Talk:Kurdistan Workers' Party/Archive 3

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Archive 5

Untitled

pkk=terrorist organization=el-kaide

Removed pending citation

• As of 2005, the PKK's return to violence has been with much less ferocity than its pre-1999 campaign, and the Turkish military, in contrast to the aggressive tactics of the 1980s and 1990s, have largely pursued a policy of maintaining normality in southeastern Turkey. The movement seems to have lost considerable support among Kurds, with a significant number of Democratic People's Party politicians and prominent formerly pro-PKK personalities denouncing the return to violence.
  • Yes, the violence stared again in 2005, Şemdin Sakik, second man coming right after Ocalan, stated that "The only people left in PKK that want to fight are war-loving-maniacs." and added "PKK is the primary reason of povery and economic problesm in Turkey". Onhis letter to Ocalan. If you really want citation I can but it will likely be in Turkish only. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 03:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• Currently fighting with PKK on the Iranian mountains. The former government of Iraq supported PKK. After the second gulf war, the current government of Iraq and USA acknowledges the PKK as a terrorist group, however they are doing very little about the PKK's Northern Iraqi bases.
  • US is doing little to the PKK, no operations no nothing, Turkey has stated this diplomaticaly on many ocasions.
  • PKK on many ocasions commited actions in exchange of wepons or money for the regional countries. When Syria needed people to damage/destroy/slow down the Southeastern Anatolia Project, they used the PKK. I do not know how citable this is but it is logical if you think about it.
  • --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 03:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• More recently, however, countries which formerly did little to curb the presence of the PKK in their territory and sometimes even supported the organization, have changed their policies.
  • Greece somewhat-openly supported the PKK to the point of training PKK millitants. It is however covert ops leaked to the media and hence perhaps should be mentioned as a "claim" under a conspiracy section or something like that. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 03:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• The PKK have participated in a variety of activities recognized as illegal; they've also borrowed some tactics used by terrorist or guerrilla organizations. Generally PKK was very eclectic. PKK used everything in its disposal. However, there are patterns in PKK activities.
  • This is a general statement. PKK did not invent every tactic it used if any. can be re writen in a more npov manner as below.
  • The PKK have participated in a variety of activities and borrowed some tactics used guerrilla warfare tactics. While the PKK was very eclectic using everything in its disposal, there are recognisable patterns in PKK activities.
  • If PKK used conventional warfare the conflict would have lasted perhaps several days. PKK used guerrilla warfare and guerrilla warfare tends to have a very complicated patern if at all.
  • --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 03:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• With the change of world conjecture and security systems increase control of the boarders ended with the failure to moving into third phase. This is rectified by moving into intifada structure. Through intifada PKK aims to became legalized and gain legal protection from its past activities.
  • I already cited this, though my cited information was removed by my stalkers you are familiar with FrancisTyers. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 03:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
• PKK within its life time has been a tool or source of many international conflicts.
• By defining the problem in terms of Turkey's handling of the PKK, the EU's lack of support for alternative solutions to the Kurdish problem creates the perception of a clash of civilizations between the EU and Turkey and it also demonstrates a profound lack of understanding for the cultural problems that are involved in the Kurdish situation.
• As a multicultural country with more than 30 ethnic groups all (except some of the Kurds) peacefully coexisting and working together in spite of discomfiture with the Turkey's stance on political and cultural matters, EU's inability to support more pluralistic views is perceived by many of the citizens of Turkey as pushing the tired argument of cultural incompatibility -- a clash of cultures.
• The EU's lack of contact with groups promoting "diversity in unity" in Turkey is not explainable.
• Also the facts regarding the EU visits covering only southeast provinces, or claims of Human Rights Court regarding Öcalan's trail, or member states unwillingness to take a pose against the PKK have been used as defending arguments of this incompatibility.
• The Turkish political terminology "unrealistic expectations", is becoming commonly used for EU's demands originating European political dysfunction on inability to separate between "Human Rights" and political and cultural arguments of violence, ^section:stance against terrorism.

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You have removed over god knows how many bytes of data. Large scale removals are bad and inflames/angers/annoys others in this case me, so please dont. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 02:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi, please refer to: WP:CITE thanks :) - FrancisTyers 03:48, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Disputed edits can be removed immediately, removed and placed on the talk page for discussion

Please don't restore uncited material. - FrancisTyers 03:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Some of the material you removed is not disputed and is cited. Drug trafficing and extorsion activity of PKK is cited by UK/US govs. And those are perfectly neutral sources. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 13:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

UK and US Govts are not at all neutral sources! They are both in NATO with Turkey and both have added PKK onto their terrorism lists. Intergovernmental bodies like European Court of Human Rights, United Nations bodies and organisations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are neutral. 81.174.159.170 19:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Also I strongly dispute the relevance of the entire section on 'PKK-linked parties' in Turkey but as it is large I do not want to just delete it. That phrase implies to me that they are parties with involvement or funding from PKK. It is more true to say that these are parties with policies that support Kurds. Perhaps many of their voters would also support PKK but that does not mean they are PKK-linked. 81.174.159.170 19:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Here: these cites a large number of items. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 14:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1482808,00.html
• http://www.ict.org.il/organizations/orgdet.cfm?orgid=20
• www.ag.gov.au 15 December 2005 - PKK LISTED AS TERRORIST ORGANISATION
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/358115.stm
  • Ocalan: Greeks supplied Kurdish rebels
  • Aka other countries aid PKK
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/535312.stm
  • From his prison cell, he [Ocalan] has issued a series of orders to his Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4305692.stm
  • Enis Berberoglu, who has written several books on the subject, agrees: "Turkey was deeply involved in drug smuggling in the mid 1990s. There was a very strong mafia here at that time and the PKK (the Kurdish rebel group the Kurdistan Workers Party) used to take protection money in return for letting them operate in the east," he said.
  • Drug ties
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/234429.stm
  • Kurdish rebel leader Abdullah Ocalan has called his own guerrillas "murderers" and says he wants nothing more to do with their tactics.
  • In an interview with a Turkish newspaper on Sunday, Mr Ocalan also blamed his former right-hand man Semdin Sakik for PKK atrocities. In particular he absolved himself of responsibility for the killings of Turkish primary school teachers in southeastern Anatolia.
    • No comment. PKK millitants are murderers according to their own leader. Also acknowleges the killings of teachers. Thourgh BBC I am citing PKK as referance btw not Turkish or UK gov.
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3200907.stm
  • The main militant Kurdish group in Turkey says it is ending a unilateral ceasefire declared after the capture of its leader, Abdullah Ocalan, four years ago.
• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4688575.stm
  • An explosion on a minibus in the Turkish Aegean resort of Kusadasi has killed at least five people, including one British and one Irish woman
  • Their overall aim is to force the Turkish government to grant autonomy to the predominantly Kurdish south-east of the country, but the means to that end appears to be to strike at the tourism industry - the life blood of the Turkish economy, our [BBC's] correspondent says.

--Cool Cat^Talk|@ 14:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

References are important but you will never achieve perfect objectivity. Can we not have a side-by-side comparative presentation of different points of view on the main page? This will enable viewers to see each side of the case, and how their points of view are informed. Don't strip the cogs off the wheel here. Rather preserve them. Maggie Thatcher used to refer to Nelson Mandela as "that terrorist". The wheels of time move.

Vandalism through -Pending citation-

When I look at the document I recognize that every sentence that builds the information regarding to the violent activities of PKK, including the timeline which its facts were scrutinized couple archives ago, assigned as "needs citation". Now, they are removed from the document. It is funny that an organization that is accepted by EU and USA as terrorist is going to be ripped of its references of violence from this document. I believe this is a form of vandalism. Just from the historical perspective; the same person was deleting the content until the text became purely informative, to fit into NPOV. After the text become only factual, we begin to see elimination of the facts using the argument of citation. Elimination of information with a specific goal (cleansing), needs to be deal as vandalism. I would like to hear voices on this issue, for the sake of wikipedia.--tommiks 09:55, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I am editing in good faith. Please try and be civil when discussing on the talk page and please don't attack me on my user talk page. Wikipedia policy states that Disputed edits can be removed immediately, removed and placed on the talk page for discussion (WP:CITE) so please don't try and mis-characterise my edits as vandalism. Thankyou :) - FrancisTyers 14:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes I feel you are working in good faith however please do not do anything contradicting IRC discussions. At least do so after a discussion here. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 14:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to eliminate the tempalte on neutrality and factuality.

With all the uncited material moved out of the page, I propose this template should be removed from this page. --tommiks 11:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

No need to rush, this page will be a featured candidate (elite article) when I am done with it. Any and everyones help to that end is greatly apriciated. I havent even begun editing this one ;) --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 12:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid the whole thing is still disputed and uncited. Please do not remove the template without consensus. - FrancisTyers 14:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The template is a minor issue. It will vanish definately, just not today... --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 15:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Explanations about 81.213.226.95 and GunduzIcen --can be see in history tab--

I had forgotten to log in and had added a sentence "The Organization is considered as terrorist by Turkey, EU and USA." into the first paragraph before I saw the sentence "The PKK is defined as a terrorist organisation internationally by a number of states and organisations." So 81.213.226.95 is me. After I saw the latter sentence, I deleted what I had added. GunduzIcen 22:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Language

The language in this article is terrible to say the least. I have a modest proposal for improvement:130.132.62.92 01:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• Ban all Turkish ultra-nationalists (i.e. all Turkish users on en) from editing this article until they can demonstrate their ability to write a coherent English sentence.
• Until that time, replace the article with "All Kurds are terrorist dogs and deserve only slaughter. The same goes for their children." While keeping the gist of the current article, this version is more aesthetically pleasing.

