Talk:Kris Jenner/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

i remember seeing e!true hollywood story on the kardashian family and kris stating that her father was of iranian descent. perhaps this is a relevant fact to include. thanks.Realityfan2010 (talk) 21:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Born in San Diego, and raised in both Oxnard and San Diego.....to an Engineer father, and with a businessman step-father ?........then how come I've read that Kris was born and grew up in Beverly Hills, and that her father was a wealthy attorney ?........Gail Noon, San Pedro, CA.

Untitled

The article has just started. I am adding more to it right now. Do not delete it. Themenace1990 (talk) 21:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)themenace1990Themenace1990 (talk) 21:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll nominate it for deletion. It's not noteworthy. As much as some people on here want Wikipedia to be a storage facility for all information known to man, it just isn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.87.107.66 (talk) 19:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Needs some cleanup and more refs, could be noteworthy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.171.53 (talk) 07:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Name

The article is titled "Kris Jenner", but the article itself only uses "Kristen Mary Houghton". Are they the same person? Is "Kris Jenner" a nickname, a pseudonym, a character, or what? This should be explained in the article. -kotra (talk) 21:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Kristen Mary Houghton is her birth name. She married once becoming Kris Kardashian, then divorced and remaried as Kris Jenner.Tarheelz123 (talk) 18:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Ethnicity?

there's conflicting stories here. Kim in an Armanian interview said Kris was English but others say dutch and something else? "Armanian" - wonderful! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.183.190.78 (talk) 04:20, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Kris is not the one who is Armenian-it was Robert Kardashian who was Armenian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.127.106 (talk) 16:43, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Lawsuit,

Hi guys! I'm reading Kris Jenner's Wiki page, and there is no mention in the article about a lawsuit pending against her. I think this is something very important to mention.

To make a long story short, she was a spokesperson for an anti-aging product, but was filmed getting a face lift on her lower chin/neck area in one of the shows they're in. The company is suing her on the grounds that she breached her contract.

Kris Jenner Lawsuit

I believe this is definitely worth mentioning in her article. It's very important, considering what she does for a living.

--99.108.248.27 (talk) 04:56, 12 February 2012 (UTC)Hypo-Allergenic Jin kris humpfries

I don't believe TMZ is a good source though. Really late. 108.93.72.117 (talk) 05:22, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, a section on a single lawsuit seems pointless, but there are other suits that could be included...

http://www.eonline.com/news/533662/kardashians-settle-lawsuit-against-robert-kardashian-sr-s-widow-over-diary-and-photo-leak

Since the above one was settled and the one in question is from 2012, maybe we can find a settlement or resolution source for that one as well. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 19:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 27 April 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 21:12, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

---

Kris Jenner → Kris Houghton – Kris and Bruce are divorced, his first second name is back in use, please, move to Kris Houghton, please. 186.159.113.234 (talk) 20:10, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - Subject is primarily known by Jenner given the popularity of her television appearances over the last 5-7 years. Additionally, the subject is also well know as a Kardashian given the media attention received by her deceased husband due to the O.J. Simpson case. This move makes no sense. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 21:20, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Scalhotrod. Kris Jenner is her common name. Melonkelon (talk) 02:41, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per above and per WP:COMMONNAME. –Davey2010^Talk 02:44, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bruce Jenner

Even if the article on Mr. Jenner is now called "Caitlyn Jenner", he should still be referred to as "Bruce" in the context of his marriage to Kris, as that is the name he went by at the time. Bobby Martnen (talk) 23:13, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Bobby Martnen and others, this matter is being discussed at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 121#MOS:IDENTITY clarification. A WP:Permalink for that discussion is here. Flyer22 (talk) 04:58, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

He was "Bruce" when married to Kris Jenner, so I see no reason to introduce content that will likely lead to confusion regarding both subjects. The redirect at Bruce Jenner points to the new article location for Caitlyn, so there should be no issue as to how its listed in this article. --Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 17:21, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Agree He should be referred to as Bruce.--88.104.136.143 (talk) 20:14, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

You mean, the rule should not be:

Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary).

