Talk:Kragujevac massacre/Archive 1

Archive 1

Nazi Germans

Could I canvas opinion here for accuracy's sake - although I guess this question has been posed before. It concerns the first line "by Nazi German soldiers" which I think is misleading and/or inaccurate.

Firstly - is it not more accurate to say German forces of the Third Reich or German forces of Nazi Germany, or similar? I have never been comfortable with any phrase that suggests every German was a Nazi.

Secondly - it is quite clear that collaborationist Serb units played a significant role in the atrocity, so could we not add "and collaborationist Serb police units" or similar?

Simply a question of accuracy - nothing more.

Mungo Shuntbox (talk) 07:27, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Mungo: The entire German nation (willingly or not) was invested and included into war effort. Soldiers of Nazi Germany were German soldiers, fulfilling orders of their nation. German soliders in WW II were not some sect or militant movement, that only included nazis - every German was part of the war machine. Stating otherwise is apologetic and disregard towards the nature of the crime and disregard towards fate of those who were killed and executed on the premise that a life of a Serb was less valuable than a life of a German. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.33.209.167 (talk) 16:38, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, Montenegran IP, but that's just utter rubbish. Not every German was involved in the "war machine" as you call it - a quick example were the German communists. The German Resistance movement - while not all that large - existed and many people went to the gallows for opposing National Socialism in their country. You need to read a few history books.50.111.59.83 (talk) 19:54, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

High school students?

Right now, the intro paragraph states "All males from the town between the ages of sixteen and sixty were assembled by German troops and members of the collaborationist Serbian Volunteer Command (SDK) and Serbian State Guard (SDS), including high school students, and the victims were selected from amongst them." This suggests that the SDK and SDS included high school students, which may be true, but I suspect this phrase was intended to describe the victims. Can anyone provide some clarification on this point? Jfmantis (talk) 06:26, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

I think including the derivative of them being highschool student give better picture then naming the age rangeRockinplayer (talk) 00:50, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Glenny

Glenny's The Balkans has a good description of the Partisan-Chetnik action that provoked the massacre. This part of the article is rather thin. I'm afraid I don't have access to the book, so PM, I'll leave it to you. 23 editor (talk) 17:04, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

I have a copy of the -1999 version, but it varies dramatically from the sources used already (and lacks details). It implies that the German casualties were from the Landesschutzen company, whereas the sources used in the article say that the casualties were from the responding battalion and were incurred as it advanced towards Gornji Milanovac. That is a pretty big difference in detail. That bit of Glenny isn't footnoted, so we have no idea where he got this information from. I'm not a huge fan of using Glenny because his popular history style means that important details are left out, and he compensates with plenty of descriptive narrative. I'll see if I can prise anything useful out of him. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:57, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Any way to reconcile the two? Perhaps there is another source that describes the events in detail but corresponds with the NMT account. The article won't be comprehensive as things stand, IMO. 23 editor (talk) 04:34, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

I suppose both versions could be detailed, but I'm not sure that the detail of the incident that led to the massacre is actually all that important, other than the fact that 10 were killed and 26 wounded, because that is what led to the 2,300 victims. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:40, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

I've added both versions now, let me know what you think? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:02, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

That will work for now. I'll snoop around for a detailed account with footnotes, preferably by a Holocaust historian. 23 editor (talk) 05:25, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

West

@Peacemaker67: Judging from your work on Tito, you seem to have a hard copy of West's book. Mind adding the page number for the info I've added? Cheers, 23 editor (talk) 17:42, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't, but I have a loan copy pending. I've been using Google Books thus far. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:11, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Manoschek

This is what I was looking for . A detailed account by a Holocaust scholar. Unfortunately, my German is a bit rusty. @Peacemaker67: Sprechen Sie Deutsche? If not, maybe our German-speaking friends at WP:MILHIST can help? 23 editor (talk) 21:42, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

nur ein wenig... I'll take a look. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:42, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