Kind regards, 80.202.25.17 14:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with your evaluation of the quality of prose, however your remedy is rather extreme to say the least. - FrancisTyers 14:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC):Oh, I've a better idea. Let the ultra-super English speakers try to improve the language of the article instead of complaining about it. However, this might be more challenging then ridiculing about Turkish users, so they may not want to do. levent 16:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Please try and be civil, both 80.202.25.17 and levent. levent, I'm sorry if you took my criticism of the quality of the prose as ridiculing Turkish users. You might be interested to know that the article wasn't entirely written by Turkish users, I have a number of lines and some Kurdish users have a number of lines too. A less confrontational approach might help you when dealing with users with conflicting points of view. - FrancisTyers 16:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

No I did not. My answer was only intended to 80.202.25.17, I'm sorry if it seems otherwise. And he sure got the gist of the article wrong, forcing me to think he even not read it. levent 01:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Roj TV is a pure violent racist fascist propaganda (similar to what Gobbels did in WW2) media, whose activities can be classified as helping to the American imperialism (the only American-supporter in the world) to conquer Iraq, keeping feodal pressure on Kurdish people, hindering economical and scientific development of Kurdish people, in accordance with the efforts of supporting feodalism.

Today the ONLY problem of Kurdish people is racism and feodalism. The feodal sheiks who have almost infinite power over Kurdish people, are working hard to sustain their authority, by hindering economical, scientific and philosophical development of Kurdish people. This requires, by its nature, usage of violence. But violence against people. In its 20 year history, PKK has NEVER attacked to feodal sheiks. Instead, PKK aims to guarantee survive of feodalism in Kurdish regions, by keeping traditional feodal items in Kurdish culture (Kurdistan is the only region in Turkey, where killing an innocent daughter is culturally promoted) in the name of cultural freedom, and of course by applying terror over mostly Kurdish and also Turkish people.

All these prove that, unfortunately, Roj TV, or DTP or PKK etc. all dominant Kurdish groups (they are dominant because they are fed by feodal sheiks) are fascists (their socialist names are nothing but fake) and they are the REAL enemies of Kurdish people and Kurdish socialist movement.

That would depend on who Kurds would want to vote for. Maybe they would prefer these parties to the terrorist PKK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.206.41.58 (talk) 11:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

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I do hope that this would be satisfactory for you to see that a "Turkish Ultra-nationalist" is able to write, read and understand the text as you do. There are lots of stuff to criticize on this page, but one of the biggest faults is the term of "kurdistan region of Turkey". Anyone interested in this article or willing to add some of his knowledge on the issue must know and realize that there never had been any "kurdistan region" on Anatolian lands, even in Ottoman Empire times and before; and also any part of Turkish Republic never existed and named as "kurdistan". But it is a fact that there are some cities inwhich people from Kurdish ethnicity lives as major numbers in total population ratio by there. It is again a fact that those cities that i have identified in sociodemographic behaviours in the sentence before, are mostly in eastern site of Turkey. But one should never ignore that the major count of Kurdish citizens of Turkey do live in İstanbul and other big cities like Ankara, Adana, Mersin ... etc; not in Diyarbakır. In Diyarbakır and the other cities which are thought and imagined as the parts of virtual "kurdistan" are dominated just by the ratios in numbers. In the end of my correction note; PKK and other legal or illegal organisations related to PKK are purely terrorist groups. It is not associated with socialism, fascism; terror is terror, not more. And as the former citizens of Turkish Republic we will never let their dreams to come true. There ahead a nightmare is waiting for them in future. 14-04-06 CANCAN

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Can someone please tell me where I can complain about these intolerant users? Ozgurgerilla 02:03, 26 April 2006

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intolerant users??? you have interesting ideas on the issue. how u dare to judge people and their corrections when you are claiming a legal and rightful country as a "fake fascist regime" on your own page. you, espcially you, had already lost your objectivity and the right to criticise others. what if others would have complained about your intolerance ... let's be serious. CANCAN

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You in your previous reply said that one of the biggest faults here is the term Kurdistan. Forget the fact that users here refer to the term Kurdistan as the geographical and cultural region in Middle East inhabited predominantly by Kurds. You said there never has been any kurdistan region on anatolian lands; I would like to prove you wrong, [Kingdom of Kurdistan]. It seems that the economic corruption doesn't bother you as much as the term Kurdistan being used which is entirely related to freedom of speech, something Turkey is desperate for. So seriously, lets be serious and look at facts: [Orhan Pamuk]

Also, could you please stop inserting horizontal lines, you are no special to do it. Ozgurgerilla 11:50, 27 April 2006

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do you mean the attempt to establish a kingdom which is supported by european countries to have a country in their controls on todays Iraq after the world war, before they had shared all the ottoman empire? an attempt to last in two years. do not forget that united kingdom had a dream to be the second roman empire in world war 1; and they always used the tactic which can be told as "divide et impera !", divide and control... and that sociopolitical organisation was on the ıraq terrority not on anatolia, according to the source that you gave the link of. the second attempt on southeastern Turkiye was not accepted and not known by any country as legal and lasted in three months, it was just a rebellion as todays pkk attempts. and in your reply you mentioned that "geographical and cultural region in Middle East inhabited predominantly by Kurds" is called as kurdistan, so if this hypothesis is true do you name the regions in Germany which are inhabited predominantly by Turks, as Turkistan? and if you had read my previous reply with attention you would have seen that i had mentioned that there were lots of faults to criticise not only the term of "kurdistan". finally if i am to explain why do i use these lines, it is just to separate my ideas from yours CANCAN

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Maybe if the Ottoman Empire gave the Kurds the freedom to study their history and to learn & speak Kurdish then Kurds would of had a country and not an attempt. Kurds do not trust the Turkish government because through out the history Turks have used the Kurds as slaves, killed ordinary people and called them PKK members Semdinli, discriminated them, the Turkish government also did no economic or any other kind of improvements for the southeast of Turkey for I don't know how many centuries simply because that is a Kurdish region. EU and the Ottomans used the Kurds for years and years so don't try to show EU and hide the Ottoman mistakes which are bigger then all. Finally, Unfortunately, Kurdistan is only the name of a geographic region and a cultural region in Middle East inhabited predominantly by Kurds. It is not an independent state. If the regions you're talking about are predominantly inhabited by Turks you should feel free to call it what ever you want, Turkistan, Turkmenistan, Turdistan, Ottomans, Pashas.. What ever you wish to call it. But the difference from the Turks inhabiting in Germany (which I can easily say 4 million of 5 are not Turks and Kurds) and the Kurds in Turkey is the population. There is more then 20 million in Turkey and approximately 5 million in Germany. Also on this, you should check out some unbiased history and war studies books. All of them use the term Kurdistan as the geographic region inhabited predominantly by Kurds which makes me think your opposition to the term comes from nationalist obsessions. No, you've said "one of the biggest faults is the term 'Kurdistan'". You can obviously express your thoughts and feelings on the matter but don't try to stop others from using any term because everyone should have the freedom to use any word. The lines are also very disturbing because it fades the standard talk page template which makes it difficult to spot the sections from your comments. I would like to kindly ask you to stop using them. Ozgurgerilla 07:07, 01 May 2006

Dear Ozgur, The Porte had a millet based system where subjects were classified according to their religions instead of ethnic origins. As far as I know, there was no explicit ban on the study of Kurdish language/history. It was the Republic that identified Kurdish nationalism as a threat to its fragile unity and violently suppressed Kurdish culture for decades to come. But thanks to the EU process we now have TV and radio stations broadcasting in Kurdish. Private institutions are allowed to offer courses in Kurdish language. There are foundations devoted to advancement of Kurdish studies. I realize that the picture is far from rosy. Fanatics on both sides are continuing to do their best to reverse this course and prevent Turkey from joining EU. In a very perverted way, they are helping each other and unwittingly serving other causes. The Kurdish nationalism in this sense, just like its evil-twin, is doomed to failure and bring more tragedies because the Turkish Armed Forces, the second largest army of NATO, will never allow a new nation-state rise on the Turkish soil. So, it is time for reasonable people on both sides to drop heated rhetoric and empty dreams so that we can focus on pursuing further democratization of the Republic and advancing human rights for all. (Have you heard of anything about the other oppressed religious, ethnic, sexual minorities in Turkey?) Nevertheless, I apologize for the tangent and wholeheartedly wish that voices of "reason" will find a place on these pages as well. Victor

Hello Victor, whatever The Porte's system was, it is important how much you care about the suppression towards the Kurdish people. Most Kurds see this as a struggle for independence and every unbiased history book states that the suppression by Ottoman and Turkey was/is harsh. Before classifying people with prejudice AND before giving compliments to the Turkish Armed Forces (which makes be reconsider if your name is really victor) I suggest you look deeper to the problem. Why Kurdish politicians, authors, musicians, directors, civilians are executed, tortured or exiled to all around the world. Why the name Ahmet Kaya was stopped to be given to a park in Adana (recent) why Kurdish isn't on TV? why the national TV doesn't care about the millions of Kurds and still puts maximum 1 hour of Kurdish and bans everything in Kurdish, controls the media and puts the Kurdish that it wants to be broadcasted. This isn't a process this isn't a success this is making things worser; and this is the reason why EU wouldn't accept Turkey the actions are not to give Kurds independence is just to shut them up until they join EU. Thank you victor.