...but instead, be:

Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect the gender used by most reliable sources to refer to the person at the appropriate phase of that person's life; pronouns may shift appropriately. Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary). Georgia guy (talk) 18:31, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Abused by Bruce/Caitlyn

The information is here

• http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/kris-jenner-ignores-caitlyns-vanity-5805833#rlabs=1

She was never married to Caitlyn??

Now, do people get married to people or to their names?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:07, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Georgia, please contribute to the discussion above at #Bruce Jenner in order to help find a consensus, rather than creating a new section here every time the subject of Kris Jenner's former husband comes up in a way with which you disagree. Thanks. General Ization ^Talk 18:24, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

This is saying...

...and her second husband was Olympic star and TV celebrity Bruce Jenner... Referring to Jenner as a husband implies that Jenner actually was a man, not a pre-operative trans woman, at that time. Any way to re-word this?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Caitlyn Jenner was legally male at the time of their marriage in the 90's, and up until their divorce earlier this year. As confusing as it may be, this meant that Caitlyn (then Bruce), while almost certainly identifying as female at the time of their divorce, but perhaps not at the time of their marriage, was legally the husband and not wife of Kris. MB298 (talk) 01:02, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

better picture available?

white on white background isn't that good. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:42, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

We either have this or the image from 2010, shown further down in her article. There may be some images on Flickr that would work, however I do have some doubts about their copyright status. MB298 (talk) 01:07, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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AP Style Guide

Regardless of anyone's personal opinion on the issue, here's how the AP Style guide regulates reporting for trans individuals "Transgender: Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics of the opposite sex or present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth. If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly." Under this premise, Caitlyn Jenner should be readily identified and referred to by her currently preferred pronouns and self-identity. Maybe the parenthetical statement should say "formerly referred to as Bruce" if anything, which is still not even necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nfdgoisn (talk • contribs) 04:43, 29 January 2016‎ (UTC)

References

@Nfdgoisn: Firstly, please always add new discussions below old discussions, and remember to sign your comments. Secondly, the AP Style Guide is irrelevant on Wikipedia. The Wikipedia Manual of Style is the correct guide to follow. You can read about this particular situation at MOS:IDENTITY. I have reverted your change for now, as the article's wording has been fairly stable for a while. The article has comments which clearly state that it should not be changed without prior discussion here. Discussion consists of more than posting something which refers to the wrong style guide, then making the change 5 minutes later. Please allow time for people to respond to the discussion. I fully support Caitlyn's right to self-identify, and her wishes in that regard are widely supported by Wikipedia policy. The particular content here is a narrow case, and needs special consideration. Lastly, please always provide an edit summary, especially when making a change which could well involve controversial issues (as was indicated by the article's comments telling you not to just change it). Murph9000 (talk) 05:15, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

@Murph9000: I apologize. I saw that it said to post on the talk page before changing, and I felt I had fulfilled my obligation to do so. My argument was that conventional style guides give preference to self-identification, and thus should be used. Even the Wikipedia style guide you cite (which I was previously unaware of, so thank you) indicates this to be the case (regarding reference in Main biographical articles),

When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by reliable sources; if it isn't clear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses. [...] Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example 'man/woman', 'waiter/waitress', 'chairman/chairwoman') that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise
— MOS:IDENTITY

I interpret this to mean that reliable sources refer to her as Caitlyn Jenner, there's a priority for self-identification, and that this should be applied to any phase of that person's life. Certainly we take this to mean that there's a priority for Caitlyn to be referred to as such on her own page, or in the context of being an Olympian. I'm not sure how this would be any different. The style guide says it would only be subject to change if "the subject has indicated a preference otherwise." To my knowledge, neither Caitlyn, nor even Kris Jenner, for that matter, has indicated a preference otherwise. The text we have to work with for reference in other articles is

Generally, do not go into detail over changes in name or gender presentation unless they are relevant to the passage in which the person is mentioned. Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis. The MoS does not have specific rules stipulating when to give both names, which name to use first, or how that name should be written.
— MOS:IDENTITY

