Talk:Kurdish Mastiff

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• Pshdar Dog-Kurdish Dog-Kurd Mastiff.jpg

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Assyrian mastiff vs kurdish mastiff

This dog is clearly referenced in many books as the Assyrian mastiff. It is a dog that was used in ancient times by the Assyrians.

https://www.google.de/search?q=%22assyrian+mastiff%22&rlz=1C1UEAD_enCA981CA981&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwimq9Xa7M33AhUsg3IEHa3HCGsQ_AUoAXoECAEQCw&biw=1920&bih=961&dpr=2

The books talk about how the dog was used by the ancient Assyrians and refer to it as an Assyrian mastiff. Šitādālu (talk) 16:56, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Where's the link between the modern day "Kurdish" dog and the ancient Assyrian one? This is Wikipedia:OR and please stop moving the name without consensus. --Semsûrî (talk) 17:14, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Also stop removing sourced info without consensus. --Semsûrî (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

The fact the dog is native to the Assyrian homeland is the link. If it was a Kurdish dog it would be native to Iran, not Iraq. Also there is no source that states the dog disappeared. The name kurd is only a few hundred years old. You're saying this dog appeared magically right when the kurdish identity formed in the 16th century? I didn't remove the name. The original version used the words Assyrian mastiff. Also, your sources are rudaw which is a biased kurdish nationalist news site and a paper written by two Kurds from the university of Suliamania and Salahaddin University. Not reliable whatsoever. There are a plethora of high quality sources referring to the Assyrian mastiff. Šitādālu (talk) 19:54, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

List of refs added by Šitādālu in Special:Diff/1086681478:

• Wynn, M. B. (2011-03-29). History of The Mastiff - Gathered From Sculpture, Pottery, Carvings, Paintings and Engravings; Also From Various Authors, With Remarks On Same (A Vintage Dog Books Breed Classic). Read Books Ltd. pp. 24–25. ISBN 978-1-4465-4892-9.
• Houghton, William (1876). On the Mammalia of the Assyrian Sculptures.
• Timbs, John (1866). Strange Stories of the Animal World: A Book of Curious Contributions to Natural History. Griffith and Farran. p. 317.
• Zoologist: A Monthly Journal of Natural History. West, Newman. 1884. p. 399.
• Wood, John George (1889). The Dominion of Man. R. Bentley. p. 35.
• Leighton, Robert (1911). The new book of the dog, by R. Leighton assisted by eminent authorities. Cassell. p. 5.
• Miller, Samuel Henry; Skertchly, Sydney Barber Josiah (1878). The Fenland, Past and Present. Leach and son. p. 347.
• Darwin, Charles (1990-05). The Works of Charles Darwin, Volume 29: “Erasmus Darwin” by Ernest Krause, with a Preliminary Notice by Charles Darwin; “The Autobiography of Charles Darwin” Edited by Nora Barlow; and Consolidated Index. NYU Press. p. 250. ISBN 978-0-8147-1827-8. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "5 Oppressed Iranian Dog Breeds". Dog Breeds FAQ. 2019-07-12. Retrieved 2019-10-15.
• Binney, Ruth (1999). The Origins of Everyday Things. Reader's Digest. p. 43. ISBN 978-0-7621-0141-2.
• Pollard, Anna (1980). Dogs. American Family Publishers. p. 6.

–LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:06, 7 May 2022 (UTC) See also: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#OR_edits_and_name_change_without_consensus. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:07, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Here is a link to the same kurdish nationilist propoganda website that the other user uses as a source stating that this is an Assyrian dog that was used 5000 years ago well before the kurdish identity existed: https://www.rudaw.net/english/lifestyle/18022020 or https://archive.ph/nZG4f. This should end this debate. Šitādālu (talk) 18:50, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

RfC on Assyrian mastiff vs Kurdish mastiff

Should the name Assyrian mastiff or Kurdish mastiff be used for this article?