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Actually, much of the above is not true. The Ottomans (in contrast to Turkey) did not in any way restrict Kurdish culture and language, and in fact in schools instruction was given in the local language. The Ottomans did expend a degree of effort trying to sedentarize nomadic Kurds, but that is hardly a policy designed to discriminate against a particular ethnic group. It is largely due to the Ottoman legacy of categorizing people by religion rather than ethnicity that has led to the situation where until recently, many or most Turks were unaware of a separate Kurdish ethnicity - they were thought of as "Mountain Turks". As long as the most prominent Kurdish representative group is the Marxist separatist terrorist PKK, progress for the Kurds will be jeopardized. Turkey has a very long history of foreign-backed terror organizations used as a mechanism for territorial aggrandizement at its expense - so while the Turkish attitude toward the Kurds may seem paranoid, it is not without basis. I have to wonder what would happen to the US "English Only" movement if there was a Mexican terrorist organization fighting to annex the American Southwest. Once violence and terror is renounced I don't see why there is any reason to doubt that whatever restrictions there are left on Kurdish culture shouldn't disappear. As it is, it is difficult to deny that a lot of progress has been made in recent years. But statements above like "Why Kurdish politicians, authors, musicians, directors, civilians are executed, tortured or exiled to all around the world" are patently false and totally unconstructive - can anyone name the last Kurd executed? Is anyone aware that two Presidents of Turkey have been Kurds? Jpiccone 14:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

How about Yilmaz Guney, Ahmet Kaya, Sivan Perwer these aren't artists who are exiled right? only two-faced singers like Ibrahim Tatlises stayed in Turkey. Erdal Eren, Deniz Gezmis, Yusuf Aslan, Huseyin Inan these aren't people who are executed right? There was one Kurdish president who was going to give Kurds their rights but the military of Turkey did not let him. İsmet İnönü, just like many other Kurdish people in Turkey who think being a Kurd is been a seperatist have killed thousands of Kurds just like Inonu did in Dersim. There is a doubt of Kurdish human rights even when terror and violence stops in Turkey because before 1970's there wasn't any PKK but there was the terror of the Turkish army attacking Kurdish cities like Dersim, Maras, Diyarbakir. Restrictions are active and would be active within Turkey one way or the other way towards the Kurds because Turkey is afraid of its "minorities" becoming majorities. Ozgur Gerilla 18:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Once violence and terror is renounced I don't see why there is any reason to doubt that whatever restrictions there are left on Kurdish culture shouldn't disappear.

Ozgur you may want to read this article. Seems EU's support to terrorism also coming to an end:

Lagendijk: Kurdish People In Turkey Should Tell PKK To Stop This Old Fashioned Tactics

--Gokhan 07:58, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Erdal Eren, Deniz Gezmis, Yusuf Aslan, Huseyin Inan were all Turks, you idiots!

Dear Özgürgerilla

As You Know : Yılmaz Güney was an actor and he had a lot of fans till he killed a judge while he was drunk and escape from TURKEY.Do you know ??

Dear Özgürgerilla ,

You dont live in Turkey , how can you know the situation in Turkey ? You ask about siwan perver , Siwan Perver gives a concert on 2006 summer and ı think there will be an another one on 2007 summer with Sezen Aksu . Yes , he is still alive nobody kills him for his songs or concerts .Please be realistic , TURKEY is land of TURKS and TURK is not a name of race, TURK is a name of nation.

Disputes

What's the problem here? Aucaman^Talk 06:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Various things, basically the whole page, here are some egregious examples:

• In its activities main goal was to alienate the people from the state through pushing security forces into more and more overt and repressive countermeasures.
• Given the fact that the majority of the people are very resilient to the effects of the political violence, the young people whom their stable personality did not develop forms a high risk group.
• When these ideas were falsified, either this realization pushes the young to become a member of the activity group (risk seeking) or generate tendencies towards suicide, feelings of insecurity, problems with authority and lack of social integration.

The whole thing reads like an Op-Ed. - FrancisTyers 23:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Those are also examples for the other two tags. Are you a native English speaker? - FrancisTyers 08:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

dead links and stuff...

(I have preserved the entirety of the following unsigned IP msg, while reformatting and annotating it, in-line, to make it more coherant (especially in light of the changed geography of the article since the now year-and-a-half-old version that the IP refers to) and less misleadingly distracting. --Jerzy•t 19:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC))

Several of the US and UK links in the [section] "Websites with criticism of the PKK[", under its "]governmental:" section [heading] are now dead.
[Going forgivably off-topic, with some slight humorous intent:] Coincidence, or a result of the Kurdish guerillas now being a part of tne Anglo-American strategy against Iran?...
[Going completely off-topic, with presumable PoV-warrior intent:]
The PKK is now threatening more attacks in Iran, and according to this Aljazeera article they're militant feminists too. They just might be the perfect vangaurd for the neo-con transformation of the Middle East! Now the only question is - will NATO still have Turkey this Thanksgiving if those pesky Kurds keep getting in the whey?!
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.51.225 (talk) 23:13, 6 May 2006 (UTC); housekeeping touchup with reformatting, and bracketed, bold, and/or struck-thru text, added by Jerzy•t 19:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC).

I do not see how this is relevant to the integrity of the article. And with the Iraq war one thing is clear, the NATO is not the puppet of the US. --Cat out 22:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Photos

Why the photos removed? These photos are real and has no copyrihgt problem. Ruzgar 20:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Copyrights are a delicate process. I am sure the photo is real, however I do not believe it is aproporate in the article.

Who has taken the photos? You? The Turkish Government? It is likely by the Turkish Army. From what I know, photos taken by the Turkish Army is not automaticaly released into the public domain.

Furthermore I do not believe a picture is ncecesary to express the horror PKK had commited and frankly a statistics on their activity would be more encyclopedic.

--Cat out 22:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

This photo taken by Turkish police. It is published all goverment sites. And it has no copyright problem. And if you are thinking Wikipedia is not a shock site. Please Armenian GenocideRuzgar 14:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

This photo should have a caption explaining what on earth it has to do with the PKK. For the time being, I'm removing it. mgekelly 11:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm here to remove all pictures that are inserted to the article for propaganda purposes. Ozgur Gerilla 18:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Then I remove your propaganda words. Calm down my friend these are the trues. Your leader Apo said "The way to the heaven pass through hell". Face with the trues.Ruzgar 02:29, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

right, im fed up with you. Ozgur Gerilla 12:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I am "fed up" with both of you. I have removed the image unless you can tell me a damn good reason how does it explain the PKK. --Cat out 17:59, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Coll cat go the Armenian Genocide article and remove the photos and then come and fed up me. Ruzgar 01:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I want to inform you about the admin User:InShaneee

"This is your only warning. Continue to add this picture to articles and you will be blocked. --InShaneee 23:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)"

This admin has treaten me showing no reason why should I have to remove this photo. Ruzgar 18:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

List of PKK killings

Is there a complete list of PKK killings (military+civilian), like a timeline or something? If no, should it be in this article or in another one? --Gokhan 12:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know there are no complete lists. The one in the Civilian_casualties_caused_by_PKK page is also incomplete.--Hattusili 20:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Timeline is ugly. If you can cite a source that lists the death toll, I can come up with a graph and a proper list. --Cat out 18:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

About the image

"NPOV" means "neutral point of view". Placing an image at that at the top of the article is unacceptable. Why? Because we should not sway the reader into believing one POV or the other, it's for them to decide whether the PKK is an organization whose sole purpose is killing babies or not. See Wikipedia is not a soapbox, i.e. propaganda or advocacy. That is why the image should not be re-added. —Khoikhoi 23:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely positively agree with you. On top of that, this being an unbiased environment, the exact same rule should apply for Armenian Genocide page, don't you agree??? --Memzo 21:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above Armanalp 17:22, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right. I noticed that the article at the French Wikipedia doesn't have images. However, you're probably going to have to discuss it with the folks over at the talk page. Good luck. —Khoikhoi 22:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Khoikhoi where is your "NPOV" idea in Armenian Genocide article. Please go that article and show your "NPOV".

This photo has no copyright problems, it is reality and it will be published here. Sorry but you can't do anything for this my friend. Your admin friends also cannot help you. Sorry :( Ruzgar 19:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I personally think that the photos should be removed from that article, but there's no way that's ever gonna happen. Why? Go check out the discussion page and see for yourself. You still haven't provided me a reason why that image should be in the article. —Khoikhoi 23:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You still haven't provided me a reason why that image should not be in the article. Erdemsenol 00:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I did. Read Wikipedia is not a soapbox. —Khoikhoi 05:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a soapbox. But, by censoring information, you are making it into a soapbox Khoikhoi. I am not a registered user, therefore will not interfere with the article. But, I feel obliged to say that it is an act of propaganda to censor accurate information, which in this case is the picture. Please do not act out of bias here in Wikipedia. Thank you. --88.224.134.89 12:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The image can go in the article on Conflict in south-eastern Turkey. It has no place in this article. Lets look at other "terrorist" group articles for prescedent: IRA (no death photos), LTTE (no death photos), EZLN (no death photos), FARC (no death photos)... etc. Go and work on Conflict in south-eastern Turkey. - FrancisTyers 13:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

You published cartoons of Mohammed(S.A.V), you published photos in Armenian Genocide article in the name of democracy and free speech. The this photo is published sorry my friend you cant do anything for that.

In the case of the Mohammed cartoons, there was a consensus to have the image up. In the case of the Armenian Genocide article, I agree that the images should be removed, but nothing can be done now because the page is protected. —Khoikhoi 15:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I have semi-protected the article, so it would be easier for you to settle the differences without attacks of sock-puppets, etc. If needed, I could fully protect the article until the differences would be settled. If you ask my own opinion as an editor, I believe that the image should go from the top right corner of the article, since the stated goal of the party is not killing babies. I, personally, would not see problems in putting the image somewhere down, e.g. to illustrate the Effects section. abakharev 21:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that this image is currently deleted due to its lack of usable copyright status. The uploader keeps claiming that because the Turkish government made it, it is free, but to my knowledge Wikipedia currently does not acknowledge that claim. --InShaneee 00:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The Turkish Government has released all rights from the picture, as Ruzgar has said. So, it can easily fall into this category:

OR

I can see no acceptable reason for deleting it. --88.240.144.13 16:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Because there is no proof that the Turkish government has released it into the public domain outside of Ruzgar's claims. --InShaneee 16:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Anon, the case of the copyright status work of the US government was thoroughly studied by Wikimedia m:Legal department. The case of the work by the Turkish government was not studied by Wikimedia's lawyers. Yo may want to contact m:Legal department and check the situation with them. abakharev 01:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Why even bother? I already explained to him that "Wikipedia is not a soapbox", but he keeps pointing me to the Armenian Genocide article. That article seems to have a lot of different exceptions to the rule, but if you look at the Hamas article, do you see a picture of dead bodies at the top of the page? How many times do I have to tell you that it's not our job to sway the reader to one side or the other? —Khoikhoi 02:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

For a similar discussion see Talk:Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Image:Wolyn1943.jpg, Talk:Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army#Survey. What to do with the Image:Wolyn1943.jpg? and Massacre_of_Poles_in_Volhynia#Massacres where the image eventually landed. abakharev 03:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This picture has no copyright problems. It is taken by Turkish police and it is published by Turkish Goverment to the public. I ask InShaneee, you delete every photo by published American Goverment license? Because 90% of photos in Wikipedia claimed that "this image has no copyright problems" only by their uploaders. Inshanee please ask every user who added a photo of USA. And also look at this Avoid Copyright Paranoia .

