Talk:Kuban Soviet Republic

Kuban Soviet Republic

According to Mawdsley's history of the Russian Civil War the Kuban Soviet Republic was proclaimed on 13 March 1918 in Yekaterinodar. That was the capital of the Kuban. The previous regime was the Kuban Cossack Host. Colin4C (talk) 21:03, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, after some further research, Mawdsley turns out to be incorrect. Please see this and this—both sources agree with the book I used and put the date at April 13. I would appreciate it if you reverted to my version and incorporated non-contradicting bits from Mawdsley into it. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Unless Mawdsley provides some authentic documents to the contrary, there is no reasons not to believe Russian/Soviet sources. While I agree that various political things may be disrupted by Soviet propaganda, I doubt that a month later date is the case. Of course it may simply be a duplicated error, but, as I said, in such case only authentic docs or better context may be a resolution. `'Míkka>t 21:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The date you have provided from a dubious web site simply cannot right. It makes a mockery of the whole chronology of the Russian Civil War. Mawdsley is the most distinguished living historian of that conflict and provides many circumstantial details of the fighting in the Kuban in March, April, May etc. Colin4C (talk) 21:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

The White General Kornilov laid siege to Ekaterinodar, the capital of the Kuban Soviet Republic, on 10 April 1918. In the early morning of 13 April, a Soviet shell landed on his farmhouse headquarters and killed him. These are very well known facts about the Russian Civil War which make it impossible that the Kuban Soviet Republic was proclaimed on 13 April. It had already to be in existence in order for it to come into conflict with the White forces. What regime do you think that General Kornilov was besieging on 10 April? Colin4C (talk) 21:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

While there is reason in your logic, at these turbulent time a regime may have existed without being proclaimed. Anyway, Russian sources indicate another believable context: Congress of Kuban Soviets 9-14 April 1918, which may have been held not necessarily in the supposed capital. So I guess, Kornilov was besieging the not yet legitimized regime which convened the Congress of Soviets. (I hope you believe a congress is a quite non-spontaneous event.) I would suggest another approach: to figure out what was in March: a possible guess was a proclamation on the intentions to create the KSR or something, and the congress was a formal legitimization. `'Míkka>t 21:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

OK. It looks that I have found something plausible and very detailed: [1]. Someone who is interested in the subject, please incorporate into the article. Briefly, March is the date of the creation of the united Military Revolutionary Committee of Kuban, from several independent committees, which proclaimed itself a supreme power until official establishment of the government of the republic. `'Míkka>t 22:12, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. The text I've found matches your finding: it says that during the work of the Congress the forces of Kornilov entered the subsurbs of Ekaterinograd (but were repelled). `'Míkka>t 22:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I've re-examined Mawdsley and I think I may have overlooked some nuances in his text. He does state, on pages 26-7, that the Kuban Cossack Host fled from the capital of the Kuban, Ekaterinodar, on 13 March, and that a Soviet regime took over, but does not explicitly say, at this point, that this regime was formally designated the 'Kuban Soviet Republic'. Therefore I think that what Mikkalai has said above makes sense, that a Military Revolutionary Committee was in charge, in the interim, and that the formal constitution of the Republic was indeed 13 April, at the time of Kornilov's siege of the capital and of his demise. Therefore I no longer dispute the factual accuracy of this article. Colin4C (talk) 10:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Colin, Mikka. Sorry I had to take off yesterday before being able to reply, but the source Mikka has found is better than anything I would have been able to offer anyway. I'll try to incorporate it into the article and will remove the dispute tag now. Thanks again.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)