If, generally speaking, we are to interpret the main biographical page regulations to indicate a preference for self-identification, and in other articles, we are instructed to not go into details of name changes or gender presentation, then it stands to reason that we should still put precedence on self-identification (pending relevancy). If the point of "relevancy" is that Kris perceived her as male during the duration of their marriage, then I believe that thought can adequately be conveyed parenthetically (i.e. Caitlyn Jenner (formerly known as Bruce). Not doing so is in violation, as her former use of male pronouns are marginally relevant at best and neglects the precedence of self-identification formerly referenced in the MoS. There are virtually no arguments to be made supporting intentional misgendering for this single instance or in this particular context. So, unless there is any evidence for the "subject's" preference on the matter, or there's any other argument to be made for the "relevancy" of intentional misgendering, or the neglect for self-identification, then the current presentation of the article is in needless violation of the AP Style Guide, the Wikipedia Style Guide, and human dignity. Your assertion of stability is irrelevant by those standards. I suppose you can undo your undo whenever you change your mind on the matter--because it's clearly not the community or MoS' decision that is preventing the rephrasing. Nfdgoisn (talk) 06:26, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

@Murph9000: Additionally, if we are aiming for consistency, why is this particular edit not consistently paralleled when similar phrasing later occurs in the "Personal Life" section? Nfdgoisn (talk) 06:43, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

@Nfdgoisn: The stability is relevant, as I believe it reflects past consensus, which is how Wikipedia reaches decisions on issues like this. My immediate concern is not to rush through a change, without giving others a fair chance to provide input (this page is currently watched by 136 editors, so there is a reasonable chance that others may wish to provide input). My big picture concern is that the article must accurately reflect the marriage in a neutral way that is fair to Kris. It is important that a new reader who has no prior knowledge of Kris or Caitlyn is not given a misleading impression of Kris' sexuality. This article is about Kris, so it should give a true reflection of the marriage from her side. As far as I can tell, Kris entered the marriage believing that she was marrying a man, and that remained the case for the majority of the marriage. This provides context for "Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis." So, as a minimum, I believe that the infobox and the start of the main content (in the body of the article, not the lead) around the marriage must refer to Bruce in some way. Exactly how we do that is something for discussion. I am certainly not claiming that the current state of the article on this issue is perfect. We just need to be very careful to be sensitive to both Kris and Caitlyn, and ensure that a new reader could not leave with the mistaken impression that the marriage was something other than a heterosexual union. We must not assume that the reader has any prior knowledge of Caitlyn, or that they have either already read or will go on to read her article. We need at least a minimal reference to Bruce, or some appropriate and clear alternative, to properly reflect the nature of their marriage. As I said previously, I fully support Caitlyn's right to self-identification. In this particular article, we just have to be careful to fairly reflect Kris' life as well (which is the primary purpose of this article). This can be a tricky thing to get right. Murph9000 (talk) 09:37, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Drmies, as the closer of the policy discussion on this at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 121#MOS:IDENTITY clarification, would you care to provide input? Murph9000 (talk) 09:46, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

• Sorry, I have little to offer here. I think the best thing to do is to ask some of the participants in that discussion. What I can say is that for many there it was highly relevant that Caitlyn Jenner had a highly visible career as a male athlete, and of course as a male marriage partner. If it hadn't been for that, we might have seen a different discussion and consensus. Drmies (talk) 14:56, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is to be said against the solution "Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce)" in the intro (I don't think there's a need to repeat her old name afterwards). If she had changed her name for other reasons than a gender transition, I don't think her old name would be mentioned first, so I suspect a double standard here. The name Caitlyn Jenner should now be recognisable and established long enough for there to be no need to privilege her old one. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:21, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Acceptable Sources

Read the page on acceptable sources for Kris Jenner's page but I guess I'm confused on where the line is for a "tabloid". My contribution to this page was removed and I'm trying to understand which of the sources may need to change to be compliant with the 'acceptable sources' criteria so I can re-post without auto-removal.

