Talk:Kudmi Mahato

vandalism

User:Narky Blert Some people are constantly vandalizing this page, you are requested to block them AdivasiKudmi (talk) 11:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@AdivasiKudmi: I'm not an admin, and cannot block users. The places to report vandalism are WP:Requests for page protection (mainly for ongoing heavy vandalism by multiple IPs) and WP:Administrator intervention against vandalism (mainly for WP:Vandalism-only accounts).

Remember that WP's definition of WP:VANDALISM excludes WP:GOODFAITH edits. If you think someone is making poor edits but in good faith, as first step take the issue to their Talk Page. WP:BLOCKing is a serious sanction, and except in really bad cases should only be asked for if an editor keeps on vandalising after several warnings on their Talk Page, starting with {{uw-vandalism1}} and increasing to {{uw-vandalism4}}. (I issued a level-4 warning only yesterday. If the vandalism stops - good, job done, no further action needed. If it doesn't stop, then...) Best, Narky Blert (talk) 12:14, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Change that I reverted but wish to have a review

@Dev0745, MaxA-Matrix, Sitush, and Utcursch: Would you please have a look at this edit by Kudumi Mahato (talk · contribs). I am not knowledgeable about this topic, but the substantial changes with no edit summary & labeled as a minor change looked suspicious to me. Peaceray (talk) 20:56, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dev0745, MaxA-Matrix, Sitush, and Utcursch: This topic is under debate by the Indian government and anthropologists. The research paper about this topic is complex which makes it difficult to balance the topic. But I noticed continued vandalism by IP Users, which prevents completion. So pagKurmis

Read more at: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/935673.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppste protection is required. MaxA-Matrix (talk) 05:37, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Edit request

@Narky Blert,@AdivasiKudmi@Peaceray@MaxA-Matrix@চিথারাই মাহাতো

Kudmi is also a tribe.

In the "Classification" section of "Kudmi Mahato" article there is an incomplete information in the last line.

It is not that tribal were against their demand but some tribal organisations were against their demand. RITWIK MAHATA (talk) 21:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

@Dev0745: You inserted this with this edit. Would you please correct it.

@RITWIK MAHATA: As of sometime tomorrow, you should be autoconfirmed & able to make this requested edit yourself.

Peaceray (talk) 21:34, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

@RITWIK MAHATA:, I corrected my edit and mentioned what article say i.e different tribal outfit were protesting. Dev0745 (talk) 07:04, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. RITWIK MAHATA (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2023

Kudmi community are not a tribal community, Kudmi is a caste which is obc listed in West Bengal, Odisha and Jharkhand. You can check jharkhand , odisha, west bengal obc list. So, I therefore request you please remove tribal word from kudmi. You can check government verified obc castes list in google. Alex Fernandiz (talk) 05:40, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Kudmi are a tribal community but not Scheduled Tribe (S.T.) at present.To know the history of governmental status of Kudmi community see classification section of Kudmi Mahato article. Ritwik Mahata^t@lk 08:07, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

In India when a community get ST status then the community called tribal. You are destroying Indian constitution. Hello admin ban these Ritwik Mahata, a manipulator in wikipedia. Alex Fernandiz (talk) 09:18, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

To know the history of governmental status of Kudmi community see classification section of Kudmi Mahato article. Ritwik Mahata^t@lk 14:12, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

According to Indian constitution, ST and Tribal are same. Those community who are in ST list are called tribal. You are disobeying Indian constitution. You are spammer in wikipedia.Admin Ban this ritwik mahata from Wikipedia for providing fake information and speading spam. Alex Fernandiz (talk) 09:22, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I totally agree with you

@RITWIK MAHATA is exploiting Wikipedia for political motives and deleting every edit which does not suit his bias and narrative.

Recently an edit was made with 3 citations regarding the primary religion of Kudmi Mahatos and because it didn't suit his interests he deleted them and added his own claim of "Sarna demand" in the Religion & culture category.

If there's a religion category then the primary religion of the community shall be discussed too and not what "politicians demand". He is intentionally censoring information and spreading narratives to exploit this page for political gains.