This photo is important because that explains the PKK's brutality. And also it explains PKK is not a kurdish freedom organisation. The baby killed here is a kurdish baby. Pkk want to show them the defender(!) of Kurds. But they can't even speak in the name our Kurdish brothers and sisters. Wikipedia published cartoons because they claimed without cartoon nobody understand this article. Without this photo noboby understand what the PKK did.

InShaneee can remove photos in Armenian Genocide article. But I think InShaneee is busy with blocking Turkish users. And I also inform you Inshaneee blocken me with this reason "this photo is NPOV, this photo is Copyright problems". Of course photos cannot be NPOV, photos are photos and they are reality. You can't give a comment to photo. And as you can see above it has no copyrihgt problem. Simply InShanee censor me.

Also I inform you about InShaneee and Khoikhoi. They work like a team. The InShaneee threaten me and block me then a one minute later Khoikhoi add a message here. They make that because they say when they vandalise this page "see talk page". Because of my block I can't write here. Simply they censor me.

As you can see above nobody can show a reason to block this photo.

Ruzgar 04:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Ruzgar, I already explained to you why the image can't be up there. Stop telling me about the Armenian Genocide page, no one will ever get the images to be removed there, see the comments on the talk page if you want to know why. I said very clearly, we're not supposed to sway the reader to one side or the other, but you continue to ignore me. This is a neutral encyclopedia, not a place for propaganda or advocacy. And yet you still don't understand that. —Khoikhoi 04:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Show me a reason then remove this image. You can't censor Wikipedia. Ruzgar 04:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Three reasons:

1. Wikipedia is not a soapbox - a place for propaganda or advocacy
2. You're the only one who wants the image up, there's no consensus on it, unlike the Mohammed cartoons
3. This is a neutral encyclopedia, it's up for readers to decide whether the PKK does nothing but kill babies, not for you to shove it in people's faces.

—Khoikhoi 04:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

1. That is not a soapbox(you dont show a difference between this photo and the photos in Armenian Genocide article). That is not a propaganda that is a reality.
2. Wikipedia is not a democracy project. Because of that the numbers are not important. 300 people claim that the world is not turning. But one photo can prove the world is turning.
3. You are the last one who can defend neutrality of encylopedia. Also the people can decide in Armenian Genocide article without photo is realy Turks are killer or not. Wikipedia has same rules for all articles. And if the rules say the photos in Armenian Genocide article are not a soapbox, this photo is also not a soapbox. The rules are not change article to article. Ruzgar 04:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

1. For the last time, stop pointing me to that article. I'm aware that the pictures are up, I think they should be removed, but there is strong opposition to do so is my guess. It seems that that article is an exception, but look at the Hamas article. Do you think it's ok if I slap an image of a dead body at the top, saying, "victims of the Palestinian terrorists?"
2. Ok, let me put it this way: you've been reverted by about 5 different users. If I was in the same position, I wouldn't try to continue inserting it. —Khoikhoi 04:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
3. Almost all articles about terrorist groups aren't going to have images demonizing the organization at the top. Look at Hezbollah—where are the dead babies in the article?

Khoikhoi you are realy a smart guy. First you said this has a copyright problem and with help of your admin friends you delete this photo without any reason. Then you said this photo is not "neutral". But you cant prove it. Now you are tring to use my muslim feelings. But that doesnt work on me my friend. You can freely add photos of Hamas in Hamas article. Because that is not a soapboxing.

And about the Armenian Genocide article I don't see your comments which supporting the removal of these photos in that article talk page. If you really wrote such a comment here please give a link. My friend why are you showing your "neutral" feeling only in Turkish related articles?

As I mentioned in the above this not a soapboxing or a propaganda. Unless you give a logic reason I add this photo and you cant do anything except vandalism. Ruzgar 16:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Do not make personal attacks please. You want the image up for the sole purpose of demonizing the PKK, and that's not going to happen. Ciao. —Khoikhoi 17:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you remember the photos from the 1990's of a Turkish soldier who, with a gloating look, holds the heads of two beheaded Kurdish guerillas? Should that photo, or other photos of Kurdish casualities be placed on the top of the Turkey or the Turkish Armed Forces article? Bertilvidet 17:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Is this the image you're talking about? —Khoikhoi 17:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, thanks. As from any armed conflict you can find lots of horrible images demonizing either side. Bertilvidet 17:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

About Asala + Armenian Link

I just read a book of Erhan Başyurt, which can be translated as "Adopted Armenian Orphins - Secret Lives" (ISBN 975-6054-26-3). In that book there's a section on relations between these secret Armenians living in Turkey and PKK / Abdullah Öcalan. Names of some active PKK terrorists of Armenian decent listed as well.

Some points in that book are interesting, like joint plans of carving Armenia and Kurdistan out of Turkey, PKK's increasing terrorist activities in northern east Anatolia towards old Armenian territories, cooperation for Ağrı and Dersim revolts during 20's and 30's... Support of Lebanese and Syrian Armenians...

I think this aspect of PKK should be added to the article. Does anybody else has sources on this relationship? --Gokhan 17:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It should be spelt "orphans" not "orphins." I wouldn't object to having such a section in this article, if the source it comes from is valid, of course. Hakob 18:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Armenian- PKK connection is partly a lie. Of course Armenia gives support to PKK but it can only be by funding PKK or by giving them political support in the world arena. Nothing more. Aremian PKK theory was created by people that want to show Kurdish minority innocent. They wanted to say "Look... Kurdish friends don't want to kill us, Armenians want to!". Sadly, some Turkish citizens believed in such lies. Nationalist MHP party used this propaganda to gain votes of Kurds too. Deliogul 23:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Conflict in south-eastern Turkey

Go here. - FrancisTyers 00:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Terrorism

Kurdish Workers Party (PKK) is an internationally recognized "terrorist" organization aiming to destroy the authority of a unified democratic country, which cost more than 30.000 Turkish casualities. Stop sugarcoating it as a "militant" organization.

Fortunately, calling an organisation a terrorist is labeling and that is unacceptable in Wikipedia. The information about the casulities is also in the article. Users here try to be objective rather then force you to an opinion. Ozgur Gerilla 23:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The article states "The PKK is listed as a terrorist organisation internationally by a number of states and organisations, including the USA and the EU[1]" This is factual and not NPOV. That in my mind is sufficient. Let the facts speak for themselves. AndrewRT 23:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I have always argued that facts should be included to articles. I have no problem with that sentence because it's a fact. But introducing the organisation as a "terrorist" rather then "militant" is an opinion and moreover not a good way to describe this organisation as some see them as freedom fighters. Ozgur Gerilla 00:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Every simple life form who sees PKK or KADEK or KONGRA-GEL whatsoever as freedom fighters is either a complete idiot without a single cell of neuron present in their body, or so ignorant that should not even talk about the topic before learning something about humanity or a terrorist him/herself. Can you imagine more than 30.000 casualities at once? Kertenkelebek^(talk) 11:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not that idiot actually, they hope one day their sucking up to Europeans or Americans will result in some kind of country or land to them. Off course westerners in return want to settle their grudge towards us, so as we say in Turkish "Şıracının şahidi bozacı"... --Gokhan 04:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Which means they're so day-dreaming that simply collects them all under the same category as the first one mentioned above. :) Kertenkelebek^Ⓣ 10:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey guys, why don't you two develop a website and share your ideas there because it's simply not logical to discuss your political opinions here. Ozgur Gerilla 02:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I don't have time for that. Also, if it's pro-Turkish and against Kurds nobody reads them anyway... we're the bad people right? :) So instead I prefer to write comments in Wikipedia talk pages. That's more fun and fulfilling. But thanks for the nice idea. Maybe later. --Gokhan 07:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that we can conclude that the terrorist thing can be changed back into militant? It's pretty obvious that they're considered terrorists by most Western nations, but one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Please, let's preserve the neutrality of the article. --The Proletarian 08:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

If you call a group of terrorists killing innocent teachers, engineers, children,
women freedom fighters, well I advise you to think one more time.A.Gökmen 12:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The question we need to ask is "Does the PKK deliberately target innocents?". If so, then calling them a terrorist group would be FACT. I've never heard of people needing to fight for freedom from an oppressive regime of women and children. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.206.41.58 (talk) 12:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe this article! this is a masterpiece of wikipedia's hypocracy! you can't even call "terrorist" to a worldwide-known terrorist organization!!! shame on you wikipedia!!!Isatay 10:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Extremist, terrorist and freedom fighter. It is more about neutralith than advocating a perspective, really. -- Cat ^chi? 10:13, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Praise be to the great god of Neutrality, who's laws be must abide by so as not to offend terrorists and killers. Without thee, surely the truth will end up hurting some innocent murderer and make them cry. Such a tragedy must never come to pass! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.206.41.58 (talk) 11:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

the EU has now lifted its terrorism-labeling on the PKK —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.135.159 (talk) 14:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan be merged to Kurdistan Workers Party

The US for one considers them the same thing. So does Turkey, Iran, and perhaps a long list of countries. Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan is as independent as Congo is democratic.

