Talk:Kunoichi

Popular culture list

IMHO, the "List of kunoichi in popular culture" section is waaaay too long. It needs some trimming...68.228.75.74 09:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd say, branch it off into a new article, and put this text into that section:

Main article: List of kunoichi in popular culture

--Henrickson 00:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Kunoichi Ways

This entire section is poorly written and cites no sources. With no sources (and how reputable are the sources cited in the rest of the article?), I think this section should be deleted.

Westerly 05:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The dictionary source is pretty reputable. The rest, well, those are sources and seems to be verifiable(I did not try to verify them, though) This article needs a lot of work, a lot more sources and no matter what we do, this section you are talking about probably will not stay as what it looks like now. I'd say be bold and delete it. MythSearcher^talk 07:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

History

The entire edit done on 10:02, 4 June 2007 should be removed, or at least this material should not appear in the History section, as it is based on the controversial and historically dubious writings of Ashida Kim. The kunoichi do have a historical basis in Japan that vastly predates the Tong wars in the US.

What do you think about using http://hatsumi.free.fr/hatsumi-painter-kunoichi.htm as a source for editing this thing out of Ashida Kim's hands? Kendamu 14:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks reasonable, yet strange. This is an artist page, and the article there is a short lesson for people to understand the picture only. Not much authoritative knowledge is reviewed there. (Artist knowing much about female ninjas? hmmm...) MythSearcher^talk 16:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That would be Masaaki Hatsumi. It may be his artist website, but he's considered to be one of the world's big authorities on Ninjutsu. He's the grandmaster of, amongst others, three Ninja fighting arts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaaki_Hatsumi I'd say that info would be safer to use than Ashida Kim's stuff. Kendamu 05:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The entire thing just seems like nonsensical fantasy garbage, to an objective reader, educated beyond Anime 101. How do ronin figure into any of this? This isn't a samurai article, and the word itself isn't a generic do-all. It's much more specific than something able to be applied generally like this. If you're going to tell the story of a woman/clan in your HISTORY section, perhaps some specification by way of... a name would help? This just seems like conjecture on the part of someone who reads too much manga. A source to any of this, a name, a reason to believe any of it... a semblance of logic? Any of it would help the credibility of this article.Skinspiral (talk) 06:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

To an Actual reader, educated beyond a level where looking up the dictionary is common sense of credibility, please look at the source of the Japanese Dictionary(ref 4, that is). The article might be crap, but a sourced dictionary is more than fantasy garbage to anyone really sensical. Also, the second section quoted books from 1680 and 1716, which is pretty logical to me and I assume any regular editor and viewer of this page. So I guess you are no regular and seems like one that either did not actually read the text or simply ignore them. MythSearcher^talk 09:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I agree with him. The etymology section is alright, but both the history and the "Kunoichi Ways" sections are pretty much garbage. The first has one dubious source (that conflicts with the information in the etymology section), while the latter cites nothing at all, and seems to be entirely based on pop culture imports. Nothing about this is encyclopedic.

I'm actually pretty surprised that this article is in such bad shape, given the popularity of the topic. No article at all might be better than this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.201.158.102 (talk) 00:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. What the hell is up with that story about "the daughter of one assassinated lord", etc? "Her real name has been lost to time, but she was known as the “Dragon Lady” (Kunoichi)." Sounds like something from a bad movie (and a terrible dictionary, for the last part)... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems like most were in agreement that the "Kunoichi ways" section was mostly manga inspired junk several years ago. It still cites no sources and seems highly dubious. So I guess I'll remove it. A dictionary definition of what a word means is not an adequate source for what something actually was in history. The irony of the section is that it begins by saying, "Unlike in fiction..." and then proceeds to describe *exactly* how kunoichi are presented in fiction as fact, with no sources.Yeahchris (talk) 00:17, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Character from InuYasha, Sango

Would Sango, the demon slayer character from the TV Anime and Japanese Manga, InuYasha, be counted among this list?

In her fighting form, she seems much like the trickery provided of the female ninja way.