@OhNoitsJamieplease look into this. Austin-Crix (talk) 07:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Also note that OP is blocked as sock. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 07:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Change 'tribal' to 'agricultural' from the first line, 'The Kudmi are a tribal community in the states of Jharkhand, West Bengal and Odisha of India'. As per Indian constitution, tribals are mentioned under Schedule Tribes. But, Kudmi Mahato is currently under the category of OBC in India. Must see Central list of OBCs. Jharkhand lite (talk) 07:46, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Spelling in intro

Why is the spelling "Kudmi Mahatao" used in the intro, when the article is titled "Kudmi Mahato"? —C.Fred (talk) 13:37, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Good question; I've fixed that. Many Indic names have multiple English transliterations, but the lede should match the article name. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 14:21, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Image query

In this edit on 30 September, an IP editor added an image to the infobox of the article. Just to confirm, is there consensus among editors that this addition is a good addition to the article, that it is representative of the subject and a userful image? —C.Fred (talk) 11:59, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

It's difficult to definitely ascertain if the photo is representative; Google translates the caption from the original image to "Bengali: Some of the working people of Bedia community of Naogaon area of Tarash police station of Sirajganj district are returning home after finishing their day's wage work, collecting binnar flowers to make brooms on their way home." Our Bedia (caste) article has a sourced claim that they are a Kudmi community [1], though that claim may not be universally accepted. However, despite the claims of the block evader the the community is of lighter complexion, this and other images from news articles suggests a wide variety of complexions. In any case, it might be more apprioriate to relocate the photo to Bedia (caste) given that the caption if all we have to go on. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 13:08, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Bedia are not Kudmi. Kudmi and Bedia are two distinct community. Kudmi are a cultivator caste which is enlisted in OBC catagory and Bedia are a daily labour caste which is enlisted in ST catagory. Kudmi(obc) and Bedia(st) are two different community. There is no connection between them. Pritviraj Mahto (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Tribal Word Related Problem

Kudmi are a farmer community in India. Kudmi are in obc list in jharkhand, west bengal and odisha. Kudmi are not a tribal(st) community.In India tribal word only applies to ST(Secheduled Tribe) listed community. Kudmi are OBC listed, not st listed. So remove Tribal word from article. Some filter is there which prevent to remove tribal word from first line. Kindly remove that filter So that I can remove the tribal word from Kudmi Mahato article. Kudmi community obc status proof https://jharnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/BC1.pdf Sudesh Kurmi Mahato (talk) 03:23, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Tribe and Scheduled Tribe are two different words. There is criteria to be Scheduled Tribe(S.T.) in Lokur committee report. For more clarification see- article 342(1) of Constitution of India, Classification section of Kudmi Mahato article. Ritwik Mahata^t@lk 05:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Misinformation

Kudmi is a caste in India in general, while Mahato is a common surname/title among many castes like Koeri, Kushwaha, Dhanuk, Goala, Yadav etc. So it is requested to change the name of the subject as Kudmi instead of Kudmi Mahato. Priyaranjan007 (talk) 14:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

There may be multiple names for this topic, but Kudmi Mahato is used in numerous reliable sources. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:33, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect and Inadequate information

Hello,@Utcursch @Sitush @MaxA-Matrix. I would like to explain some context about what's going on here. In the recent years, the Kudmi Mahato community has been agitating to get included in the Schedule Tribe section. The government of Jharkhand under political pressure had recommended their names to be included in ST list to the government. However the "Tribal Welfare Research Institute" of India has clearly rejected this proposal stating that they are a subcaste of Kunbis and not "Adivasi". -> www.news18.com/amp/news/explainers/why-are-kurmis-protesting-in-bengal-jharkhand-news18-explains-demand-for-st-status-amid-train-woes-6017755.html

To counter and invalidate their identity which is listed as "other backward classes" by the Indian and State government, some groups are using Wikipedia as a means to spread misinformation. The word "tribal" in the description has been included unjustifiably without proper support and source. Screenshots are taken and used as a mean to spread false information in the society.

Until the Indian or State government lists them as a "tribal" community, the word should preferably not be used until then. There should be a proper backing or source to claim the "tribal status" and it is not a matter of "personal beliefs". Individual beliefs and bias have no place in this website.

Atleast a source could have been provided previously for the "tribal" use, but it was absent.

I have a proper understanding and knowledge about this issue. I have been researching on the History of Jharkhand and the inhabiting castes and tribes since a long time. I have adequate proofs of Census, News sources, Books, International Journals, Genetic Papers, Case studies, Archives, Articles and Gazetteers to mention what's true and validated. Every word I will include will be backed by a proper source, one or multiple. I do not have personal bias against any of the communities mentioned.

I tried to make an edit recently and it triggered a positive filter. I reported it and the concerned moderator asked me to discuss this here.

I request you to please check my previous edit from the logs and ensure that it is properly verified and cited by a source. I hardly included/removed 7-8 words and supported each move with a proper source, quotations, page number, URL link, author name etc.

