, 2, verb) or the Oxford English Dictionary. Wiktionary has one definition,

(transitive) To purge a soluble matter out of something by the action of a percolating fluid.

which pretty well summarizes most of the M-W and OED senses. Changing the verb to "draw out", as used by [1]. -- Thnidu (talk) 00:31, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

It's an osmotic process. The salt creates a high concentration of solute on the outside of the cell membranes which draws fluid out. The word leach was actually OK. It's a variant of "leech" and "leech" has an intransitive verb sense meaning "to drain a substance of". It's fine to make this sort of change as you see fit though, without a talk page discussion. Be bold. Gigs (talk) 04:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

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"British" term?!

In Britain it's known as cooking salt or rock salt. For centuries, the British Isles have been fundamentalist Christian, and would NEVER have used the term "koshering". There was no Jewish taboo against eating blood. It's a foreign concept. The British "Black Pudding" is almost entirely blood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.171.129.74 (talk) 09:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't call the population of the British Isles "fundamentalist Christian" and Jews have a long history in the UK (see: List_of_British_Jews ). On the other hand I don't think a link to a site which sells a product called "koshering salt" in UK Pounds really demonstrates that this is a British term.

Nolandda (talk) 23:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

You're both missing the point. British Jews or non Jews who know about it (tradesmen, suppliers etc) call it "koshering salt", not "kosher salt". That's all. --Dweller (talk) 13:21, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

To this end, I've removed the confusing "British term" wording, which was repetitive anyway. --Dweller (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

It's known as rock salt in the UK. I've never heard of kosher(ing) salt, and looking at a couple of on-line supermarkets they only sell rock salt.ƕ (talk) 11:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Try a Google-UK-only search for "koshering salt" -- 132 results. "kosher salt" gives 9500, and "rock salt" 65000. I know proof by Google is no good, but the reference I deleted was just a single recipe -- hardly evidence of geneneral usage! ƕ (talk) 11:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Most UK kosher establishments have weak or no internet presence, so this is hardly surprising. Further, your POV that a RS was "just a single recipe" is irrelevant. And to boot, you actually blanked two sources, not one, the second of which is an industry source. --Dweller (talk) 12:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Remove the reference to koshering salt in Britan as this is a term NEVER used by the general population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.28.206.253 (talk) 20:55, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Should we also remove any entries that mention transubstantiation, as this is also a term not used by the general population? --Dweller (talk) 23:32, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

No, but if something is described as "usually" then I think it is sensible to use the term that is usually used. As a forty-something British citizen, I had never heard the term Koshering salt until I read the entry today. I have amended the entry accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.27.50 (talk) 11:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Whoever it was that said that there's no Jewish taboo against eating blood was talking nonsense. Look at Genesis 9:4 and see what it says. Jewish tradition has always held that this prohibits the eating of blood, and that's why koshering meat requires drawing the blood out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.159.54 (talk) 20:10, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Page move

I've initiated discussion with the editor who moved this page at his talk page. I'd appreciate it if no-one edit warred on moving it backward and forward until consensus emerges. --Dweller (talk) 10:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

the original title i moved this article from in my opinion failed to live up to WP:NPOV. "Kosher salt" is a quasi marketing term in the U.S, not anywhere else where it is large grain salt and the such. the original purpose of "Kosher salt" was for "kashering meat" in the process described, and it should have more of an emphasis in the lead section of the article too, not just that it is now a major commercial commodity by its name. ephix (talk) 19:34, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

A Google search for "Kashering Salt" yielded slightly more than 1000 results. I looked up "kashering" in several dictionaries and was redirected to "kosher". The article itself states that the salt is called kosher salt in the U.S., koshering salt in the United Kingdom, and course cooking salt elsewhere. It seems to me that the discussion should be between "kosher salt" and "koshering salt", not between a third term that isn't widely used for the salt at all. From what I recall of the gas vs. petrol argument, the solution when naming articles with different legitimate titles is to go with what the title of the article was when it was created. I'm not sure what that is, but would there be any objections to going back to the original title? Haschel47 (talk) 23:34, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I've not heard of the term "kosher salt", but it seems to be a US term. If it's a brand name, I'd be concerned naming the generic article for it. In any case, it does have problems as the article states, because it misleads one into thinking ordinary salt is not kosher. I'd therefore prefer it to be at koshering or kashering. The two terms are fairly interchangable, but we have RS for the former. I'd therefore suggest it ends at Koshering salt with redirects from kosher salt and kashering salt. But I'm keen to hear from some American editors. --Dweller (talk) 10:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not a specific brand name. As mentioned above, the salt was originally used for drawing the blood out of the meat. This led to the name "koshering salt". In the United States, this is almost always shortened to "kosher salt", regardless of which company sells the salt. Anyhoo, I have never heard it referred to as "kashering salt" before this page was moved.Haschel47 (talk) 09:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

