Talk:Kriti

Requested move 17 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: pages moved. Andrewa (talk) 04:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

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• Kriti (disambiguation) → Kriti
• Kriti → Kriti (musical composition)

– "Kriti" is also the Modern Greek name for the island of Crete, and that exact form is not infrequently used in English (in the botanical literature, for example, it appears to be ubiquitous). It is difficult to see a primary topic between the Carnatic musical form, the island, and the dozen or so other, less notable, entries on the dab page.

I would like to note that Kriti is well-linked, so if this move request is successful, there will be around 140 links to fix [1]. – Uanfala (talk) 01:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support the film gets slightly more views (685) than the musical composition (679) and the island gets 40,579[[2]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:19, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Some new arguments to consider

I have been requested to reopen the above RM. I have initially declined to do so, but there are some new arguments raised that should be discussed, and I think that here is the place to do that. Watch this space! Andrewa (talk) 22:08, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

• I proposed using the disambiguator "musical composition", but it was a bit of a shot in the dark. For me, this doesn't necessarily imply a particular piece, but can refer to the broad type or format. But I don't know anything about music, so anything that anyone else proposes should take precedence.
  My only concern was the primary topic status. In addition to what I mentioned in the nomination, I also looked at google results (dominated by people with the name, so probably not very relevant) and outgoing traffic from the primary topic article: the link with the most clicks was that for Crete [3]. – Uanfala (talk) 22:22, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Wow, that was fast! Thank you! The disambiguator might be ambiguous I suppose. It was clear to me what was meant, but English Wikipedia is for all English speakers and I can see the possible confusion for a non-native speaker. Andrewa (talk) 22:37, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Perhaps just Kriti (music) (currently a redlink) would be a better disambiguation? We have for example Air (music). I would be happy to do that boldly after discussion here, by which I just mean, I don't think we would need to go back to RM, per wp:snow. Andrewa (talk) 22:59, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

For any others watching this space...

In particular, the editor in question said the move is flawed as it implies that Kriti is a musical composition, rather than the form that underlies many thousands of compositions and the centrepiece of most Carnatic performances. The musical meaning is clearly the primary meaning, with long-term significance over the YouTube video, and the island is normally called "Crete" in English. ... if ... disambiguation is needed, then an appropriate disambiguating term must be found. I have omitted their objections to the process, as indicated... those can be discussed at wp:MR (but I think they are quite baseless anyway).

So the issues as I see them are:

• The phrasing and/or titling that might be seen to imply that Kriti is a musical composition, rather than the form. The same IP (I guess the same editor) has made this attempt to clarify that.
• The claim that the primary topic of Kriti is after all this musical form.
• The appropriateness of the disambiguator (musical composition).

Some comments already on those! I'm still eager to see any other views on any of these issues.

Pinging Crouch, Swale and Necrothesp as the other participants.

As noted, there are many incoming links, and I'm responsible for fixing them. Any help welcome! But maybe we should resolve the issue of titling first. Andrewa (talk) 22:37, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the destination but it does seem per the evidence that there is no primary topic. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:39, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! It is my view too that on the evidence, there is no primary topic. My own opinion did not affect the closure to avoid a supervote, but I feel free to express it here. Andrewa (talk) 23:06, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I still agree that there is no primary topic. Kriti (music) would be acceptable if the disambiguator is disputed, although I confess that even rereading the article I see no real problem with the current disambiguator. It may not be a specific musical composition, but it is certainly a type of musical composition. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:55, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

If a disambiguator was required, then Kriti (music), as proposed above, would seem appropriate and consistent with e.g. Vadi (music) and Mudra (music), other terms used in Carnatic music. It seems clear to me though that no disambiguator should be required, as the musical term is the clear primary topic. As described at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC it has long-term significance as a fundamental concept in Carnatic music, which has been in use for centuries. None of the other meanings listed on the disambiguation page has comparable significance. To look at them one by one:

• Kriti (film) appears to be 20-minute video on YouTube that is only six years old, and is thus unlikely to have long-term significance.
• Kriti TV is not an article. It redirects to CreteTV, on which page there is no assertion that it is ever referred to as "Kriti".
• People with the name: the next five entries are people with Kriti as a first name, but none of their articles suggests they are ever known simply as "Kriti".
• MS Kriti I: this ship may be known as "Kriti", but the current title is adequate and seems more appropriate.
• Kriti-class destroyer is another redirect, to Medea-class destroyer, which asserts only that a ship named "Kriti" existed from 1914 to 1921. This does not denote long-term significance.
• Greek ship Kriti lists three ships, one of them the one mentioned above. None seems particularly significant.
• Other uses: the island is known as "Crete" in English, and the page title is spelt that way. It states that the island is known as "Kríti" in Greek (note the accent) but despite having a whole section on the name makes no claim that this is ever used in English. (In my experience it is occasionally used in English, but certainly not predominantly.)

This leaves the musical meaning as the only meaning with long-term significance, and the page on that subject should be moved back to the base name, where it has been stable for 18 years. --188.28.133.216 (talk) 23:59, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

• The main challenger in terms of long-term significance, in my opinion, is the island. Even if the term weren't used in English, it would be a valid disambiguation page entry as it's the native name of the place. However, it is used in English. I came here after working on a few plant-related articles, and I found out that Kriti is common in the botanical literature: in Plants of the World Online (random example [4]), Atlas Florae Europaeae, Flora Hellenica, Mountain Flora of Greece, and various papers (example). – Uanfala (talk) 01:23, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
• The 18 years of stability is not an issue. Consensus can change.
• In order to be primary topic, this topic would not just need to take precedence of each of the others, taken individually, but over all of the others, taken together. As far as I can tell, nobody is proposing another topic as primary. There has been at least one suggestion that if there is a primary topic, the musical term is not it anyway. But what they and I and others are saying is, there is no primary topic, neither the musical term nor any other. Andrewa (talk) 02:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguator

I have suggested at Talk:Kriti (musical composition)#Disambiguator that the page now at Kriti (musical composition) should be moved to Kriti (music). Please discuss there. Andrewa (talk) 02:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)