I humbly request you to look into this issue and verify my edit so I can proceed further. More sources will be provided to back every word if needed.

Thank you. Austin-Crix (talk) 04:56, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@OhNoitsJamie Can you please help me with this. Austin-Crix (talk) 16:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@RITWIK MAHATA discuss with me here and reach a consensus first before reverting and deleting edits with no proper justification Austin-Crix (talk) 10:03, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

For each recent edits made by me in Kudmi Mahato article i have given reason. For clarification you may see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources Ritwik Mahata^t@lk 11:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

No adequate reasons have been stated for the reversion of my edits.

I had mentioned in the Religion & Culture category that the "primary religion of Kudmi Mahatos is Hinduism"

I had mentioned 4 citations and there has been no doubts about it anywhere. There was no appropriate reason to delete my text other than your neutrality bias and political motivation.

Specify me 5 sources which disproves and falsifies the above statement. You need to provide a source and evidence to delete my scholarly citations and you should not do it because of personal interests.

If you cannot, then my edit should be allowed back in the category . Austin-Crix (talk) 12:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Unintentional glitching of the text content

@Ohnoitsjamie I was adding the Genetics subsection and it somehow glitched with paragraphs over each other and some gibberish, probably due to my browser. I kindly request to let me re-edit that (it says edit conflict) or include what I wanted to write. Please don't just delete the section, the text glitched for some reason. Austin-Crix (talk) 13:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't even have 2 minutes to fix the text before you deleted it all. Austin-Crix (talk) 13:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The sources you included do not support the text you added; you were drawing your own conclusions that weren't explicitly stated in the sources. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 13:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I have included the pages where the sources explicitly mentions whatever I mentioned. Is there anyway to submit screenshots in this portal to prove.

Since the text glitched along with other citations, were you even able to read the sources. Austin-Crix (talk) 13:14, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I did read both; though they both mentioned Kurmi Mahato, I saw nothing in either source that supported the text/conclusions you attempted to add to the article. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 13:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you to look at all graphs in page 15, labelled as figure A,B and C.

If you're well versed in genetics you'd know how to read the genetic data aswell.

Directly extracted from the source of NIBMG:

The Indo-European speaking caste populations namely Rahri Brahmins, Oriya Brahmins, Karan Kayastha, Kayastha, Mahisya, Namasudra, Kudmi Mahato, cluster together (indicated also by the pink circle in Figure 1C).:::::“ Austin-Crix (talk) 13:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

UPDATE:

The link to the source was NOT THE ONE I INTENDED TO CITE, it will be corrected ASAP.

Thanks for pointing it out, took me 15 minutes to figure out why didn't you see the mentioned pages. Austin-Crix (talk) 13:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@Austin-Crix Genetics Section: add some Reference: Kudmi/Kurmi Mahato Genetics: 1.

https://fdocuments.in/document/common-maternal-legacy-of-indian-caste-and-tribal-populations.html (Page: 39)

2.https://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Home/ShareArticle?OrgId=94b21a375a&fbclid=IwAR3mzYFjIT6F_Eaq3w4bKLu7_rfZLuTzbSEHUlI3vXqWAFXRf_4068uWzeo&mibextid=NOb6eG

Thank You.

চিথারাই মাহাতো (talk) 14:53, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

If you read the whole paper it's mentioned that the paper concluded that there was no genetic difference between tribals and caste groups in India and HG M was found in considerable rates among all populations. Please read your full source.

Moreover the source published is two decades old of what I published, which is of a higher authority and authenticity.

Also a newspaper article cannot be used for a genetic claim, if you can get me more papers then it would be helpful. Austin-Crix (talk) 15:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing to suggest that is a paid article, and the text (Social organisations of this tribal community have agitated for scheduled tribe status and recognition of their traditional Sarna religion) associated with that source makes no genetic claim. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:24, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

You have replied in the wrong section. I did not ask for a genetic claim of it here, this discussion is about a previous reversal of an edit. Austin-Crix (talk) 16:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Moreover scheduled tribe agitations should be included in Classification category and not in Religion.

"Recognition of their traditional Sarna religion" there is no existing source anywhere that suggests that Sarnaism is the traditional religion of the Kudmi Mahatos, please try to understand that 300 word newspaper articles are not valid for understanding everything about a community. I'm starting to believe that some kind of propaganda is being run by this page to forcibly tribalize and non-Hinduize the Kudmi-Mahatos. Austin-Crix (talk) 16:32, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

You don't get to decide something isn't valid because you don't like it. Further attempts to remove that section will result in you being blocked from editing this article. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Where have I stated that it should be removed because I don't like it?