If it's not a proprietory name, I have no strong objection for reverting to Kosher salt. I couldn't tell you whether Kosher salt or koshering salt is the more common usage, but I'd probably go with the American in terms of numbers of English speakers who'd use the stuff. --Dweller (talk) 11:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Since there wasn't any more input, I went ahead and moved the page to "Kosher Salt".Haschel47 (talk) 22:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I see other editors above have also used the term "koshering" and others have been confused about this salt apparently being kosher when others are not, which is of course a fallacy. --Dweller (talk) 10:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC) I see there's been more page move shenanigans. See below. --Dweller (talk) 13:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Kosher Cheeseburger

Where can I obtain this kosher cheeseburger? I think a citation is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.203.20.239 (talk) 18:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

• I was a bit confused by this question but it seems to be in response to this version. It only refers to the Lower East Side, of which city I don't know. Tyciol (talk) 02:16, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

That section was (properly) removed from the article because it's total nonsense. Not even the most secular Jews do that. Ariel. (talk) 09:00, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Page move warring

No-one should be page move warring, and doing so will just end up with this page being protected. It seems we clearly understand:

1. in the United States, this is known as "Kosher salt"
2. however, we have cited examples of how there's a move away from this terminology there
3. in GB this is known as "Koshering" or "Kashering" salt
4. elsewhere, we either don't know or it's called something else entirely, like "coarse"
5. the expression "kosher salt" is confusing, as it implies that there is a type of salt that is kosher and a type that is not, which is not the case.

In the absence of a definitive proof over which term of 1 and 3 has primacy, I'd suggest that argument 5 is persuasive (which is why argument 2 is happening).

While we debate this, please do not move the page again. It's edit warring and you could end up being blocked. --Dweller (talk) 13:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

This was not edit warring. I saw the page being moved after a post in the non-controversial moves section at WP:RM but from looking at this talk page, it is (although not huge) not non-controversial hence I moved it back. I have no opinion on how the article should be named. :) Garion96 (talk) 15:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah. I'm glad about that. But let's use this as an opportunity to sort this out once and for all, because it has pinged back and forth a few times of late. --Dweller (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Kosher salt may be confusing, but if it's the name generally used, then it should be the name of the article, in my humblest of opinions. Bus stop (talk) 18:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Dweller. The correct term is "kashering (or koshering) salt," since that's what this salt is used for in kashrut — to soak the blood out of meat and render it kosher. It is also called "coarse salt" as opposed to table salt. But manufacturers in the U.S. are writing "kosher salt" on their products for easy identification with Jewish customers. To name our article "kosher salt" will signify to laymen that there is a salt that is kosher and a salt that is not. Let's rename the page "Kashering (or Koshering) Salt" and explain the alternate name in the lead. Yoninah (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Having used this type of salt many times for kashering, and during Pesch instead of regular salt, I must agree that "kashering salt" is the correct term. Combined with the arguments of Dweller and Yoninah, I come to the conclusion that a rename would be preferable. After all, there will still be a redirect to link from the more familiar term "kosher salt". Debresser (talk) 21:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm opposed to promoting terms. Usage is what should guide us. Google hits are as follows.