Granted this (Kurdistan Workers Party) artcle is a mess... this merge would be a step in the right direction.

--Cat out 02:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Organizations might be separate structures albeit being politically connected. Its well possible to have separate articles for organizations related to PKK (like ERNK, ARGK, etc.) without necessarily making any statement as to imply any differentation of political line. --Soman 19:20, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the organisation can be explained with a paragraph, both PKK and it have the same objectives, follow the same guy, operate in the same region, use identical tactics etc... Even the flag is almost identical. --Cat out 19:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Not the same organisation and it is only a POV without facts to say that they are the same. Khorshid 21:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Different organisations. Does not matter whether they are closely affiliated. The situation is further explained in the text of the article Behemoth 23:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Notable differences. Ozgur Gerilla 22:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose This will only help to decrease the number of armed militant Kurdish organizations in Wikipedia. --Gokhan 09:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose They're distinct Kurdish terrorist organizations nomatter how closely affiliated they are. For which they're expected to be affiliated since both are terrorist organizations. Kertenkelebek^(talk) 11:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose the PJAK is a distinct political and armed force, they may share some aspects of logistics, however many independence movements do the same, as do many countries, are the US and UK one?

Only PKK has been identified as terrorist, not PJAK. Khorshid 18:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't matter, we all know what they really are. However thanks to Wikipedia policies we cannot mention them as terrorists in the articles... we are allowed to use only "militant". It's really a disgrace for the real militant organizations... --Gokhan 12:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Not really, because introducing an organisation as 'terrorist' is the point of view of the editor and 'militant' isn't. Readers get to decide what the organisation is by reading the article and its history. Ozgur Gerilla 23:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes but this is only a talk page so don't worry. --Gokhan 05:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The talk page is here for us to "worry" about the article. Ozgur Gerilla 11:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes thanks. But I meant -> don't worry about PKK being called terrorist here. It's not possible to put it in the article anyway. Unfortunately. --Gokhan 12:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, what you know is true matey. Ozgur Gerilla 00:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Kurdish racism

PKK has nothing to do with socialism. They receive support from US (weapon and ammunation trade) and Northern Iraqi feudal lords.

and receiving support from US and Northern Iraqi feudal lords has nothing to do with a social system. Ozgur Gerilla 10:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

plus greece,plus noth cyprus, plus syria, plus Armenia...

anon user, you probably mean south cyprus, not north.. because north is Turkish :) --Gokhan 18:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

They are in fact marxists. Plus can you really support your statement of support from the US and "Northern iraqi feudal lords"?

now i dont know what you mean by "Northern iraqi feudal lords", care to specify? Do u have any names or evidence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.135.159 (talk) 14:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Where is the photo of killed babies..

Even in italy there was an advertisement in television showing killed baby by PKK and saying at the end "dont put blood on your spagettii". All of us know PKK is terorist organisation and attacked many vileages and killed many people over there. So where are the truths in this stupid article!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have many pictures which have copyrigth. Why are you removing?? Dont be shame because you are kurdish! Removing these picture means you are supporter of PKK. and it also means you are terrorist. And it means you are murder.

Times like this I wish there was no personal attack policy in Wikipedia so that I could clearly express my feelings on your comment. Ozgur Gerilla 23:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Over 35.000 people have been killed... PKK (freedom fighters !!!) still continues their attacks in eastern Turkey. I know wikipedia has to be neutral on everything, but when it comes to something sensitive like this you can't be neutral. OzgurGerilla or freeMilitant or whatever, i want you to be candidate of Sakharov Prize. with this effort and support to pkk, i'm sure you will get it from eu within years. (no offense)

Have you ever questioned why are they attacking? have you ever read Ismail Besikcis books? Lutfen, burdaki tartismalarinda kanit gosterirsen cok iyi olur; tartismalarina girerken ezbere konusmasan cok iyi olur burda insanlar ogrenmeye geliyor, kendini gelistirmeye hakarete ugramaya diyil. Ozgur Gerilla 01:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Herifler terorist de ondan! Cocuk, bebek, kadin olduruyorlar! Bunun bir bahanesi olabilir mi? Armanalp 17:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Have you ever read about Turkish Independence War? Ayrica Turkcen cok kotu. Profilindeki anadili Turkcedir maddesi dogru degil. Su yazdigin cumlelerde en az on tane hata var. Millete "sunu yapsan cok iyi olur, bunu yapsan cok iyi olur" kivaminda ayar vermeyi deneyecegine once adam gibi Turkce ogren. Dilini bile bilmedigin bir toplumu neden sahiplendigin ve koru korune savunman, teroristine bile sahip cikman aslinda kolayca aciklanabilecek bir durum. Genclik hezeyanlari, dusuk zeka duzeyinin insana verdigi cesaret vs...85.99.81.148 07:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Bir toplumu sahiplenmek gibi bir amacim yok. Ben o toplumda olusan sorunlari burada aciklamaya gayret gosteriyorum hem bir toplumun sorunlarini anlamak icin dilini bilmek gerekmiyor. Cunki sosyal sorunlarin cogu fiziksel iletisim halinde olusur. Gencligimi tartismalarinda kullanmanda senin acizligini gostertir. Ideolojik dogruluk ile dil arasinda kurdugun bag senin hakkinda bir aciklik verir. Esas konuyu saptirip onyargi ile olayi bana cevirmekde yobazlikdir. Umit ederim, bir gun insanlara musamaha gostermenin faydalarindan yararlanirsin. Sonucta, senin Turkcede mukemmel degil :). Ozgur Gerilla 09:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

No reasons can be an excuse for killing civilians (mainly Kurds) on purpose. Nobody has the right to say "we are killing civilians, torturing our own members but we have reasons for attacking".Ozgur please have a look at the Amnesty International or HRW records. --Hattusili 05:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Amnesty International criticizes both PKK and the Turkish Government! I know PKK isn't 100% pure and I am ready to criticise it. But it does stand for something in the Kurdish struggle, this implies, the difference between me and you guys; that I argue with no previous knowledge effecting my argument. If there is no excuse for killing civilians why don't you users who attack the PKK and the Kurdish people criticise your Army and Government who declares an ethnic group as terrorists. Ignorance, Ignorance. Ozgur Gerilla 11:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

---

The resource section requires an update

Turkey now allows Kurdish language channels, and state sponsored broadcasts are currantly being broadcast. A new bill was past allowing private broadcast as well,

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D4687417-BAB7-426A-9F30-8D16A9DEE206.htm

Its not enough but its a move in the right direction.. Personally I think this is Turkey best strategy for weakening the PKK, by treating the Kurds fairly, and reconising their identy.

The intro needs emphasis on terrorism

It's POV to arrange the words that way you did. It's much better to just state what the organization is, their goals, etc. And then talk about it's terrorist activies and the effect it's had in the past years. Please, just leave it the way it is. —Khoikhoi 17:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It is misleading to represent the organization and the goals, and only then mentioning its terrorist activities. It is mainly a terrorist organization, and only after saying it you should explain the goals, history and political actions. --Gabi S. 17:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a terrorist organization in the eyes of the various governments, but keep in mind that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. —Khoikhoi 18:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Just for you, I'll say it again: It is misleading to represent the organization and the goals, and only then mentioning its "freedom fighting" activities. It is mainly a "freedom fighting" organization (although seen otherwise by the US and the EU), and only after saying it you should explain the goals, history and political actions. --Gabi S. 19:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, and I never said that I see it as a freedom fighting organization. It's not misleading at all, but we don't want to sway to one POV or the other. Why should we have the government view go first? Do governments reflect worldwide view? No, not necessarily. Most Kurds aren't going to say PKK is a terrorist organizaiton. And BTW, why aren't these same standards applied to Lehi, for example?? —Khoikhoi 19:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you think that Kurds don't understand that the PKK is carrying out attacks that are seen as terrorism to outside observers? I think they understand. And you are completely wrong about Lehi and Etzel (aka Irgun). Every Israeli school textbooks describes these groups as "underground" terrorist organizations, and their actions as terrorism. This is also how they were seen by most of the Jewish population at that time. I have at home, for example, a book with sharp critisism of the King David bombing by Nathan Alterman, a leading figure at that time. Lehi and Etzel were terrorist organizations, as today are Hamas, Hezbollah, DFLP, PFLP, and many others. Yes, I support explicit designation of terrorist groups as such. To think that it's not NPOV is, in my opinion, a distortion of what NPOV was supposed to be. --Gabi S. 19:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course they do, but that doesn't mean we have to state it right at the beginning. As for Irgun, why is it that people are always trying to push the fact that people were warned before the King David Hotel bombing went off? What about the group that trys to prove that they weren't terrorists? As for Hezbollah (which doesn't even have the word "terrorist" in the intro), who do you think the Lebanese is getting aid from to help rebuild their homes? Just a bunch of terrorists.