I cited from People, US Weekly, Time, TMZ and PopCrush. I'm assuming that either TMZ or PopCrush was responsible for the auto-removal? Is that correct or are the other sources in violation as well? Time4Sammie (talk) 18:52, 30 April 2018 (UTC) 30 January 2018

Caitlyn Jenner still considers Kris her ex even though she had a different gender and name

Ok, so it doesn't matter if it says Bruce or Caitlyn as Kris's spouse, it's the exact same person who was married to Kris Jenner. We can put the spouse for Kris as Caitlyn as it is the exact same person. Caitlyn stills considers herself the same person as she was in her past life as Bruce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michaeljacksonfan104 (talk • contribs) 21:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

As a matter of record we list the name of the person she got married to in the infobox. Name changes after that fact are covered in the linked to article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:20, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Your argument that "name changes after that fact are covered in the linked to article" could as be used to combat your concern that writing "Caitlyn Jenner" mischaracterises Kris, as you mentioned in another discussion about this page. If readers are confused as to why Kris was married to a woman, then they can hover over or click on the article about Caitlyn, where the fact she is transgender and the dates regarding her transition can be found. Clicking on another article for further clarification on a specific topic that has another article is fairly standard in Wikipedia use in my experience. AmoebaAssociate (talk) 09:17, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Without rehashing all the other arguments, note that hover does not work on iPhone Safari and possibly other non-mouse aware browsers. Current compromise reflected in the article hides nothing and full details are at linked to articles for those who want more info about topics that are not Kris Jenner. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:37, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

I would argue it does hide something, as much as titling the article Kristen Mary Houghton would, as that name change, as Caitlyn's is (even solely with regards to Kris, the topic of the article), is rather pertinant.

AmoebaAssociate (talk) 21:38, 7 May 2018 (UTC) AmoebaAssociate (talk) 21:38, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Name change came near to or just after end of marriage. Per above notice "Care must be taken to ensure that a new reader who knows nothing of the subject is not given a misleading impression of Kris' sexuality". Article effectively meets that goal now, no need to change it. Geraldo Perez (talk) 22:11, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

CAITLYN IS NOT BRUCE!! WTF!

Kris Jenner was NOT married to "Bruce Jenner". Kris Jenner was married to CAITLYN JENNER! Cait was always Cait, "Bruce Jenner" NEVER EXISTED! Can you plz remove that lie from the info box and change it to CAITLYN JENNER. I have never seen a more transphobic article before! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.147.46 (talk) 00:52, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Actually Bruce Jenner did exist until the change of name and gender identity. Bruce before, Caitlyn after. Read the rest of this talk page particularly the warnings at the top before making changes. Also this article is about Kris Jenner and reflects her life and the name of the person she married. Saying she married a woman falsely characterizes her. Geraldo Perez (talk) 01:20, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

MOS guidelines are clear on this and already appear above. Caitlyn in general should be referred to by her name and as a woman. Rab V (talk) 09:59, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

@Rab V: please highlight the passage in MOS:GENDERID which supports your claim. Might I add, as Geraldo Perez just noted, the subject of this article – Kris Jenner – married a then–Bruce Jenner, not a Caitlyn Jenner. It is simply a matter of fact to state that. Whenever Caitlyn Jenner speaks of her history, she invokes "Bruce Jenner"; as should we. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 10:10, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

I will point out that the article uses the name Bruce and male pronouns at all points, including after transition. It seems we both agree that Caitlyn should be used if referring to after transition and hopefully changing at least that would be uncontroversial. In general MOS:ID, deals with how to refer to people and states to use the name commonly used in RS and for years now RS commonly use Caitlyn. Rab V (talk) 10:19, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

About your objection, in general there is no rule about avoiding names in Wikipedia that were not being used at the time. Cher is referred to as Cher in wikipedia's description including before she took on the moniker. Rab V (talk) 10:29, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Absent a compelling reason which would need consensus established to show that it actually is compelling, we use the names reliable sources use for reports of events and if an old name is linked let redirects do their magic. This article is about Kris Jenner. It is currently written with a good balance where no factual information is hidden but information irrelevant to Kris Jenner is not emphasized. The one place where names might be an issue consider is Kris talking about her marriage breakup. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:24, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2019

This article is semi-protected, but it doesn't have the protection template. Can you add it, please? 190.160.21.173 (talk) 01:01, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done NiciVampireHeart 05:46, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

changing the name Bruce to Caitlyn

Caitlyn does not identify as Bruce. That is her dead name and should not be used as her name or her previous name. This can be considered transphobia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renatammaciel (talk • contribs) 01:44, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Did then and that was the name used then and the name of the person Kris married. See extensive discussion about this issue in previous postings on this page and warnings at the top of the page about unilaterally changing the text without discussion and consensus. This article is about Kris Jenner and that is the primary focus of this article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 02:49, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