• "kosher salt" — 239,000
• "koshering salt" — 3,700
• "kashering salt" — 586

Unless it could be determined that the quality of the hits for the second two terms are better, I think this article should be titled "Kosher salt." Bus stop (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

You're unpersuaded by the term being confusing to those who've not come across the term before because they know little or because they're not in the US? --Dweller (talk) 21:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the confusion can be cleared up within the article. The question is what factors one takes into consideration in picking between 3 competing terms for the same article title. In the pursuit of clearing up the confusion should we opt for choosing an unpopular name for the item being referred to? That would call for a counterbalancing statement in the article alerting the reader to our reasons for choosing the less popular name. That is not entirely unworkable. But I think the least awkward method is to use the most popular title but to note the existence of a misleading characteristic built into the most popular appellation. Thus the article would explain that the salt is not really kosher, but rather that it is used in the koshering (or kashering) process. Bus stop (talk) 21:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

In view of these figures I have to agree with Bus stop, provided that the issue is addressed properly in the first paragraph of the lede (which I think it is at present). Debresser (talk) 06:31, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Bus Stop's figures are, indeed, persuasive. Anyone else have an opinion? --Dweller (talk) 10:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the number of Google hits are impressive. I agree with calling it "Kosher salt" and explaining the "kashering" part in the lead. Yoninah (talk) 20:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Interwiki

I was surprised to see there was no he: link - I assumed they'd have an article on this topic. I can't type hebrew, so thought I'd be clever and click through to the he: article on Salt... but there doesn't seem to be an article on salt in he: either! Anyone? --Dweller (talk) 10:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I highly doubt there's a Hebrew article specifically on Koshering Salt. I did however add the interwiki link for salt in general. Breein1007 (talk) 02:14, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks --Dweller (talk) 09:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Possibly related to shrimp?

In the south San Francisco Bay area of California, one salt supplier floods shallow areas with sea water, then closes dikes, and lets the water evaporate during the dry summer. The lsat is left behind, then purified. But at an intermediate stage, brine shrimp live in the very salt water, and their remains will be in the salf before purification. Shrimp is not kosher. Could that be related? This is not an informed opinion, merely a point for discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.249.112.62 (talk) 01:08, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Varieties of salt

The "gourmet salt" fad has resulted in a huge number of variations on salt.[2] SaltWorks offers a kosher salt guide. They distinguish between salts which are certified kosher by the Orthodox Union, and "kosher-style" salt, "characterized by its distinct small, flake-style crystal". They offer other salt varieties with much larger grains. Most of their products other than their flavored and colored salts are certified kosher, including both sea salt and mined salt product lines. Their comment is "Interestingly enough, it is believed that this style of salt took on the name “kosher,” because the unique texture and shape are useful in the process of koshering meat. Of course, this name created the confusion!" --John Nagle (talk) 05:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Added refs from Salt Institute and SaltWorks, so we now have some reasonable sources. --John Nagle (talk) 18:04, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Added ref to Orthodox Union re koshering procedure. We now have citations for all but the cooking/seasoning section. Anybody into cooking? --John Nagle (talk) 21:20, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Koshering vs. salt curing

Someone added "powerful extracting power of removing blood from meat" re koshering salt. Koshering doesn't go all the way to full dessication. It's just a surface treatment for meat that will be cooked. Removing all the blood and water yields salt-cured meat or jerky. --John Nagle (talk) 18:51, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

does the term originate in the use of blood to separate impurities in the salt itself?

During the Middle Ages, a small amount of animal blood was sometimes added to the salt brine to separate impurities. Would that have made the salt non-kosher? and could this be related to the origin of the term--i.e., that kosher salt had not been made with blood. Such use is noted here: [3] and in the recent book Salt: A World History

Ecambrose (talk) 17:22, 26 October 2012 (UTC) E. C. Ambrose

Move page?

It seems to me from reading the article, the Talk: page, and this advertorial reference that one can distinguish different senses of "kosher salt" as follows:

Types of salt

Certified kosher?→ ↓Coarse, no additives?	Yes	Not necessarily
Yes	Koshering salt	Kosher-style salt, Cooking salt, flake salt, etc
Not necessarily	Kosher-certified salt	Salt

I suspect that for the following groups, "kosher salt" means:

1. Jews: Koshering salt
2. American non-Jews: Kosher-style salt
3. other non-Jews: term not used.

The article is mainly about sense #2 with some mention of sense #1. Given that "kosher salt" is ambiguous, and the article's focus is blurred as a result, I think it makes sense to move the article to cooking salt or kitchen salt. The term "kosher salt" can be explained succinctly by delegating to kashrut, dry brining, and hechsher. jnestorius^(talk) 11:30, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree It is primarily a North American term. The mystified comments above from readers in other countries underscore this. Having it as the Wiki article name is US-centric and could even be offensive in a certain light: Calling the article "Kosher" salt just because US salt executives saw it used by Jews is little different than Chinese Rice, Negro Watermelons or Muslim Couscous—vestiges of earlier generations—all of which would likely be inappropriate article names today. Lexlex (talk) 12:28, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