I've got a bit from it, but it seems to generally reflect what is in the other sources, and translating the German hurts my brain... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:59, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Obviously better with Manoschek, but there is a lot of overlap between the sources and the section comes across as very repetitive. I imagine it will come up during the GA review, but I would do away with "according to person x, this happened...". If two or three sources say the same thing, I would double-cite or triple-cite that particular assertion since everyone is in agreement. If the sources contradict each other, only then would I attribute the claim to a particular author. 23 editor (talk) 20:08, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Source

Would Lexikon der Wehrmacht be considered RS? I can't find anything more reliable to cite Hoffmann's fate. 23 editor (talk) 22:16, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. It is essentially a fanboi site. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:03, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Kraljevo

Just a heads-up. The GA reviewer is going to be scratching their head when they get to the aftermath section, and the Kraljevo executions and Hoffmann are mentioned. I'd recommend that this content be restored. 23 editor (talk) 18:04, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

I just don't see how it is relevant. Yes it occurred in the same timeframe, and was done by the Wehrmacht, but including it in the main body is mission creep, except as a See also. I'd be happy if it was mentioned in the Aftermath section, but it needs to stand alone there, not be intermixed in with the events leading up to and including the Kragujevac massacre. That material really belongs in the Kraljevo massacre article, not here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:14, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

No doubt the killings are linked, not only for being the most heinous of the German reprisal shootings, but also in how they affected the Yugoslav resistance and subsequent German policy. Tomasevich, Pavlowitch and Glenny mention them in the same breath because they are so intertwined and the legacy section is structured with both in mind precisely for this reason. 23 editor (talk) 00:31, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

But Kraljevo isn't the subject here, while those authors are dealing with the overall subject of Wehrmacht reprisals in Serbia. Adding it in to the body just muddies the waters regarding Kragujevac. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:34, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Background

This section is unnecessary long, keeps repeating the content of the (linked in) Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia in many aspects. Needs serious trimming!--bez potpisa (talk) 19:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

As I pointed out elsewhere, you have less than 100 edits, whereas the editors that have developed this article have FAs, GAs etc to their names. Clearly you have a lot to learn about the construction of articles on complex subjects. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:06, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Range

Over at Gudovac, another editor found it useful to remove the death toll of 184–196 killed, and simply state that it was "around 190", which is the average of the two figures. Would this be a good idea here (i.e. about 2,786 killed)? 23 editor (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I certainly prefer to keep it exact because of the past inflated figures and potential for edit-warring. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:42, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I think Peacemaker67 has that right. That aside, per the example of "around 190", I think "nearly 2,800" might be acceptable in the text, but for the fact that it is clearly correct to state the two varying figures there. In light of that, I think it is also correct to give the two figures as a range in the infobox, and that a simplified number there might be unstable for the reasons Peacemaker67 gives. Giving the precise average of the two figures would confuse me as a reader and, I think, be WP:SYNTHESIS, although I'm not sure that's what you were really suggesting. HTH. Nortonius (talk) 13:03, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

[1] Coords; thought they were missing and found these {{coord|44|00|08|N|20|55|04|E|type:event_dim:10km|display=inline,title}} but I think they're for a different place. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 07:14, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

German soldier shot for refusing to participate

The articles states "One German soldier was shot for refusing to participate in the killings.[44]" As far as I can see this refers to the Josef Schulz Myth, which has been dismissed as a legend in the 90s according to the article about it (link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Schulz and also http://www.taz.de/Wehrmachtslegende-in-Serbien/!5115561/ )

I am not familiar with the procedure here but if no one objects, I suggest removing the sentence from the main article or at least adding that the reports about a german soldier being shot for refusing to participate are highly disputed and found to be likely false . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.253.17.130 (talk) 21:17, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

The act of insubordination you are referring to appears to have taken place in July 1941. The Kragujevac massacre took place in October of that year. 23 editor (talk) 22:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