It's nothing new for her to change her name into caitlyn. Just because she was married to Kris while a man,does not mean she is stil Bruce. Wande mehllomahle (talk) 20:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

The issue is the article is reporting the name of the person Kris married, the name used at the time of the marriage and for a significant time afterwards. What happened past the date of the name change is not relevant to what happened before that date. The new name takes effect when the change happens, it is not retroactive. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

I agree in all other article past March 2015, her name should be stated as Caitlyn not Bruce. But as their divorce materialised literally one month before her name change, it should stay Bruce. Kris divorced BRUCE not Caitlyn, if that makes sense. Bruce changed her name one month and three days after their divorce. So it should stay the same. Her Olympic Gold Medals are still awarded to ‘Bruce Jenner’ and her degree from Graceland, as is with anybody else who changes their name. Chuckski4 (talk) 15:54, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

My main problem with the fact that Caitlyn is deadnamed is that she is much more famous under the name Caitlyn. When I saw the "married Bruce Jenner" I did not know who that was. I would have known instantly if the name had been Caitlyn. 21:14 14 December 2020

Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2020

In the first section of the article, change ‘Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn)’ to ‘Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce)’ as that is her name. 213.205.197.203 (talk) 18:20, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done See previous discussion on this page as to why. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Grandchildren

She now has 10 grandchildren. Jinnylee126 (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Image

The image that is shown in the infobox needs to be updated, it is from 2014. And, plenty of other images are in better quality – Jenner has dyed her hair blonde in late 2019. The image needs to be changed immediately. Hartma9616 (talk) 20:00, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Kris and Bruce

suggest that the intro of Bruce Jenner under Personal life should read ... Jenner married her second spouse, retired Olympian Bruce Jenner (over two decades later, Jenner publicly came out as a transgender woman and is now known as Caitlyn Jenner).184.181.111.53 (talk) 14:16, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

It already basically says that in the article now. Geraldo Perez (talk) 15:50, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2020

Kris has ten grandchildren: Kourtney has Mason, Penelope, and Reign. Kim has North, Saint, Chicago and Psalm. Khloe has True. Rob has Dream. Kylie has Storm. Charity1973 (talk) 01:28, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 02:52, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2021

Change the name Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn Jenner. Kkraines (talk) 14:00, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: @Kkraines: I sympathize with the view that we should avoid deadnaming article subjects wherever possible, but in this case Caitlyn was known as "Bruce" for the whole of the time that she was married to Kris Jenner (which is why she is mentioned in the article in the first place). MOS:DEADNAME is not quite on point, but I don't think that it conflicts with how this article is presently written. I think that if you want to change "Bruce" to "Caitlyn" throughout you will need to start a discussion on this talk page and obtain consensus. Best, Wham2001 (talk) 15:15, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Dangling Participle

Because this article is locked, I'm unable to correct minor grammatical issues like the one in this sentence: "Three months after moving to Oxnard, California, Shannon's business partner allegedly left with all the company's capital, so the family moved back to San Diego."

As it is, this means three months after the business partner moved to Oxnard, since the clause about the partner's action (theft) comes immediately after the participial phrase about moving. Assuming it's really the Jenner family that moved to Oxnard, this could be improved by changing it to something along these lines:

Three months after moving to Oxnard, California, the family moved back to San Diego after Shannon's business partner allegedly left with all the company's capital.

This also eliminates the less-than-ideal comma followed by "so" which just sounds unpolished. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccheitmann (talk • contribs) 18:29, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2021

Kris' age is listed as 65, but based on her date of birth, she is 66. I thought ages were automatically updated based on the date of birth, so please check the macro or whatever calculates and displays the age. Thanks. Philmoul (talk) 15:41, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

The age template is working correctly - her current age of 65 is correct. She will be listed as 66 on November 5 this year when she turns 66. Geraldo Perez (talk)

1973-2000 - 27 years of nothing?