For example in Germany it is exclusively "Kitchen Salt" (Küchen Salz) See this Google image search Lexlex (talk) 12:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 16 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. There was no agreement for the proposed title or other suggestions. Cúchullain ^t/c 20:13, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

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Kosher salt → Kitchen salt – The term "kosher salt" is (1) little known outside North America and (2) ambiguous between kosher-certified salt, koshering salt, and kosher-style salt, all of which are different. jnestorius^(talk) 18:20, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

• Strong oppose "Kitchen salt" is more vague, and can refer to table salt, sea salt, sel gris, or literally whatever a cook uses in their own kitchen. Kosher salt is the predominant COMMONNAME in the US; I can't speak for other countries. As for the other terms you mentioned, they're just synonyms: all salt is Kosher, it's called that because it historically was used for koshering. "kosher-style salt" means nothing, but probably refers to Kosher salt. See Kashrut#Linguistics. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 18:48, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support kitchen salt redirects here and isn't called "kosher salt" outside the US. table salt redirects to salt. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:38, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

"isn't called "kosher salt" outside the US." ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 04:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• Collins English Dictionary : kosher salt: noun US a coarse flaky salt that contains no additives, used in cooking and in preparing kosher meals jnestorius^(talk) 09:26, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

That dictionary does not provide any evidence, data, or supporting detail, it simply puts one country's name next to a term? That's very weak evidence. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 12:59, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

A dictionary is considered an acceptable published reference. What would would you want to see to satisfy your objection here? Lexlex (talk) 16:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

"That dictionary does not provide any evidence" — Seriously? Only the OED offers historical citations, and even those could be called "cherry picking" by an incorrigible sceptic. You've already said you "can't speak for other countries". If you assert that "kosher salt" is common outside the US then the burden of proof is on you to show sources at least as reputable as Collins' professional lexicographers. jnestorius^(talk) 09:34, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

You people don't get it. Just because a dictionary says a term is used in the US is very shallow. Where else is it used or not used? Where is that data from? Who obtained the data and how? There's nothing to go on except an assumption. As well, most English dictionaries only list US and UK words, and possibly Australia. They usually are far from international in scope. Imagine using this dictionary to support something in the medical field. A dictionary definition is a far, far weaker source than a peer-reviewed journal article with all its methodologies and results laid out. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 17:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:ENGVAR. Calidum 02:39, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
• Support per WP:ENGVAR Kosher Salt is unknown here in Europe. A religious sounding American term for a cooking ingredient seems US centric. Lexlex (talk) 04:17, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Where are you from? Where are the other editors from? How do you know it's only referred to as "kitchen salt" outside of America, and what distinction do you even place between table salt and kitchen salt? Are we going to have to create a survey to see if more countries call it kosher salt or kitchen salt? I doubt the data exists, and I doubt there's any strong data showing one term's use over the other. Provide some evidence before just saying "I've never heard of this before!" ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 04:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I am in Germany, other people saying similar things in comments above seem to be from Australia & England. In Europe this product is not sold in stores as "Kosher Salt" - you will get a blank stare asking for it and told to maybe go to an ethnic food store. It's sold as kitchen salt, coarse salt, or cooking salt. Generally it seems "Table salt" is the fine grained stuff with iodine etc, "Kitchen salt" is the large grained stuff without additives. Please Note: I am not the one making the move request, but came here initially because I was also very confused as to why such a basic cooking product has a) a religious sounding name in Wikipedia; and b) the article says the name is _not_ what the product is called within the religion. It's confusing. Lexlex (talk) 06:43, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

We also can see from supermarket websites in UK India Australia Ireland that this is an Americanism. In ictu oculi (talk)

The first evidence is anecdotal, the second is simply cherry picking and also not a sufficient methodology to prove use of the term worldwide. I'll throw out both. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 12:57, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