We also don't use WP as a source, per WP:CIRCULAR. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:01, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Fair points. I find it strange however, that I can't find any german speaking source, that even mentions this. Googling for Kragujevac and Befehlsverweigerung (german for insubordination) for example only yields results that talk about the Joseph-Schulz-Myth, because it there is a Joseph Schulz monument in Kragujevac (like the link to taz.de which I provided above, which is an interview with the author of the book "Heldensuche - Die Geschichte des Soldaten der nicht töten wollte" - "searching a hero - the story of a soldier who didn't want to kill" https://www.hanser-literaturverlage.de/buch/heldensuche/978-3-552-05531-5/). On the other hand there are multiple interviews with historians / articles online, who clearly state, that there isn't a single proven case where a Wehrmacht or SS member was executed for refusing to participate in war crimes (such as this recent welt.de article https://www.welt.de/geschichte/zweiter-weltkrieg/article144067359/Hatten-SS-Mitglieder-damals-wirklich-keine-Wahl.html or this older dossier of the German Federal Agency for Political Education - bpb http://www.bpb.de/politik/extremismus/rechtsextremismus/41335/argumente-gegen-rechte-vorurteile?p=all).

From the bpb dossier:

Befehlsnotstand

Im Strafrecht gilt die Notstandsvorschrift, nach der Straffreiheit garantiert ist, wenn Taten unter Druck unausweichlicher Gefahr für Leib und Leben begangen wurden.

In Prozessen wegen nationalsozialistischer Gewaltverbrechen haben die Angeklagten daher immer wieder vorgebracht, sie hätten nur Befehle ausgeführt, deren Verweigerung mit dem Tod oder mindestens der Einweisung in ein Konzentrationslager bedroht gewesen sei. Diese Behauptung eines so genannten Befehlsnotstandes hat bisher in keinem einzigen Fall der Nachprüfung standgehalten. Es hat bei Befehlsverweigerung niemals Gefahr für Leib und Leben bestanden. Kein Soldat oder Polizist, kein Funktionär des NS-Staates, kein KZ-Wächter wurde gegen seinen eigenen Willen zu verbrecherischen Handlungen gezwungen.

Auch bei der SS wurden Angehörige von Einheiten, die sich weigerten, zum Beispiel an völkerrechtswidrigen Erschießungsaktionen teilzunehmen, allenfalls versetzt, aber niemals zum Tod verurteilt, standrechtlich oder ohne Urteil erschossen. Die "Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen zur Aufklärung von NS-Verbrechen" in Ludwigsburg hat nach sorgfältiger Prüfung festgestellt, dass den Gerichten kein einziger Fall vorgelegt wurde, in dem ein "Befehlsnotstand" gegeben war.

Slightly improved Google Translation:

command emergency

In criminal law, the emergency rule applies, according to which impunity is guaranteed, if acts were commited under pressure of inevitable danger for life and limb.

In trials of national socialist crimes, the defendants have therefore repeatedly argued that they had only executed orders whose denial had been threatened with death or at least to be placed in a concentration camp. This assertion of a so-called command emergency has so far not stood the test in any single case. There has never been a danger to life or limb in the case of insubordination. No soldier or policeman, no official of the Nazi state, no concentration camp guard was forced to commit crimes against his own will.

In the case of the SS, members of units who refused to participate, for example, in executions in violation of international law, were, at best, transferred, but never sentenced to death, or shot dead without judgment. The "Central Office of the Landesjustizverwaltungen for the Enlightenment of Nazi Crimes" in Ludwigsburg has determined after careful examination that the courts were not presented with a single case in which there was a "command emergency".