She graduates from high school in 1973. We have two extremely short references to what she does in the 1990s without detail. We have nothing at all about what she does in the 1980s. She suddenly turns up after the year 2000 as a full-fledged celebrity. How did she get there? Poihths (talk) 16:43, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

That is because they were 27 years of nothing, her notability began with a TV show, at the start of which she was unknown I believe. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 15:47, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2021

This sentence: "...from her second marriage to television personality and retired Olympic Games medalist Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn): Kendall and Kylie" should be changed to saying retired Olympic Games medalist Caitlyn Jenner (formerly Bruce)" as that is now her name. Astrolojohn (talk) 18:47, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done - see previous discussions on this page about this. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:56, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Deadnaming

Shouldn’t the spouse section say Caitlin rather than Bruce. 2601:483:4600:7DC0:5D49:A9AB:880E:A16D (talk) 04:32, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

No. See extensive discussion on this page and the archive about this issue as to why. Geraldo Perez (talk) 05:15, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Livi787.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense to be "Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce)" rather than "Bruce Jenner (now Caitlyn)"?

(Second paragraph of intro) It still makes it clear that she was presenting as a man at the time, and that she now identifies as a woman. Finnigami (talk) 15:37, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

No. The current sentence emphasizes the name of the person she was married to and gives the name change that happened later as additional parenthetical as it is not really relevant to her marriage. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:46, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

But doesn't it make sense to give her *actual* name first and foremost? Finnigami (talk) 00:21, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

The actual name used during the marriage was Bruce Jenner, that was who Kris was married to. Name change was after the divorce. Additional info in parenthesis is just to link the name used during the marriage to the current name used as additional identifying information. Article has been stable for a fair time now and so far most editors are willing to live with the compromises made to get it that way. No compelling reason to change it now. Remember this article is about Kris Jenner. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:35, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

The name used during the marriage is less relevant, in my my mind, than the current name of the person being linked to. The link leads to the page for Caitlyn Jenner; on the page for the Kardashian Family, "Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce)" is used; this very page refers to Kris using the last name Jenner for times in her life where her name was Houghton or Kardashian. It makes sense to use Jenner throughout the page; it's how she's known now, and it's how we the readers know her. "Caitlyn" is how she's known now, it's how the reader should know her, and so Caitlyn (then Bruce) form should be used. MagicalMarsupial (talk) 01:42, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Gender identity guidelines also say "Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space." Bruce (now Caitlyn) does not give this precedence, only Caitlyn (then Bruce) would. MagicalMarsupial (talk) 01:48, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Name used during marriage is the most relevant for this specific article which is about Kris, not the person she married, and her sexuality potentially being misconstrued. The information is there as written, Kris married a person named Bruce Jenner. On balance of who to be the most sensitive to, the subject of the article should be the primary consideration. Also she was married only to Bruce Jenner who didn't change to Caitlyn until after the marriage was over. Saying Caitlyn (then Bruce) implies only named Bruce at beginning of marriage and name change happened some indeterminate time later. Geraldo Perez (talk) 02:12, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Sexuality being misconstrued seems irrelevant given that the information on her sexuality is given later in the article. An example of proper use of a trans persons chosen name is in Emma Porters page, she was married to Elliott page before he changed his name from Ellen, yet on Emma's page he is referred to as Elliott under 'spouses'. Emma is a lesbian and her sexuality is not called into question or misconstrued in her article. Elliott and Emma were married when Elliott went by the name Ellen, in the same way Caitlyn and Kris married when Caitlyn went by the name Bruce. In the case of transgender individuals, I would also strongly argue that they should first be referred to by their chosen names in all cases, with a clarification of their deadname where it is absolutely necessary. Elliott Page is a prime example of this and I see no reason why Caitlyn Jenner shouldn't be treated the same. CharlieTWilbury (talk) 23:45, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

This article is about Kris Jenner - correctly representing her sexuality is the most important consideration for this article, it is far from irrelevant, it is being sensitive to her. What other articles about other people do does not drive this one. The chosen name of the person she married and was married to was Bruce Jenner. Note also that Caitlyn Jenner does not get upset about the use of her old name in historical contexts such as this one. Also, again this article is about Kris Jenner, detailed information about other people does not really belong in it, particularly when they have their own articles that give that information. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:04, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Sexuality, as noted in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Sexuality, should not be a major concern: "Care should be taken to avoid placing undue weight on sexuality. A person's sexual orientation or activities should usually not be mentioned in the article lead unless related to the person's notability."