So does that mean you would change your vote if it could be substantiated that the term 'Kosher Salt' is not used outside of the US? If so, would you accept supermarket catalogs/websites? Lexlex (talk) 16:15, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Maybe I would if there were an alternative that's not completely vague. And there is no such thing. And barely, I bet there are better sources than supermarket catalogs, but it'd be better than any evidence so far mentioned in this RM, so please! ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 17:11, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, and suggest Coarse salt - Naturally descriptive title, clearly delineates from other salts in a kitchen, and has a long history of usage per Google Ngram which is balanced across regions per MOS:COMMONALITY. -- Netoholic @ 09:31, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Consider the product we're discussing intentionally lacks additives such as iodine or fluoride and is intended for cooking applications. Coarse salt does not mean edible or additive free, and could also refer to salt for driveways in the winter - this will throw off any ngram search as there is no way to know the use or meaning. See the British English Google ngram here and the results are very different. The problem with both 'coarse salt' and 'cooking salt' is they can mean use for other applications (e.g. any coarse salt or any salt used in cooking), whereas 'Kitchen salt' refers specifically to coarse cooking salt without additives and is the name on the box in other countries in lieu of Kosher salt. Lexlex (talk) 10:48, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Your Ngram link left off coarse salt, here is a fix which shows coarse salt way ahead of the others. If you think people will confuse it for driveway salt, we can use a hatnote, but this is the best alternative suggested so far. --Netoholic @ 17:55, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

You're correct, but my point was the ngram can't tell the context of 'coarse salt' - it could mean anything: driveways, ice cream freezing, etc. and might be inedible and/or contain additives. Therefore it's not really a reliable measure of use in this context. However 'Kitchen salt' is this specific product, edible, etc. and is clearly the longest used term by a significant margin. Lexlex (talk) 18:46, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose. Little known inside North America. Seriously, why is the fact that a term is primarily North American of any relevance? The United States and Canada together contain a lot of English speakers. In fact, the US alone contains a majority of native anglophones (per our article). Also, my box says sel cacher on the French side, which is not an Americanism. Srnec (talk) 01:17, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

OK but the term is _unknown_ outside of North America and the suggested replacement is not only better known world-wide, it has been in use almost 100 years longer per: this Google ngram. Your salt box is also sold in Canada and the Official Language Act (Quebec) requires exact translation on all products, so many US manufactures make it their standard box design to save money. Lexlex (talk) 05:46, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

I am Canadian. Srnec (talk) 01:10, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

• "why is the fact that a term is primarily North American of any relevance?" — because of Wikipedia:COMMONALITY "Prefer vocabulary common to all varieties of English. Insisting on a single term or a single usage as the only correct option does not serve the purposes of an international encyclopedia."

• I address this below. Srnec (talk) 01:10, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose "Kitchen" salt? Never heard of that term in the United States. I think kosher salt is still a good title._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 07:55, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

• Support Moving to Coarse salt may be a good option too. --Comedora (talk) 05:04, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose a move to coarse salt. Coarse salt is a descriptive that also includes pickling salt and some sea salts and is this too imprecise for this topic. Current title is fine per WP:ENGVAR; a move to kitchen salt would just reverse the ENGVAR. —  AjaxSmack  21:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Commentary

Perhaps the discussion should be broader than the binary choice "kosher salt" vs "kitchen salt"; I don't know what the approved procedure is for changing the parameters of an ongoing discussion. I'm not wedded to the name "kitchen salt"; Netoholic prefers "coarse salt"; that or "cooking salt" are OK by me. I don't know whether Ɱ has any opinion on these others from the article...

Coarse edible salt is also known as kitchen salt, cooking salt, flake salt, rock salt and kashering salt

...of which coarse salt, kitchen salt, cooking salt, and Kashering Salt redirect here whereas flake salt and rock salt are separate articles with hatnotes here. (To me "flake salt" is more specific than "kitchen/cooking/coarse salt"; the kosher salt in the article image looks coarse but not flaky.) jnestorius^(talk) 09:55, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

For the past 9 years (see here), the article has always been at "Kosher salt" or some variation. That's strong passive consensus over time. If it ain't broke why fix it? ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 13:02, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

The idea that articles become correct over time simply because no one noticed errors is one with which I am unfamiliar—can you cite where this idea is supported or used? Lexlex (talk) 14:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

1. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
2. in any case, there is evidence on this talk page going back to 2006 of users having difficulty with the term "kosher".