I wonder if anyone has access to the source for the claim that a german soldier was executed at Kragujevac. My universities library cannot provide me with the book, not even as an interlibrary loan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.253.17.130 (talk) 07:48, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

West was a reputable journalist, and his Tito and the Rise and Fall of Yugoslavia is a positively-reviewed and reliable source on the broad scope of Yugoslavia from WWI to Tito's death in 1980. I have had a copy of the book from the library in the past and have used it in the Tito article, but 23 editor added that material and may have a copy to hand. I have collaborated with 23 editor on several FAs, including this one, and have no reason to doubt that information is in the book in question. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:56, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

I found an online preview at amazon. On page 112 he states "On 20 October the entire male population of the town was rounded up and, in accordance with Hitler's decree, about 7,000 were shot, among them hundreds of schoolboys and one German soldier who had refused to server in a firing squad." However I cannot find a primary source for this in the online preview. The Information Portal to European sites of remembrance, which is listed as a source on the german wikipedia, doesn't mention an executed german soldier either. However, I noticed that West talks about 7,000 victims in Kragujevac. The other texts I found report about roughly 2,300 victims in Kragujevac and about 400 more in the surrounding villages (which also roughly fits the number of 2,778–2,794 death stated in Kragujevac_massacre). Where does this large discrepancy come from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.253.17.130 (talk) 08:54, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

We don't drill down into the primary sources to challenge reliable secondary sources. We compare and contrast the secondary sources where they differ, that is a basic tenet of WP. Please read the article, the issue of the numbers killed and the range of estimates and how it developed over time is fulsomely addressed there. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Okay. Sorry, as I said before I am not familiar with the usual procedures here at wikipedia. So are the links I provided enough to challenge Wests unsupported claim that a german soldier was shot at Kragujevac so it can be removed? Or at least rephrase the sentence so it doesn't look like it is an undisputed fact, when there are numerous reports that such a thing didn't occur at all during the war? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.44.23.9 (talk) 10:59, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

No, unfortunately I don't have West's book on hand. As with most books that aren't fully available on Google (i.e. Milazzo, Pavlowitch), I got the relevant passage through Google Books' snippet view feature. 23 editor (talk) 14:11, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

It isn't an unsupported claim. It is material from a reliable source. I can't see where there are any reliable sources that challenge this specific assertion. The numerous reports you refer to aren't linked here for us to look at, and don't relate to Kragujevac specifically in any case. I seriously question whether anyone is able to make a realistic claim that it never occurred anywhere in the whole war. Many German records were destroyed. Even if we were to include the fact that some sources query it, we wouldn't remove the material, as it is from a reliable source, we would compare and contrast it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:52, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

West does not cite an sources for his claim so it is unsupported. And given that he indiscriminately uses the the inflated death count, again without citing any sources, in a book released in 1995, when the more accurate numbers where already known (or he should have at least known, that the numbers are disputed), I doubt that his book should be considered a reliable source in this case. I already provided links to some reports, including the one from bpb which I even translated for you. The bpb report directly states "There has never been a danger to life or limb in the case of insubordination." in the context of not wanting to commit war crimes. I also provided a link to the memorial site for the Kragujevac massacre, which doesn't mention a german soldier as a victim. In general there doesn't seem to be any mention of a german soldier being shot at Kragujevac beside Wests book at all. Then there is the book "Heldensuche", which covers the topic of the myth that a Wehrmacht soldier was shot in the Balkans for refusing to shoot civilians (for which I provided a link to an interview with the author). Both the bpb report (2006) and the book Heldensuche (2011) are newer than Wests book. Incidentally the issue of whether Wehrmacht or SS members would've risked their lives if they refused to participate in warcrimes has been discussed recently in germany due to the Oskar Gröning trial (thereto I linked the article at welt.de, which also states that there not a single proven case where a SS member was executed due to such insubordination and that, to the contrary, that members of murder units, such as the Polizeibatallion 101, were explicitly not punished for not taking part in executions). If there was any substance to Wests claim, I am quite certain, that it would've come up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.253.17.130 (talk) 11:03, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

You misunderstand what I am saying about West. He is a reliable source for WP, per WP:RS. And I'm afraid that your claim about West's use of the figures is just wrong. In 1995, many sources still advanced the higher figures, it was not until the mid 2000s that the lower figure was agreed, that is clear in the article. One of those sources you've linked to clearly refers to SS men, nor Wehrmacht troops, and the reliability of the other (taz?) isn't clear to me. However, if you are claiming that this is an extraordinary claim, which I'm not sure you have shown it is, then we would want a reliable source that says that there is no evidence that any German serviceman or policeman was ever shot for not carrying out his orders, and then we would contrast West's statement with that statement. I'm not seeing where such a claim is being made, so if you could clarify, that would be helpful. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:01, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