No, it's not a distortion NPOV, it's a version of an article that lets the reader decide for themselves how they want to classify the PKK, not it a way were it's shoved in their faces. —Khoikhoi 20:01, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely preposterous. NPOV in wikipedia is having no political view on the subject. Calling an organisation a terrorist or a freedom fighter is having an opinion on the matter. Governments do not reflect all views and that's the best source people give who argue that these organisations are terrorist. Hezbollah and PKK aren't terrorist for many and many believe Turkey, USA, UK, Israel are state terrorist these are all opinions and NPOV is putting these all in the articles when describing peoples thoughts on the organisations. it's a good method used not to shove an opinion into users faces. Ozgur Gerilla 20:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Shove into users faces, ah? Did you look lately in Nakba or countless other articles that push an agenda while trying to look NPOV? That's that way it's done, and it needs to be done in the case of PKK. Otherwise you misrepresent them as a quiet political group that only several lines down the road happens to be called "terrorist" by "negligible" entities like the US and the EU. I think that my sentence order change was justified, and will do it again soon. --Gabi S. 15:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't get it, what's so bad about the Nakba article? Am I missing something here? I still fail to see how we are "misrepresenting" the PKK by not saying terrorist right near the very beginning. A bunch of governments recognize them as such, so what? Because of this, they therefore represent a worldwide point of view, or neutral point of view for that matter? BTW, have you seen the Al-Qaeda article? They mention the countries that recognize it as terrorist in the last sentence of the intro... —Khoikhoi 22:08, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that's amazing! I also saw the Hamas entry that mentions terrorism only halfway through the article, after a detailed explanation of its non-terrorist activities. It's very frustrating. I can't fight it, but I know that something is very wrong with this situation. There must be some way within the NPOV limits that allows clear categorization of good and bad. --Gabi S. 22:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that appears to be a recent change. It used to say it in the first paragrpah for awhile, but I personally think it should be in the 2nd or 3rd. I guess sometimes people can take things too far, but I still believe that it's POV have something like this. Do you think these children and their parents see the PKK as a terrorist organization, when they have banners of Abdullah Öcalan in their hand? My guess that they wouldn't be supporting Öcalan if they thought so. —Khoikhoi 22:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey Gabi, how about making the word Terrorist larger, change the colour and add italics to it to catch the readers eyes. Oh you know what would be cool? Having Öcalans picture and the word Terrorist animated. That would be so innovative. Ozgur Gerilla 00:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be funny if people lives were not involved. Since terrorists deliberatly attack unarmed and unprepared civilians, I would prefer the NPOV norm to be something like this:

Group X is a terrorist group... etc etc... Controversary: Some people claim that group X is just a political party / humanitarian aid group / whatever they call it... etc

Rather than this:

Group X is a political party / humanitarian aid group / whatever they call it... etc etc... oh, by the way, the US and some other loonies call them terrorists.

Am I asking for too much? --Gabi S. 09:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed you are asking for too much. Because introducing an organisation as "militant" is giving the reader a fact but instead saying "terrorist" or "freedom fighting" group then that is an absolute POV. I think that is the point you need to undertand. Ozgur Gerilla 10:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand what you say, but I see a contradiction between NPOV and clear facts. Striving for NPOV makes it undesirable to tell the readers, for example, that a certain group usually sends suicide bombers to kill unsuspecting civilians, even if it's the most important thing to know. Maybe I'm just fantasizing on a better world, where such distinctions are not contradictory. --Gabi S. 13:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

See that is looking at it from one angle. The fact is that many see groups such as this one as freedom fighters and provide facts such as the Semdinli bombing. Now just because of that people cannot go on the Turkish armys article and vandalise the page. Same goes for people who argue that it's a terrorist organisation. It's a Wikipedia rule we obey it. If you would like to take action I suggest you contact admin members. Ozgur Gerilla 13:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Since everyone has been adding their two cents in, I thought I would add mine... I am just going to make a proposal, tell me what u think.. What if we mentioned the definition of terrorism under international law (i don't have it at hand, but i will get back with it tomorrow) which basicly states that killing civilians and attacking civilian infrastructure for the aim of inducing fear is terrorism, BUT attacking the armed personnel of a country (police, army) cannot be in itself considered terrorism.. Sooo, I am suggesting that we try this... Intro, we keep the militant def, than right after a controversy section followed by this definition and a statement, approximately as PKK has been recognized as terrorist by many countries because of its targeting of civilian targets, but PKK maintains that these were part of a much wider conflict with TR State.. Since 2004, PKK has been refraining from attacking civilian targets and concentrating on attacks and low-intensity conflict with Turkish armed personnel to address these concerns, nevertheless there have been incidents where civilians were dragged into conflicts (bombings etc.) since then, which makes the controversy surrounding the definition of the nature of PKK's activities extremely difficult to establish.. and blah blah.. Of course citations will be needed at every other word, and the text will be proofread a hundred times, but u got the meaning of the text... Just brainstorming... So what do you think? Baristarim 05:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think what you wrote could go to the main part of the article. Because the main part of the article is to introduce the organisation and you only wrote the bombings and not the reasons- not the PKK aspect therefore that sentence wouldn't be appropriate in the main section. Your description isn't bad and can go under something else in the article. Ozgur Gerilla 08:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, you misunderstood me.. It was very late at night when I wrote it so, it might seem confusing.. :)) I didn't suggest that we put what I wrote in the intro.. I meant that we keep the intro with the militant word, and in a section close to the top (if it were at the bottom, it would be akin to claiming that such a controversy didn't exist), we put a section titled controversy / controversy surrounding the nature of PKK / Historical controversy about the nature of the PKK (or a neutral title introducing the said controversy) followed by the definition of terrorism under intl law, and what I wrote above in the body so it would look like something like this:

The Kurdistan Workers Party (Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan or PKK, Turkish: Kürdistan İşçi Partisi), also known as KADEK and Kongra-Gel, is a militant group, whose stated aim is to create an independent Kurdish state in a territory (sometimes referred to as Kurdistan) that consists of parts of south-eastern Turkey, north-eastern Iraq, north-ea...

...

Controversy (or whatever) (Being the First or Second Section after the Intro, that could be discussed)

The definition given by the United Nations Convention X, Y, Z (I still didn't have the time to check this out, but I am 100 percent sure of its existence) on terrorism is the killing of civilians and attacks on civilian infrastructure for the aim of inducing fear, but the sole act of attacking the armed personnel of a country (police, army) cannot be in itself considered terrorism. (With a source link to this Convention)

PKK has been recognized as terrorist by many countries because of its targeting of civilian targets, but PKK maintains that these were part of a much wider conflict with the TR State.. Since 2004, PKK has been refraining from attacking civilian targets and concentrating on attacks and low-intensity conflict with Turkish armed personnel to address these concerns, nevertheless there have been incidents where civilians were dragged into these conflicts (bombings etc.) since then, which makes the controversy surrounding the definition of the nature of PKK's activities (extremely) difficult to establish.. (again blah, blah, it would have to be proofread and copy-edited and citations added)

So do you see the spirit of what I am trying to say? There can be another section before/afterwards presenting the historical background of the conflict and/or the claims of both sides as to what they reproach to each other and etc and etc.. Again I am still in the brainstorming stages for this.. I also would like the views and opinions of many people about this, preferably no-one from the Eastern-Mediterranean just to see what they would make out of it.. It's not that I don't value your opinion Ozgur Gerilla, or that of Turks or Kurds, but I really think that we need some outside look on this matter to help us with achieving a greater degree of neutrality that can be expected from an encyclopedic entry.. Kind of like having the China-Japan wars having commented or analyzed by South Americans.. It seems that no-one that is not a Turk or Kurd has made extensive contributions to this article, sadly...

I will be very busy this week, but after I am going to make a suggestion for a complete change in the structure of the article to increase its neutrality and copy-editing of the said sections (of course 100 percent neutrality is a utopia :)).. I just think that we need a better article that is worthy of being called encyclopedic.. Baristarim 21:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I really like your idea of adding the 'Controversy' section to the article and I think it should be at the top because there is a lot of arguing going on which leads to vandalizing and a lot of reverts - I am sure many would be satisfied with this section. But I strongly disagree with your preference for Turks-Kurds not contributing to this particular section. Don't take it wrong but I also find it funny you making it personal because though I am ethnically mostly Kurdish my nationality is British. You may think I am bias because of my ethnicity but isn't that prejudice? May I also tell you that the most you could do is ask people to not contribute to the article but I don't think all will obey. There is actually some non-Turkish/Kurdish people that have made extensive contributions to this article. What I suggest we do about this matter (Controversy, Section) is open a poll (or whatever it's called in Wiki) and find a democratic solution. What do you think? Ozgur Gerilla 00:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

:))) I am sorry man, that's not what I meant... I didn't want to imply that u or any Kurd-Turk wouldn't be able to objective.. No disrespect, I also didn't mean to say that u would be biased because of your ethnicity.. U know, sometimes when you can only communicate by writing without being able to use tones etc, some things get lost, lost in translation :)... All I was trying to say was, if we could get some more contribution from others, we could end up with an article that would have less heat... On the other hand, I like the idea of a poll, but unfortunately I am kinda new to Wikipedia and I don't know how it would work. But I will have a look and get back. Cheers!! Baristarim 16:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Apparently all you have to do to create a poll is create a section (with two =) and create two subsections (with 3 =) called "support" and "oppose" so people could put their names there but then I found out that Wikipedia:Voting is evil. I think we should find a better way to sort this out. Ozgur Gerilla 11:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Terrorist Propaganda

The whole world considers pkk as a terrorist group and there is no need to any discussion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by E104421 (talk • contribs) .

See Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Terrorist, terrorism. —Khoikhoi 23:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

See "Growing some balls and calling a spade a spade". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.33.230 (talk) 21:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

i cant believe this. this page becomes a terror page. there is no other country in the world which gave 30000 death to pkk terror. killing is not an information, you cant kill people by writing but u can do terrorist propaganda by writing

Syntax and Lack of Clarity

Apparently this article needs a second look for copy-editing and syntax corrections... Hopefully I will do it this week when I have the time... Can the person(s) that have added the information on the Effects section contact me with their original sources?? They seem to be translated directly from Turkish (or some other language).. That's ok, but the article seriously lacks clarity and fluidity.. It took me ages to understand what this section was trying explain.. If the person(s) who put it up can give me their original text in Turkish (if it is in Turkish obviously, if it is German I can't help :)), I am willing to have a closer look to enhance the clarity of its translation (I am not saying that anyone is a bad translator, I just would like to have a look at it to see if a better translation is possible :))). Cheers! Baristarim 05:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Capture

It states that Ocalan was captured by a joint Turkish, CIA and Mossad operation. Given the unpopularity of the CIA and Mossad in the Muslim world that should either be supported by a citation or listed as 'allegably'. 145.253.108.22 16:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Introduction

I submit to the community some small reshaping of the introduction, which basically only concerns the order of presentation of fact (with the addition of some links to related important articles, and putting in context the insurgency (Tazmaniacs):

"The Kurdistan Workers Party (Kurdish: Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan or PKK, Turkish: Kürdistan İşçi Partisi), also known as KADEK and Kongra-Gel, is a militant group founded in the 1970s and led, until his capture in 1999, by Abdullah Öcalan. Its stated aim is to create a democratic and independent Kurdish state in a territory — which it claims as Kurdistan — that consists of parts of south-eastern Turkey, north-eastern Iraq, north-eastern Syria and north-western Iran. Its ideological foundation is revolutionary Marxism-Leninism and Kurdish nationalism; however, since the fall of the Soviet Union, it has somehow reduced its insistence on Marxism. It is an ethnic secessionist organization that uses force and the threat of force against both civilian and military targets for the purpose of achieving its political goal. The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization internationally by a number of states and organizations, including the USA and the EU, and Turkey blames it for the death of more than 30,000 people. The Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan (PEJAK) based in northern Iraq and operating in Iran is associated with the PKK.

Since its creation in the 1970s, amid violent clashes in the whole of Turkey which culminated in the 1980 military coup, the PKK has developed into a paramilitary organization which rendered much of southeastern Turkey a war zone in the late 1980s and 1990s. Its actions have taken place mainly in Turkey and against Turkish targets in other countries, although it has on occasions co-operated with other Kurdish nationalist paramilitary groups in neighbouring states, such as Iraq and Iran. The PKK argued that its violent actions were justified by the need to defend Kurds in the context of what it considered as the massive cultural suppression of Kurdish identity (including the 1983 Turkish Language Act Ban) and cultural rights carried out by the governments of the region. However, in its campaign, the PKK has been accused of carrying out atrocities against both Turkish and Kurdish civilians and its actions have been criticised by human rights groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Actions of the Turkish state in the past have also been criticised by these same groups. In effet, the Turkish state has led a serie of counter-insurgency operations against the PKK, accompanied by political measures, starting with an explicit denounciation of separatism in the 1982 Constitution, and including proclamation of the state of emergency in various PKK-controlled territories starting in 1983 (when the military relinquished political control to the civilians). This serie of administrative reforms against terrorism included in 1985 the creation of village guards, paramilitaries led by Turgut Özal. All in all, this low intensity conflict which has been lasting since more than thirty years has had a number of effects in the Turkish territory. Furthermore, this conflict is an important part concerning the negotiations between Turkey and the European Union (EU) about its eventual integration to the EU.

The degree of support for the PKK among Turkish Kurds is disputed: In some of the strongholds of Kurdish nationalism in the Tigris valley and mountainous regions on the Iranian border, PKK-linked parties have consistently polled close to or over 50% of votes cast in elections. However, PKK-linked parties have polled at most approximately one-third of the Kurdish vote (between 5% and 8% of the total Turkish vote), with the majority of Kurds voting for mainstream parties. In some of the more assimilated Kurdish areas, claimed by the PKK as being part of 'Kurdistan', support for PKK-linked parties is at 10% or less. There is some electoral support for PKK-linked parties among Kurdish migrants in cities in Western and Southern Turkey such as Adana, Mersin and İzmir.("Turkish General Election Results 2002". Retrieved November 3, 2002.)." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tazmaniacs (talk • contribs)

Ok, will take a look. The intro needs to be worked on a bit more. Btw, I left a small note on your talk page about the latest addition. Nothing big, just a couple of thoughts. Cheers! Baristarim 08:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Seems fine with me, there are two or three simple grammar syntax edits, but no biggie :) However, the only thing that might need to be mentioned in a sentence or two is the fact the capture of Ocalan and its effects whereby it brought a huge decrease in conflict in six-seven years following his capture, and that some activity has been picking up since the Iraq war. But I like the intro, no problems. Let's see what others think. Baristarim 09:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm sure we could really improve the introduction, and intros are important. We need to give a quick global picture of the thing. Creating a Turkish-Kurdish conflict article would also greatly help, wouldn't it? Tazmaniacs

Good work Tazmaniacs. This is a good starting point for a neutral lead to the article. And with so sensitive articles its best to reach some consensus. However, I believe it is quite long time ago that PKK abandoned the idea of a separate Kurdish state as official policy. Their rhetorics now so more focus on democratic rights, presentation in the Turkish parliament, recognition of cultural rights etc. Also the formulation PKK-linked parties might be slightly problematic, as any party linked to the PKK are shut down immediately. Pro-Kurdish might be better, albeit vague. Bertilvidet 16:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :)! Actually, you surely are more competent than me regarding these questions, why don't you take some time when you have some to improve this draft? We're not in a hurry (although if no one has time to improve it, and if we have approval, I would already make this first change for a start)... Tazmaniacs 18:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Although this draft could still be improved, I will edit it now since there has seem to be no opposition to it. Teshikur! Tazmaniacs 17:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

A new article?

I am ashamed of my earlier proposal concerning the creation of a new article. How about Turkish-Kurdish issues, Turkish-Kurdish relations or Kurdish issues in Turkey ? Tazmaniacs

There are quite a lot of issues at stake here, which deserve articles. I believe a high priority should be an article about the "thing" that happened 1884/1999. Some refer to it as a civil war, some as a fight against terrorism. Some wording including conflict would probably be the most neutral. But then, Kurdish issues in Turkey seems like something different. Do we think of cultural and language rights etc? Then it would maybe be more adequate with a more general minority rights in Turkey article. Bertilvidet 16:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think minority rights in Turkey is a good place to go, and it could make a sub-article of human rights in Turkey (a classic name for other such articles, see human rights in the United States, etc.). "Terrorism" is for me out of the question, and "civil war" is also a bit strong (and would involve the whole country, including Ankara and Istanbul). Beside, if you see the discussion concerning the so-called "Dirty War" in Argentina, you will see that calling this a "war" poses a number of juridical problems (first of all, the impossibility to judge responsibles of human rights violations except the highest hierarchy, as acts committed during a war under military hierarchy are covered by the laws of war). "Conflict" is certainly better, but I'm against Turkish-Kurdish conflict as it tends to support the controversial thesis of a "civilization clash" (at least, of an "ethnic clash"). I don't claim there is no ethnic issues (that would be ridiculous), but I dislike putting up two cultural groups one against the others in such a massive way. I fear such an article would accredit both the PKK's independentist discourse and the Turkish nationalist discourse, ignoring moderates on both side (or simply people who don't care, although they're might not be many - a few apolitic exilees who try to forget all of this?). That is why I proposed "issue", it sounds to me more NPOV. The problem with "minority rights" is that it does not explicitly refers to the conflict, which "issues" does in a kind of diplomatic-like language. Of course, PKK and the Turkish state is also possible, but this would leave out other Kurdish groups. Kurdish conflict in the South-East of Turkey would be acceptable, I think, but would refers only to military operations over there. Another issue would be simply Human rights in Turkey, although it would not directly refer to the conflict (I do think we need a specific article for the conflict). Another, last solution I can think of would be to adress directly Kurdish issues in an international manner, allowing for subsections according to each state (Turkey, Iran, Irak), which might be, after all, the best issue (although I already hear the cries of nationalists and the pseudo-accusations of support to the Kurds, it would allow for a better understanding of Kurdish matters). What do you folks believe? Tazmaniacs 18:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Alleged relation with PEJAK

See Wikipedia:Verifiability guidelines. Furthermore, even if you do find some reliable sources supporting this assertion, I doubt it should be included in the introduction as the latter doesn't treat of international relations. Inserting it in the body of the entry would be more logical.

"The Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan (PEJAK) based in northern Iraq and operating in Iran is associated with the PKK."

Thanks, Tazmaniacs 17:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

"PKK-linked parties"

This phrase is clearly POV and should be reworded in the introduction. Whether various incarnations of Kurdish parties such as DEHAP and HADEP are "PKK-linked" is very much contested. They themselves claim to have no link with the PKK, the Turkish government and prosecutors have claimed that they do, and international human rights associations and independent researchers generally believe that, while certain individuals within these parties may be sympathetic to the PKK, there has been little or no official contact between these parties' leaderships and that of the PKK (cf. MacDowall, "Modern History of Kurds"; Olson (ed.), "The Kurdish Nationalist Movement in the 1990s"; Barkey, "Turkey's Kurdish Question").--Jsorens 18:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The fact is the parties have policies which Kurds vote for; some of their voters might also support PKK, but why should this reflect on the party? I do not think they should be in this section at all. Is everything connected with Kurds in Turkey to be seen as PKK-linked? 81.174.159.170 19:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

"Roj NV & Denmark"

The point being made here is that Denmark is accused of supporting the PKK. I don't see why to bring Roj NV into it. There was an investigation into Roj NV made by Belgian authorities - prompted by Turkey's propaganda - which ultimately did not find sufficient evidence of a link with PKK to rule there was one. Turkey had not been able to substantiate its allegations. Furthermore stating "in violation of Turkish domestic law" makes it sound like that means something! A Danish-established satellite company only needs to comply with Danish law, EU law and international law. Turkish domestic law doesn't come into it, the same way it doesn't come into BBC broadcasts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by --Ifonlyalabama 03:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)81.174.159.170 (talk) 02:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

At least be man enough to sign your comment, especially when you keep saying Turkish propaganda. Many European countries banned Roj TV. Korrybean 13:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I have now signed the comment, which had been left unsigned in error. No country has ever banned Roj TV. --Ifonlyalabama 03:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

By banning, i meant closed. Maybe there was a little misunderstanding there. But Germany, France and Britain closed Roj TV. Korrybean 17:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Kurdist Support of the Pkk

"The degree of support for the PKK among Turkish Kurds is disputed: In some of the strongholds of Kurdish nationalism in the Tigris valley and mountainous regions on the Iranian border, pro-Kurdish parties have consistently polled close to or over 50% of votes cast in elections. However, Kurdish parties have polled at most approximately one-third of the Kurdish vote (between 5% and 8% of the total Turkish vote), with the majority of Kurds voting for mainstream parties. In some of the more assimilated Kurdish areas, claimed by the PKK as being part of 'Kurdistan', support for Kurdish parties is at 10% or less. There is some electoral support for these parties among Kurdish migrants in cities in Western and Southern Turkey such as Adana, Mersin and İzmir."