Not trying to force an idea, just food for thought..

--- BH 11-3-07  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.255.244.126 (talk) 23:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC) 

A Ninja village seperate from the demon slayers was mentioned in one Inuyasha episode, so she isnt a ninja or a kunoichi. Although, she does seem a little like one. 76.91.172.247 (talk) 06:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Characters from Bleach(anime)

I suggest the addition of the characters Soi-Fon(spelling?) and Yoruichi. Both of them female warriors, experts in hand-to-hand combat. Whether they practice Ninpo/Ninjutsu or not could be up for debate, since they also use a lot of esoteric techniques, most of them are related to spirit force. Iceman B (talk) 03:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Please provide reliable sources to support the edition of look-alikes. Bleach to my understanding uses no real world martial art techniques, and never said those two used ninjutsu. Although you can place the not real argument on other series like Naruto, which I also have not much positive comments, it specifically said they are practising ninjutsu in the series. The pop culture section is way too original research, and too much trivia data and is serving also no purpose. The section itself should focus in showing others some popular series that could be very helpful in understanding what Kunoichi is, instead of having a long list that makes people hard to read and unwilling to read. MythSearcher^talk 06:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TenchuRFD Ayame 3.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 08:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge

I think that the partial list in this should be merged with the fictional ninja list that includes mainly male ninjas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.10.36.234 (talk) 05:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Any real life examples?

Are there any real life examples? There aren't any mentioned here. --AW (talk) 06:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Anyone?? --AW (talk) 20:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Mochizuki Chiyome for the Takeda was a kunoichi, in fact she was the trainer as well for all the kunoichi of the Takeda which proved to be a valuable link for information. Just sharing what I know from the wikia I belong to. Why isn't she listed in this article as she was an important Kunoichi to history —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.58.97 (talk) 20:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

How do you pronounce this? RJFJR (talk) 18:02, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not good at using the proper pronunciation symbols, so I can't put this in the article... But Japanese pronunciation is pretty straight-forward. I'd pronounce it: Koo No Eee Chee --Mdwyer (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I am removing the part of the article where popular etymology is mentioned

See: with Japanese numbers "ku" (九) for "nine", the particle "no" (の) for "and" and "ichi" (一) for "one", literally translated to "nine and one"

The particle の (no) does not mean "and". It is the possession particle. Sample sentence:

ナンシのいぬ

Nancy no Inu

Nancy's Dog

The correct translation would therefore be "nine's one", which makes no sense according to this definition. In addition, the kanji 九 is not pronounced "ku", it is pronounced "kyu", which may not seem like a big difference to western eyes, but in fact it that is the difference between く and きゅ in Japanese. Do not add commentaries about languages that you do not know! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kneesoxx (talk • contribs) 22:44, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Do you know what you're talking about? 能 is "ability, talent". "In addition, the kanji 九 is not pronounced "ku", it is pronounced "kyu"" - then how do you pronounce 九月? "Do not add commentaries about languages that you do not know!" - Likewise. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 13:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I for one have no reason to doubt that 能 means 'talent', but how does that explain the peculiar translation of の as 'and'? Homophones abound in Japanese but I'd be shocked to learn that a conjunction and a possessive particle are homophonous in any language. —Tamfang (talk) 04:54, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

"no" is used in Mathematics to denote addition. Strictly, "ku no ichi" is how one might SAY "9 + 1", in a similar way that there are other terms to mean addition in English such as "nine plus one" or "nine and one". I can't really get you a reference for this because this is an example of how something is said differently to how it's written, but I got this information from an American Teacher who taught in Japan. If someone could find a source, all well and good, but I don't think it really makes a whole lot of difference, this is an argument over nothing.14.202.44.49 (talk) 13:39, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

This page needs a recreation...

It requires more information to be considered a real page, if needed I can find information of the Kunoichi history, given the fact one of my ancestors was one, I have an early start.

Kogmaw (talk) 13:57, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

If I have permission of course.

Kogmaw (talk) 14:01, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

There's no need of a permission to edit Wikipedia. --Niemti (talk) 15:09, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

this page is a joke

I made it better by talking about hot ninjas.