jnestorius^(talk) 09:34, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

There are several possible reasons for objecting; I'm not sure which position different objectors hold: @Srnec:,@Calidum:, @Ɱ: I would be grateful if you could say whether any of these 4 options expresses your view:

1. The term "kosher salt" is well-known outside the US; the fact that a few Wikipedians have never heard of it can be ignored.
2. The term "kosher salt" is not well-known outside the US because the thing so named is not well-known outside the US; it is appropriate for a US concept to have a US name
3. The term "kosher salt" is not well-known outside the US, but the alternative names used outside the US are not well-known inside the US, or have different meanings; therefore WP:COMMONALITY does not apply and MOS:STYLERET does
4. Something else

jnestorius^(talk) 09:34, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

4. For me, if you Google images of "kosher salt", they almost all have the word "Coarse" right by the name on the box. Coarse salt as a term is descriptive of the subject (WP:NAMINGCRITERIA- Natural, Recognizable), WP:CONSISTENT with other salt articles which use descriptive terms for their form vs. their usage, WP:PRECISE enough to work, and known in all regions (WP:COMMONALITY), . -- Netoholic @ 10:01, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Coarse salt which is edible without additives is not conveyed by this term. Lexlex (talk) 11:12, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Where is it stated that it needs to? --Netoholic @ 17:04, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

In the article lead - ...edible course salt without common additives such as iodine, etc... The lack of bitter tasting additives is why this salt it's used in the kitchen instead of iodized table salt, especially in the greater amounts used in preparation, as it would impart a bitter flavor. Lexlex (talk) 19:11, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

And neither "kosher" nor "kitchen salt" communicates that either. I don't see the point of this. We name articles by what they are called, not by what we think the name needs to communicate. If we tried to, then every article name would be as long as the lead section. -- Netoholic @ 19:15, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

#3 for me. I believe the term "kitchen salt" is as unknown in the US as "kosher salt" elsewhere. No evidence has been provided to show otherwise and the Ngrams linked suggest I am probably right. Srnec (talk) 01:10, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose As an ENGVAR case. If this was a situation where there was a shared, commonly used term across varieties of English that refers to this subject, I would support, but kitchen salt is not that.--Yaksar (let's chat) 17:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

more confused than ever

ok, after reading the article and looking at this page I'm more confused than ever. the options seem to run from "nothing inherently kosher, just used in koshering process" to "refers to process to guarantee nothing unkosher is added" to "is approved by a religious body". Taking this last point first, is there actually a certification process? On what grounds? Which rabbinic union? If not, then is this just a marketing ploy? And if not, then is the second point moot? If the term is actually used ambivalently, then that could be clearly stated in the article. There's nothing wrong with ambiguity, if it's in the topic itself, not the article.Richardson mcphillips (talk) 18:29, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Salt is inherently Kosher so no certification process is needed. However the need to cite religious doctrine to clarify a Wikipedia article name choice seems ridiculous.Lexlex (talk) 14:17, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm guessing that America offers several brands of the stuff, so I would guess it's definitely not marketing. As extensively discussed above, it's ENGVAR. In the UK kosher world, this stuff is known as "koshering salt", which has no ambiguity to it. Presumably the shorter version known in the States is a manifestation of the American preference for shortening/simplifying words. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:14, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

As the article says Kosher Salt is just what it's called in the US, because of it's association with the process of koshering meat. Outside of the US it's simply known as kitchen salt or coarse salt and presumably only orthodox Jews worry about whether or not it's actually kosher. As you can see from the talk page there's been a lot of debate about using a name only known in one country, but since it doesn't seem to have a special name anywhere else in the world there isn't a clear alternative. If there is an organisation that certifies salt as being kosher in the USA that could probably be mentioned instead of the generic "approved by a religious body". But for anyone who isn't Jewish and is outside of the USA all you need to know is it's an unusual name for kitchen salt. Danikat (talk) 18:47, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Defining characteristic

Currently the short description reads "Coarse additive-free edible salt", and the first sentence makes the lack of additives a primary characteristic of kosher salt. In what way does the lack of additives distinguish kosher salt from any other non-table salt? None of the references support this, nor does the article body. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 13:48, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

It is the go-to product when cooks need a pure, unflavored salt. Added four references supporting this, please advise if not satisfactory. Lexlex (talk) 18:31, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Usage

