Talk:Kulturkampf

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External links modified

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slipping back into heavy bias and twisting of history

in september 2015 i wrote: biased and off the point

this article has a number major mistakes which have been addressed as far back as 2005:

• kulturkampf refers to the struggles between states and (catholic) church only
• variations of the kulturkampf took place in many countries
• there is too much focus on bismarck and hardly mention of the liberal majorities in the parliaments
• there is no mention of any background (e.g. general development in society)
• anti-polish policies existed before, during and after the kulturkampf and had a different background. the kulturkampf served purposes of anti-polish policies which deserves mention, not more.
• bismarck is portrayed as a culprit and the catholic church as a victim; the church was a major power player

as a result, this article is totally biased and in need of essential changes. as long as these points are not addressed, the pov tag will have to stay in place.

unfortunately, after straightening out major flaws by april 2016, the introduction again only focusses on germany, background info, important for the understanding of kulturkampf, was dropped and, again, supression of the polish minority is portrayed as a major objective of the german kulturkampf. it certainly deserves mention in polish history as it was a welcome tool of supression but it was not conseived as such and kulturkampf played a much larger and different role on the world stage. the kulturkampf shaped the relationship most states in the world have with religion and churches today. therefore, in this article, the role of the german kulturkampf in the supression of the polish minority is not more than a note on the side. anything else is twisting history.

besides, pointing to other wikipedia articles is not the same as adding sources. also, it is not necessary to add a source after every sentence if the source for the content of several sentences is given at the end of the paragraph. as to adding "history" of the catholic church: it takes two to make the kulturkampf a struggle, the state and the church, so what the church did and thought in those years is half of the whole equation. for those who believe in a german "sonderweg", they might want to add the german kulturkampf to that discussion, but inherent racism and being a model for nazi policies are more than far fetched, no matter what book has been written about it. Sundar1 (talk) 11:32, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

I would support the opinion of the user above that the focus on Poland seems out of proportion to its historical importance in this context and that the catholic church comes off as a victim, which is a contradiction in terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.141.213.38 (talk • contribs)

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Zimmerman ref

Moved from User talk:SamuelRiv § Kulturkampf ref

 – SamuelRiv (talk) 15:02, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is a disagreement about definitions — whether or not Zimmerman is "reliable" depends entirely on the quality of her reasoning, which is in this case highly tendentious and debatable. Here Zimmerman is *redefining* "racist" to include antipathy between nationalities on the basis of cultural (not biological) differences. But 19th-century German "racism" — in the most widely accepted definition of the term — makes its stand precisely on biology: this is the age of Social Darwinism, eugenics, anti-Semitism, etc: see, for example, the Wiki entry on "scientific racism." There is nothing in the rest of the Kulturkampf entry about race, because it's not about race: "the German term Kulturkampf describes any conflict (political, ideological, social) between the secular government and the religious authorities of a society." Can you find a *single* academic beside Zimmerman who thinks the Kulturkampf is also "racial"? If so, please add a further citation and feel free to revert; otherwise please let the delete stand. Ediderotimus (talk) 12:28, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

The article quotes Zimmerman's interpretation with inline attribution by name and with direct quotation. Doesn't mean we think it's right (in fact it usually means we don't), but rather just that it's worth mentioning. SamuelRiv (talk) 14:51, 14 September 2024 (UTC)