Therefore, we should refer to the style guide's information about gender identity (Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Gender identity). As indicated in this section, Caitlyn's deadname MAY be used as a parenthetical in the article for clarity ONCE. There is no evidence that Caitlyn prefers to use her deadname in reference to the past and Kris refers to Caitlyn as her ex, without deadnaming Caitlyn. Nonnormal87 (talk) 16:01, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Caitlin

I think Caitlin Jenner should be called her name throughout the article without her assigned name. And that (formerly) should be excised. Since trans women have always been female and being trans isn't a choice. Stephanie921 (talk) 07:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

No @Stephanie921:, there are extensive discussions about this in the talk page archive. Jip Orlando (talk) 13:55, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2022

Kris has another grandsome baby boy Thompson by Khloe. No name given yet 2.96.67.216 (talk) 23:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --3mi1y (talk) 01:30, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Change Age

She is now 67 years old. Please change her age. Thank you very much. 2603:7000:7700:67D:E118:D61D:B385:8DD9 (talk) 05:58, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Calculated by Wiki software and automatically updated. May be a slight delay until the system gets around to it. Purging page cache forced the update. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:03, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

grandchildren

it says Kris has 10 grandchildren, but she actually has 12. Kourtney has 3, Kim has 4, Khloe has 2, Rob has 1, and Kylie has 2 for a total of 12. 2603:8081:150C:5C00:2455:BA0B:D946:7AF5 (talk) 04:15, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2022

Change “Jenner has ten grandchildren.” to “Jenner has twelve grandchildren.” DNAnerd30 (talk) 02:45, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2023

Kris’ mother remarried, giving her a step brother Steven, not a half brother as they do not share one parent. He is her step brother. 2607:FEA8:7CDD:AF00:F92C:29F0:10E4:C27C (talk) 03:12, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 05:00, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2023

Change the name of her former spouse “Bruce Jenner” to “Caitylin Jenner.” Bruce is Caitlyn’s deadname, and it is considered disrespectful to refer to a transgender person by their deadname, she also is more commonly know by her current name 2601:403:100:8B00:5C73:A7C:D01F:30DD (talk) 03:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Caitlyn Jenner specifically doesn't mind her previous name being used in historical contexts such as appropriately used in this article. See previous discussions in the archives as to why the article is written with names used. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:48, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Sexuality, as noted in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Sexuality, should not be a major concern: "Care should be taken to avoid placing undue weight on sexuality. A person's sexual orientation or activities should usually not be mentioned in the article lead unless related to the person's notability."

Therefore, we should refer to the style guide's information about gender identity (Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Gender identity). As indicated in this section, Caitlyn's deadname MAY be used as a parenthetical in the article for clarity ONCE. There is no evidence that Caitlyn prefers to use her deadname in reference to the past and Kris refers to Caitlyn as her ex, without deadnaming Caitlyn.

Nonnormal87 (talk) 22:21, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

The quote from that is "Care should be taken to avoid placing undue weight on sexuality. A person's sexual orientation or activities should usually not be mentioned in the article lead unless related to the person's notability." It needn't be mentioned in the lead but it shouldn't be implied to be something other than what it is. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2023

Kris Jenner has 11 grandchildren not 10. Request this to be changed 2A0C:B381:43D:8A00:3DA2:D925:2A05:1E57 (talk) 12:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:43, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2023

Caitlyn Jenner is dead-named numerous times in this article. Fireferret012 (talk) 19:40, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done Caitlyn Jenner doesn't consider Bruce Jenner a dead name, doesn't want Bruce Jenner erased and is very proud of what Bruce accomplished. See other discussions on the page. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 March 2024

By her mother's marriage to Harry, she gained a half-brother, Steven "Steve" Shannon.[5]

This should be changed to gained a step-brother rather than half-brother as half-brother implies blood relations sharing one biological parent. 4.36.58.88 (talk) 22:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

 Done Funnyfarmofdoom (talk to me) 00:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)