This section claims that kosher salt is used because it has "a purer flavor due to the lack of metallic or bitter-tasting additives such as iodine, fluoride or dextrose, it is often used in the kitchen instead of additive-containing table salt". It links to 50 year old text which mentions tests without elaborating how these tests were performed. The WHO source is not identifiable as the bulletin number is missing. I removed a third source as it does not support any of these claims. Also, who adds sugar (dextrose) into salt and for what purpose?There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 00:59, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Dextrose is put into iodized salt to stabilize the iodide. You can look it up. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 18:14, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Dextrose is sweet and has no metallic taste whatsoever. It certainly not a common ingredient in iodised salt everywhere. An impact on taste cannot be expected in such concentrations cannot be expected and glucose concentration of any food that is to be cooked is most likely much higher than what is added in the salt. And of course the claim that a few milligrams of any of the other additives have a noticeable effect on cooked food is already refuted in one of the sources given. There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 23:23, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I'd like to see your source that dextrose is "not a common ingredient in iodised salt". What does iodized salt use for stabilization in the absence of dextrose? I've seen papers suggesting other compounds have been unsuccessfully tested. (The sodium iodide will otherwise break down into molecular iodine; more than half of it will be gone in three years.) --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:48, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

First of all without the word "everywhere" you're twisting what I said. I didn't say it was not a common ingredient. An antioxidant is not required with iodates as they are more stable. The iodised salt I have at home contains potassium iodate and no glucose. British salt standard iodised salt contains potassium iodate and again no glucose. There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 18:36, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

That not only sodium iodide is used is obvious btw from iodised salt related WP pages. Some of it may not be properly sourced and some sources e.g. links to saltinstitute.org are defunct, yes, but definitely in plain sight. There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 19:06, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Making definitive claims on taste, meanings, topic relevance, etc. without references is in fact WP:Original Research. Lexlex (talk) 23:33, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

What are you trying to say? Are you asking for a reference that glucose is sweet or for a reference that glucose does not taste metallic? Or are you saying that the claim in the article is original research? There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 13:01, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

The WHO reference would be better as https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3209728/ which says some people in rural north Viet Nam give taste as one of several reasons for not using iodised salt, but this does not demonstrate that they could in fact taste a difference; the report actually concentrates on the negative health consequences of non-iodised salt use. A Unicef sponsored study https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.522.6467&rep=rep1&type=pdf failed to confirm that people who claimed they could spot a taste difference in salt used in cooking salt actually could even when the iodine content was quadrupled. So the asserted difference is a claim not a fact.20:41, 18 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:148A:9B01:A971:1736:AAE3:2686 (talk)

Rather than claiming the subjective taste of the salt as a result of additives, the taste of the additives themselves is referenced which is prima facie. Good?Lexlex (talk) 16:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Cleaning

I removed this section from the article. A similar section already exists in sodium chloride and the cleaning capacities of salt are not specific to kosher salt. There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 02:58, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

@Lexlex:Please explain why you reverted my edit. You seem to claim that the source provides evidence for the general use of "kosher salt" as a cleaning product for cookware. Frankly, I don't see such claim in the source. The author of the cited article simply says that he uses kosher salt for cleaning. The cleaning action is based on the fact that it is salt. He does not make any claims specifically related to this type of salt, neither does he claim that kosher salt is frequently used for this specific purpose. Besides that, the source is unacceptable according per WP:SPONSORED. How far away from the topic do we want to go here? I can provide some nice sources where kosher salt is used in Christmas decorations. There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 09:45, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

I've added a template to the section, as my removal was undone and I still believe it is obvious this section is harmful to the article and should be removed immediately.

While it is theoretically possible to fix some of these problems, I believe that that would require a reliable source that explains a specific connection to this particular type of salt. However, the reason why so many claims are unverified is not simply because no one has bothered to do so but because it is not possible. Other sources are likely howto instructions as well, based on choice and habits of the author. The only fact they help establish is that "salt" and not "kosher salt" is used for cleaning. To maintain neutrality one would at least have to add that to the section which would then instantly make it redundant. There-is-life-on-mars (talk) 17:27, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

The article is about kitchen salt which has a common use in the kitchen as a food-safe, water-soluble, coarse material to clean cookware. The section is on-topic, well referenced, and at two sentences long, not undue. None of the points posted above apply. Lexlex (talk) 21:43, 22 July 2020 (UTC)