Don't jump into conclusions without any proper evidence. It's clear that you are unable to provide appropriate sources for your claim and you are threatening me with moderation bans in order to legitimize your inaccurate content.

Including a narrative in a page with no proper discussions and proofs is totally wrong. If there is tons of data on Kudmi-Mahatos being Hindu then why shouldn't that be included? There are multiple works by British aswell as Indian ethnographers and anthropologists regarding the religious status of Kudmis, why shohld not that be allowed? Austin-Crix (talk) 16:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The current text does not say that all Kudmis practice Sarna; it simply says that some Kurmi groups have agigated for recognization of Sarna as a traditional religion, along with tribal status. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Then the religion should also be allowed to be specified in the "Religion & Culture" section right? I believe even you would agree with it.

We can transfer the agitations and protests to a category where it belongs, let it be there but in a suitable category. The religion & culture section is important to learn and understand about the religious and cultural practices of the Kudmi community. The reader cannot determine the religious beliefs in the present text.

Protests and recent popular demands should have their own place. I believe you understand that modern organizations demanding something X is different than the motive of the article which is to explicitly mention the faith of the Kudmi Mahato community. Austin-Crix (talk) 17:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

That sentence mentions religion, so there's no reason why it should be excluded from that section. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 18:21, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

We can shift it to the bottom of the section after the discussion of festivals instead of mentioning the protest in the first line.

You didn't reply to my argument of including the actual religious status of the Kudmis in the category, please don't avoid necessary questions. Austin-Crix (talk) 18:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ohnoitsjamie @Austin-Crix "Geneticist Dnyaneshwar Choubey of Banaras Hindu University (BHU) has examined 180 blood samples of Kudumis and has informed that M31 mutation was found in the mitochondrial DNA of Kudumis, which is found in the oldest tribal group living in Andaman and Nicobar Islands, the ‘Onge,’ which proves that Kudumi is also the oldest tribal people of this country and have been living on the Chhotanagpur plateau for the last 65,000 years,”

Source:1. http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Home/ShareArticle?OrgId=94b21a375a&fbclid=IwAR3mzYFjIT6F_Eaq3w4bKLu7_rfZLuTzbSEHUlI3vXqWAFXRf_4068uWzeo&mibextid=NOb6eG

2. https://fdocuments.in/document/common-maternal-legacy-of-indian-caste-and-tribal-populations.html (Page: 39)

Thank You. চিথারাই মাহাতো (talk) 04:12, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

The paper of Dnyaneshwar Choubey is nowhere available to refer to and cite. Stop mentioning what "social organisations" claim on newspaper articles. Newspaper articles written by an author with no expertise in research is not valid for genetic discourses, it comes under personal opinion.

I already replied to the different study which you linked me. I have read the full paper instead of the cherrypicked page.

Even in the conclusion it is mentioned that: II. As general for India, mtDNA haplogroups (Hg) M and U were found to be

dominant in the five studied populations of northern and eastern India.

III. Virtually all lineages, belonging to Hg M and Hg U what we found among these

populations, have representatives in a wide range of different Indian

populations. It strongly suggests a common, Indian-specific origin of the

maternal gene pool of the Indian tribal and caste groups.

IV. Indian tribal populations and Austro-Asiatic speakers in particular, are often

considered to be the otherwise lost genetic relicts of the indigenous

(Palaeolithic) inhabitants of India. Our results on mtDNA variation among tribal

populations and Austro-Asiatic Lodhas in particular give no grounds for such

speculations. Austin-Crix (talk) 06:04, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Religion and Culture

Historically, the Kudmi Mahatos have been a noble class. class.

Conflict information.

Families and Class both are not same. চিথারাই মাহাতো (talk) 09:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The source explicitly mentions that "Kudmis constitute so many noble families". Don't use the retort of wordplay. "Many families" constitute a bigger element known as class.

A lot of Kudmi Mahato families have been recognised as the part of nobility. There is no "conflict" of interest here. The grouping of these noble Kudmi families is described as the class. Austin-Crix (talk) 18:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@Austin-Crix Though the Kúrmis include so many noble families, their social position in Bengal Proper is not high. They are not even 'jala-charaniya' or a Tribe from whose hands a hindu of higher castes would drink water, but in Bihar this honour is accorded to them.চিথারাই মাহাতো (talk) 00:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)