• Option 1 Assyrian mastiff
• Option 2 Kurdish mastiff

Please refer to the discussion on this talk page as well as this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#OR_edits_and_name_change_without_consensus Šitādālu (talk) 20:50, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I must concur with @Phil Bridger: on how pitiful this 'debate' is. It is clear that the arguments aren't really about the name of the dog breed, but about what the respective editors think the region they come from should be called. Why not use the neutral name of Pshdar/Pishdar dog? That should solve the problems, and furthermore is supported by most provided sources. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:58, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Pshdar/Pishdar dog is a Kurdish word so it is not neutral. It should be called the Assyrian mastiff because it was originally used by Assyrians and it is native to exactly where Assyrians live (Assyria). I have no issues with the article also stating that Kurds refer to the dog as pshdar but the dog is clearly older than the word Kurd itself. The sources he gave are all biased. One is a Kurdish news site and the other is a paper written by two Kurds in Iraq. There are tons of books referring to the dog as Assyrian mastiff. Even Charles Darwin himself. Šitādālu (talk) 22:12, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

the dog is clearly older than the word Kurd itself — the dog is also older than the word Assyria itself, considering that word is of Greek origin. Pshdar/Pishdar dog is a Kurdish word so it is not neutral and I suppose that if it was an Assyrian word it would, somehow, be neutral. it is native to exactly where Assyrians live (Assyria) — you have clearly failed to notice that it is also native to exactly where Kurds live (hint: it's the same place. Or is your argument that different peoples can't live in the same region?) There are tons of books referring to the dog as Assyrian mastiff. Even Charles Darwin himself. — in copy-pasting every link that came up when you searched 'Assyrian mastiff' in Google Books, you seem to have forgotten that we are discussing the modern animal. Charles Darwin can write volumes upon volumes about ancient Assyrian dog sculptures all he wants—it has no relevance to a discussion of the modern animal. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:33, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

the dog is also older than the word Assyria itself, considering that word is of Greek origin I use the word Assyria because this is an English board. Assyrians have a name for this dog in Akkadian which is much older than any Kurdish word. You can refer to this book for the Akkadian name of the dog [1] page 22. and I suppose that if it was an Assyrian word it would, somehow, be neutral Yes because it originated in Assyria and was depicted by Assyrians. you have clearly failed to notice that it is also native to exactly where Kurds live (hint: it's the same place. Or is your argument that different peoples can't live in the same region?) What does this have to do with anything? The dog was first used in Assyria. The Kurdish identity is new regardless of which language you use anyone else who says otherwise is just talking about theories. The dog is in Northern Iraq. Should we call it the Arab dog because Arabs live there as well? Or maybe Iraqi dog. There is no mention of Kurds when this dog was first mentioned and shown in art. in copy-pasting every link that came up when you searched 'Assyrian mastiff' in Google Books, you seem to have forgotten that we are discussing the modern animal. Charles Darwin can write volumes upon volumes about ancient Assyrian dog sculptures all he wants—it has no relevance to a discussion of the modern animal. It's the same dog. Even the source that the other user posted described it the same way it is described in my sources. My copy pasting is just to show that there are a lot more sources referring to it as an Assyrian mastiff than a biased paper and wordpress news site written by Kurds. There is no source stating this dog disappeared and it is native to the same place where it was first mentioned and used. Šitādālu (talk) 23:33, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Please provide one reliable, scientific source stating that the ancient Assyrian mastiff as depicted in sculpture, is the same as the modern, unrecognised dog breed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:00, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@Šitādālu:, any findings? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:03, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

An Assyrian mastiff has sure more RS than the modern Kurdish breeders and for me the sculptured dogs with their carved names on them also merit an article. Maybe there could be one for the ancient Assyrian mastiff and one for the modern breeders?Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:23, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