I concede that no source is perfect, IP. It is, of course, possible that West was referring to the Schultz case but mixed it up with what transpired in Kragujevac. I've seen similar mix-ups in some of the other works, such as Tomasevich 1969, where he states that Serbian airplane factory workers were shot in Kragujevac when this actually occurred in Kraljevo. This was corrected through the use of other sources. 23 editor (talk) 14:54, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks again for the answers so far. I registered to make this discussion easier :). I have electronic access to the "Heldensuche" book at my university and I'll check, if the Kragujevac massacre is mentioned there in detail, despite the book being about the Schulz myth (according to the TAZ interview the author was in Kragujevac and was shown a Schulz memorial there). However, if this is a simple mistake by West, I doubt that I will find any wikipedia compatible sources, stating that "no german soldier was shot there". One could ask at the site of remembrance, if they heard of such a case, but that wouldn't count as a source, unless they (for example) published an article about it. Right? Additionally I found this reddit post about the issue: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3ddnp2/is_there_any_evidence_where_during_the_third/?st=j64ngunw&sh=661f7aa6, which provides this quote from Ordinary men: "Quite simply, in the past forty-five years no defense attorney or defendant in any of the hundreds of postwar trials has been able to document a single case in which refusal to obey an order to kill unarmed civilians resulted in the allegedly inevitable dire punishment. [Ordinary men, p. 170]". The book is available at my university, so I can check whether this paragraph refers to both the Wehrmacht and SS or explicitly only the SS (I think the Polizeibataillon 101 was under the authority of the SS), but it seems like a general statement to me. KaWuppi (talk) 07:12, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Will wait for confirmation once you've looked at the book. The Orpo Police Battalions, like 101 (and 64 in the German occupied territory of Serbia), were often subordinated to the Einsatzgruppen commanders and/or SS and Police Leaders, who reported to Himmler, so the Orpo were subordinated to the SS, but not actually SS themselves. However, this massacre was carried out by a German Army occupation division, not the Orpo. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:34, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Here is the complete quote and the paragraph before it:
(Begin Quote) Among the perpetrators, of course, orders have traditionally been the most frequently cited explanation for their own behavior. The authoritarian political culture of the Nazi dictatorship, savagely intolerant of overt dissent, along with the standard military necessity of obedience to orders and ruthless enforcement of discipline, created a situation in which individuals had no choise. Orders were orders, and no one in suhc a political climate could be expected to disobey them, they insisted. Disobedience surely meant the concentration camp if not immediate execution, possibly for their families as well. The perpetrators had found themselves in a situation of impossible "duress" and therefore could not be held responsible for their actions. Such, at least, is what defendants said in traial after trial in postwar Germany.
There is a general problem with this explanation, however. Qutie simply, in the past forty-five years no defense attorney or defendant in any of the hundreds of postwar trials has been able to document a single case in which refusal to obey and order to kill unarmed civilians resulted in the allegedly inevitable dire punishment.19 The punishment or censure that occasionally did result from such disobedience was never commensurate with the gravity of the crimes the men had been asked to commit. (End Quote)
The source nr 19 is "Herbert Jäger, Verbrechen unter totalitärer Herrschaft (Frankfurt, 1982), 81-82, 95-122, 158-60", which is somewhat old (first issue 1967, reissued in 1982) but seems to be quite relyable (sourced 95 times according to google scholar).
There is actually an online preview of the ordinary men available as well (Link). The page of Quote is 170 (just search for "forty-five years"), the page of the source is 251 KaWuppi (talk) 13:29, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

ISBN is wrong

The isbn 978-0-7867-0202-2 in the article belongs to a different book than the one mentioned in the article. NotYourFathersOldsmobile (talk) 06:51, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:21, 21 October 2017 (UTC)