Talk:Kurdish coffee

Undiscussed move

I have reverted the undiscussed move of the page from "Kurdish coffee" to "Menengic coffee" by Suicideboi. You must follow the procedures at Wikipedia:Requested moves if you wish to propose a move of the article, thanks. --IamNotU (talk) 14:06, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

No reason to expect a dispute concerning a move.

There is no reason to expect a dispute concerning this move so i have moved the page back to "Menengic coffee", thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suicideboi (talk • contribs) 14:10, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Chill, everybody

Hi guys. Rather than revert warring over this, may I (strongly) suggest that the issue be discussed here before any more moves, to try building consensus. The original move was fine, in the sense that Wikipedia:Requested moves is only needed when the editor who wants the name change is unable to perform the move themselves due to technical reasons. That being said, it's obvious that this was a controversial decision, so discussion and consensus-building is the way forward. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:18, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I'd like to note that Wikipedia:Requested moves (or at least a prior discussion) is also needed for "potentially controversial" moves when "someone could reasonably disagree with the move". The fact that I reverted it would seem to indicate that I disagreed with or disputed the move... I'd prefer that the article be moved back to the stable title pending outcome of the discussion. That would be in accordance with WP:RMUM. But I also agree that revert warring isn't productive.

I did a Google books search, in which I could find only two sources that mention "menengic" coffee. Both were Turkish travel guides; one of them says "try the menengic (wild pistachio) coffee". Two memoirs mention "pistachio coffee" as being Kurdish.[1], [2]. Another has "pistachio coffee and tarhana from Gaziantep", and another describes "pistachio coffee" in Adana. None mention "terebinth coffee" or "turpentine coffee".

A Google news search for "kurdish coffee" gives two articles from the Chicago Tribune discussing it, plus a couple of others, for example "traditional Kurdish coffee, which is made with ground terebinth beans",[3] and "Kurdish coffee is made from pistachio seeds".[4]. "Menengic coffee" gives only a single result. Five or six others describe things like "pistachio coffee–a regional treat [of Diyarbakir]", "pistachio coffee" in a Turkish restaurant in Australia, and "coffee made from ground pistachios".

I was unable to find any other online encyclopedia entries for the subject. I couldn't find the word "menengic" in any English dictionary.

Of the English-language sources cited in the article, one calls it "Kurdish coffee" (Chicago Tribune), another uses the Turkish word menengiç untranslated (anissa's blog) - though Charles Perry (food writer), a historian of Middle Eastern food, in a comment there translates it as "terebinth". The third is Neuroprotective potential of some terebinth coffee brands...

Several online translation dictionaries translate menengiç as "terebinth" but none were able to translate menengiç kahvesi, except Google Translate which gave "turpentine coffee".

A Google Scholar search gives zero results for "mengenic coffee", "kurdish coffee", or "pistachio coffee", while "terebinth coffee" gets about 70 hits, with a significant number of duplicates due to citations.

In terms of unreliable sources and WP:GHITS, a regular Google search (with "-wikipedia") showed about five thousand hits for "menengic coffee", ten thousand for "Kurdish coffee" (though that probably includes a large number that refer to regular coffee), and about a thousand for "terebinth coffee". "Pistachio coffee" gets 30,000, but that also includes a significant number about pistachio-flavored regular coffee or ice cream. "Pistachio coffee" with either "Turkish" or "Kurdish" together gives about 7,000 hits, significantly more than "menengic coffee". Note that these Google-hit numbers are very fluid and not reliable...

Pinging User5910, who showed some interest in the article, what do you think? --IamNotU (talk) 04:08, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Re: 'what do you think?' from IamNotU

I'm generally happy as long as information about this beverage is findable from a "Kurdish Coffee" search/redirect. Given my druthers I prefer it under the original "Kurdish Coffee" title but I have not researched the name for correctness. User5910 (talk) 04:00, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

all the sources i posted are from academic articles.

not travel guides. if i wanted to post from magazine websites like kurdistan24 or chicago turbine i could list 100 more sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suicideboi (talk • contribs) 18:24, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

There are no travel guides cited in the article. Is this comment is related to the above discussion of the article name? If so, the point is to try to ascertain what the most common name is, and we need to use English if possible. There is only one English-language academic paper cited in the article, which says: "Terebinth coffee, known as ‘‘menengic coffee’’ in Turkish...". That would suggest that "menengic coffee" is not a good candidate for the article name.

The three other papers are in Turkish. They have abstracts in English, that may not be particularly reliable to ascertain common English usage: one refers to "Turpentine coffee which is belong to Gaziantep", one has one mention of "menengic coffee" in the abstract, and the third has it as a "keyword". As I noted above, a Google Scholar search found numerous academic articles in English referring mainly to "terebinth coffee", and none to "menengic coffee". --IamNotU (talk) 17:35, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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There was one orphaned citation that might be useful, but I don't know what it contains:

<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327573775_Somut_Olmayan_Kulturel_Miras_Olarak_Kahve_Gelenegi_ve_Tuketimi_Hakkinda_Bir_Arastirma_Hatay_Gaziantep_ve_Sanliurfa_Ornekleri_An_Investigation_As_An_Uncommitted_Cultural_Heritage_Cofee_Tradition_And_Co/citation/download|title=An Investigation As An Uncommitted Cultural Heritage Coffee Tradition And Consumption: Hatay, Gaziantep And Şanlıurfa Samples|last=|first=|date=|website=|url-status=live|archive-url=|archive-date=|access-date=}}</ref>

--IamNotU (talk) 16:37, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

National origins

I've restored the sourced material about it being a traditional Kurdish beverage. I'm sure it's also a traditional Turkish beverage, but the two are not mutually exclusive. For example, Künefe is considered by many to be a traditional dessert of Antakya and the Hatay region of Turkey, but that doesn't mean it's not a traditional dessert of Nablus in Palestine, which it definitely is. --IamNotU (talk) 16:55, 8 October 2019 (UTC)