• Whether this is one breed or two, and whether it should be called the Kurdish Mastiff or the Assyrian Mastiff or anything else is nothing whatsoever to do with anyone's political opinion or who lived in an area when or what sort of dogs they kept. The relevant policy is WP:COMMONNAME, i.e. what this/these breed(s) are called in reliable sources in English. What it/they might be called in any other language is totally irrelevant. These searches (which I have not looked at the results of) might inform the discussion: [2], [3], [4]. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:50, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  I think my new findings should bring this debate to an end. Here is the exact same kurdish nationalist website that the user Semsûrî cited stating that it is indeed an Assyrian dog as they call it an Assyrian Shepherd: https://www.rudaw.net/english/lifestyle/18022020 or https://archive.ph/nZG4f. They even state that the dog is 5000 years old which is long before the kurds even existed. Šitādālu (talk) 19:00, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  It certainly doesn't bring the discussion to an end, because it doesn't matter at all whether this/these breed(s) is/are Assyrian or Kurdish or anything else. The only thing that matters is its name in English, which might, for all we care, totally misrepresent its origin. I don't know whether they originate from those countries or not, and one of the countries doesn't exist under that name any longer, but the German Shepherd and the Rhodesian Ridgeback are known by those names, so the articles are correctly titled. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:33, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  If you look at your google books results, there are significantly more books calling it an Assyrian mastiff. The recent source I added even states the dog is 5000 years old and there are other sources that also state that it is an ancient dog. There is no country called Assyria or Kurdistan but calling it something like Iraqi mastiff wouldn't make sense since there are no sources that use that name. Šitādālu (talk) 20:26, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  What seems much more telling is this search, which demonstrates quite clearly that these are not the same breed. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:46, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

  They are the same breed. Both are found in the same area, has the same characteristics, and is even referred to as Assyrian in the rudaw article. There are other sources referring it as Assyrian as well. I have no issue with the kurdish name being left in the article but the article name should be Assyrian if the dog is 5000 years old. Šitādālu (talk) 23:40, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

• Kurdish Mastiff WP:COMMONNAME Searches find that 'Assyrian Mastiff' almost always refers to the historic dog. Results relating to modern dogs typically are one of the following three outcomes: 1: 'Kurdish Mastiff', 2: 'Pishdar Dog', or 3: all three in the same article ('Kurdish', 'Assyrian', 'Pishdar'). Of those three search results, the two that seem to be prevalant are either 'Kurdish Mastiff' or all three names mentioned as synonyms.— rsjaffe 🗣️ 18:19, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
• Kurdish Mastiff or Pishdar Dog as above; additional recommendation for Assyrian Mastiff to be a separate article on the historical dog, as seen in sculptures, as no reliable evidence has been produced showing that the modern and ancient dogs are the same.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:59, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
• Kurdish Mastiff we need to rely on WP:COMMONNAME here -and would also support separate article for historical Assyrian Mastiff article. Deathlibrarian (talk) 13:20, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
• Kurdish Mastiff I'll note that many of the search results for Assyrian Mastiff relate to ancient sculptures of dogs, not necessarily the modern breed. As others have already expressed in the relevant ANI thread, I'm concerned that the fight over the name of the animal is functioning as a proxy war over ethnicity. Regardless, WP:COMMONNAME suggests Kurdish Mastiff. Furthermore, even if the dog *is the same* as the one that inhabited Assyria 5000 years ago, WP:COMMONNAME would *still* suggest we use the name of Kurdish Mastiff. Lkb335 (talk) 22:03, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
• Kurdish because it is better supported by sources. --Seggallion (talk) 15:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC) sock puppet of banned user
• Option 2: Kurdish mastiff, per the above explanations. --1990'sguy (talk) 01:20, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
• Kurdish Regardless of whether an article will be created for the historical dog or not, Kurdish Mastiff is the common name, and is most supported by sources. AnneDant87 (talk) 14:08, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
• Assyrian Charles Darwin and other authors called it the Assyrian Mastiff and referenced it to Assyrians for a reason. There are significantly more reputable sources referencing it as the Assyrian Mastiff. Kaghassi (talk) 18:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• Assyrian dog-Assyrian mastiff-Pshdar dog History-Inscription.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• Assyrian dog dog Inscription-Assyrian mastiff History-Pshdar dog-Assyrian Dog-Mesopotamia.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:36, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

unit capitalization

Use "kg" as the abreviation for kilogram, not "KG".

Capitalization has meaning in the prefixes and units of the metric system. The propper abreviation for kilogram is "kg", not "KG". "K" has no formal meaning as a Metric or SI prefix but had been adopted in the tech industry to mean 1024 (10^3), compared with "k" (1000). Note that there are other prefixes where capitalization identifies drastically different quantities, as in "M" (1,000,000) vs "m" (1/1000). However, "G" is "Gauss" (a unit of magnetism), whereas "g" is the abreviation of gram.

References: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metric_units https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_prefix https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix 66.41.184.63 (talk) 13:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:29, 20 August 2022 (UTC)