My ancestor was a Kunoichi too, she taught me the secret ways of the nine shadowbanes throwing technique. I can also teleport and control minds and I am a furry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.33.134.171 (talk) 19:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I concur

While you're being unabashedly puerile, I cannot entirely dismiss you as being remiss. In my opinion, this article is an abject superfluity--of the variety that we should give no quarter. Ghost Lourde (talk) 01:28, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Unnecessary lines removed.

Removed the following lines for being entirely unrelated to the article.

The "くノ一" writing requires the use of one character from each Japanese character set[3] — first hiragana, then katakana, then kanji. While hiragana and kanji can exist in the same word, katakana generally cannot appear in conjunction with the others. There are exceptions to this, for example in "ゴミ箱" and "消しゴム".

122.216.30.66 (talk) 06:05, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

But why?

Could the page explain why this modern term has appeared? Generally in English the trend is to go from gender-specific terms to neutral ones, it'd be interesting to know why we start having a special word for "female ninja". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.29.58.209 (talk) 20:44, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't have a good authoritative source acceptable to cite here, but as most pop culture sources will attest, this alternative moniker for "a practitioner of ninjutsu," while in long use, for both genders, is often specifically used for female ninja in order to make a sort of punning association. The balderizerious censors of Wikipedia take issue to the subject of readings as "nine and one" (as discussed in its own section, above) and subsequent associations with traditional teachings regarding "sgo dgu," the "nine orifices of the male's body" plus the exclusively feminine birth canal; to them, it seems like a "dirty joke," even though others might indignantly state it is perfectly clean word-play associating a gender neutral term for a ninja with a respectable and traditional description of women when speaking of a female practician. It is usually stated that the word association is a recent invention, even though many authorities attesting to its newness are, as of this writing, over half a century old, and some apparent uses of it are of several times that antiquity. To be fair, many of the highly notable uses examples of someone insisting on "kunochi" for a female ninja, and not for a male, have had an intentional lascivious character: a popular anime recently had a comically lecherous foreign henchman correct his fellow villain, who had referred to the Tokyo law-enforcement official heroine opposing them as a "ninja," that he should say instead "kunochi"--corrected him while leering, no less. The fact remains, however, that many uses of "kunochi" specifically to indicate a woman who is a ninja, have no obvious prurient character, indeed are by speakers who can reasonably be assumed to be speaking in a respectable manner, such as scholars.

In short, the word has a long history as a synonym for ninja, and the explanation for why a historically gender neutral term is sometime considered feminine is difficult to explain here, without being deleted. It should not need to be stated that, whether or not it is in fact the case, any subject that is currently viewed as contentious in this manner is invariably assumed to be of recent origin. Ye olden days of yore were respectable and chasted and above all, following the latest trends in respectability and political correctness, don'tcha know!

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.31.212 (talk) 17:29, 27 January 2017 (UTC) 

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'Technique to use a female' - bad translation?

I feel like this translation is spurious and disputable. Also, the cited source is in Japanese, so I wonder if it can be the source of this translation / interpretation. kunoichi (onna) no jutsu literally just translates to 'woman's technique' or 'woman technique'. Does the cited text specifically go into the interpretation of kunoichi no jutsu? Could someone fluent in Japanese confirm this?

I wonder hether the interpretation of 'technique used by a woman' or 'technique to utilize a woman (subordinate for espionage)' is more correct. The technique to utilize a sword is called _kenjutsu_ and not _ken no jutsu_ after all. Reading the paragraph, specifically this interpretation seems to be the main point of contention between Fujita and Yoshimaru & Yamada, but the wording was quite vague.

Anyway, even if the second interpretation is correct, and it means 'technique that a general or spymaster learns for utilizing woman spies', the word 'female' sounds unnatural in the translation, and carries a misogynistic tone.

84.59.118.195 (talk) 08:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC) (EDIT, clarified argument here; also made a minor clarifying edit to the article in this spirit, and replaced 'female' with 'woman') ~~