This part has nothing to do with PKK or Kurdish support for PKK. This is merely for support of democratic Kurdish political parties. This section is not about PKK at all, therefore should be deleted Korrybean 13:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Undue weight and terrorism

I recently reverted an edit of new user Semiramiscan. He has left two posts about the issue on my talkpage (for those who care).

Personally I don't see much of a difference either way, because who considers the PKK terrorists is already mentioned in the second paragraph (sayfanın ikinci paragrafını okuyunuz - şimdi iyi midir?). The way I understand it, Semiramiscan wants to move it to the first paragraph straight after the "militant" definition. Does anyone have a problem with that? An obvious benefit I can think of is that it may reduce the volume of anon vandalism to the article.--Domitius 20:44, 9 March 2007

I had a look at the WP:WTA yet I also have read the artic about us being entitled to ignore the rules of wikipedia. Thus I personally consider mentioning the PKK is a terrorist organization. I have plenty of reasons for this statement; 1-) PKK militants have killed more than 200,000 people (including civils and military). Battling with the military can be considered as a terorrist action. 2-) The leader of the PKK is sentenced for life for forming a teroor organizaiton. 3-)The PKK is listed as a terrorist organisation internationally by a number of states and organisations, including the USA and the EU. 4-)The family of victims of these killing would be highly offended 5-)The aim of the pkk is creation of a new country on the lands of Turkey which is a Terrorist action --Semiramiscan 20:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

These are your opinions, and thus not compatible with Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. Also please be careful to read the text, so that you do not end up entering repetitions of something that already is stated. And also be aware of WP:3RR. Bertilvidet 09:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

1) Not even Turkey claims that PKK militants have killed more than 200,000 people! 2) The leader of the PKK is sentenced for life by Turkish domestic courts in a trial that was ruled incompatible with international human rights law and unfair by the European Court of Human Rights, which also held he should receive another trial. 5) The PKK used to have separatist aims however these are no longer its stated aims. --User: ifonlyalabama

If a person kills someone, it is called murder, if a lot of people kills a lot of people it's either called terrorism or genocide. Since PKK is not a government it cannot be genocide. Thus it deifintely is terrorism. Besides Al Queda militans doesn't refer Al Queada as a terror organization hence it is not compatitable with WP:NPOV. --Semiramiscan 17:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed move

I would like to propose that this article be moved to "PKK".. The most common name for it in the English language is via its acroynm, and like ETA, it should be there since it is originally a non-English name. As far as IRA is concerned, IRA is actually a disambiguation page, and the article is at Irish Republican Army, but that is a English language acronym to begin with. Baristarim 01:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

What I am saying is, "ETA" is not at "Basque Homeland and Freedom", basically... Baristarim 01:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Good idea that would get over the possessive problem too. - Francis Tyers · 09:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

ETA should be a redirect to Basque Homeland and Freedom just like PKK should redirect to Kurdistan Workers Party. El_C 13:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I've protected the page from further pages moves (but not editing) until there's a firm consensus here on where you all want the page to reside. Drop by WP:RFPP when your ready for the page to be unlocked and explain (in detail) the situation. -- Nick ^t 21:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

In the interest of NPOV, I removed some of the overwhelmingly repetitious references to terrrorism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.10.6.77 (talk) 06:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing facts r0x. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.202.171.111 (talk) 13:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"Table"

I oppose this table based on Turkish government sources. The idea that you can "summarise" the activities with a table and "ticks" is incorrect. - Francis Tyers · 09:26, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It does not claim to summarise everything. Are you suggesting that PKK has not done them? It gives information, should stay. And what is wrong with Turkish government sources, they are valid sources, the people who died, have died, and they are claimed by PKK. I do not understand your reverts here and in the list of casualties. You are removing useful and well referenced things. deniz^T_C 10:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

external links

Wow, I was just looking at the presentation of various terrorist organisations and other forbidden groups (especially nazi-groups), and this is the first article where I have found direct links to the webpages promoting those terrorist ideas or AT LEAST the ideas that lead to their terrorist attacks. We should not promote Nazi, radical fundamentalist /islamic terrorists and / or seperatist/terrorist movements (I do not mean combinations of these of course, I mean each by itself), please do not forget that thousands of lives (at least) were lost because of such... and the death of a single life already is a tragedy. So I propose to delete those external links leading to official PKK sites or PKK-linked organisations. A healthy view of the problems in the mainly kurdish regions is already presented in various parts of wikipedia, we can and will do that ourselve, not let others do it. Instead, we should continue promoting links to human right organisations.

Imagine all terrorist organisations want to promote their websites on wikipedia.. my god! --SilverWiki 22:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

protection

So Khoikhoi why do you insist on adding OR? What Rouleau's article states is given in the previous sentence like I mentioned gazillion times. Also you keep removing relevant referenced material. The table is useful, can stay, it is not 'ugly' either. I don't know whether the sentence "and Greece has allowed PKK camps to function on its soil" can not be substantiated. deniz^T_C 05:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• The last sentences of first para. (nowiki'ed)

After Khoikhoi's edits (current version), note the reference of "citing the same article" sentence, same with the ref of the sentence before. Also note the fact tag at the end:

[[Eric Rouleau]] in the November/December [[2000]] edition of '[[Foreign Affairs]]' states: "According to the Turkish Ministry of Justice, in addition to the 35,000 people killed in military campaigns, 17,500 were assassinated between 1984, when the conflict began, and 1998. An additional 1,000 people were reportedly assassinated in the first nine months of 1999. According to the Turkish press, the authors of these crimes, none of whom have been arrested, belong to groups of mercenaries working either directly or indirectly for the security agencies".<ref name=rouleau>{{cite journal |last=Rouleau |first=Eric |year=2000 |month=November/December |title=Turkey's Dream of Democracy |journal=[[Foreign Affairs]] |volume=79 |issue=6 |url= http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20001101faessay939/eric-rouleau/turkey-s-dream-of-democracy.html}}</ref><ref name=housegov>{{cite web|url=http://wwwc.house.gov/international_relations/107/73068.pdf |title=U.S. Policy In The Mediterranean: Managing The Greece, Turkey, Cyprus Triangle |publisher=The House of Representatives |lastaccessmonthday=September 1 |lastaccessyear=2006}}</ref> Citing the same article, the PKK claims that [[Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey|more than 18,500 civilians]] have been killed by Turkish military and paramilitary organisations.<ref>{{cite journal |last=Rouleau |first=Eric |year=2000 |month=November/December |title=Turkey's Dream of Democracy |journal=[[Foreign Affairs]] |volume=79 |issue=6 |url=http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20001101faessay939/eric-rouleau/turkey-s-dream-of-democracy.html}}</ref> In recent years the PKK has shifted its policy, moving away from Marxism and softening its nationalist aims to focus more on equal language and democratic rights, as well as a recognition of Kurds in the Turkish constitution, within Turkey's existing borders.{{Fact|date=February 2007}}

Before Khoikhoi's edits:

[[Eric Rouleau]] in the November/December [[2000]] edition of '[[Foreign Affairs]]' states: "According to the Turkish Ministry of Justice, in addition to the 35,000 people killed in military campaigns, 17,500 were assassinated between 1984, when the conflict began, and 1998. An additional 1,000 people were reportedly assassinated in the first nine months of 1999. According to the Turkish press, the authors of these crimes, none of whom have been arrested, belong to groups of mercenaries working either directly or indirectly for the security agencies".<ref name=rouleau>{{cite journal |last=Rouleau |first=Eric |year=2000 |month=November/December |title=Turkey's Dream of Democracy |journal=[[Foreign Affairs]] |volume=79 |issue=6 |url= http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20001101faessay939/eric-rouleau/turkey-s-dream-of-democracy.html}}</ref><ref name=housegov>{{cite web|url=http://wwwc.house.gov/international_relations/107/73068.pdf |title=U.S. Policy In The Mediterranean: Managing The Greece, Turkey, Cyprus Triangle |publisher=The House of Representatives |lastaccessmonthday=September 1 |lastaccessyear=2006}}</ref> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, in an effort to win increased support from the Kurdish peasantry, the PKK altered its leftist secular ideology to better accommodate and accept Islamic beliefs. The group also abandoned its previous strategy of attacking Kurdish civilians, focusing instead on government and tourist targets.<ref name=miptpkkmain>{{cite web|url=http://www.tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=63|author=MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base|title=Group Profile: Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK)|accessdate=2007-04-17}}</ref>

Khoikhoi keeps removing one more referenced material. Also the table that was removed earlier by Francis is removed this time by Khoikhoi. deniz^T_C 05:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why the same ref cannot be used to cite two different facts. - Francis Tyers · 07:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Please do not answer generally, just read the text above. Bear with it if it is ugly. deniz^T_C 09:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

khoikhoi removes the table and 3 minutes later.. da da! page protected.wikipedia smells something rotten.--Ceberrut 10:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Why did the table and the bit about ASALA get deleted? How did this page get protected by the way? I don't see a request for page protection. Baristarim 14:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC) As for the Greece bit - I can easily find a source for it.. No worries. Baristarim 14:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

True, why did it get reverted to a version with a whole unsourced sentence at the end? Baristarim 14:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, it wasn't 18,500, was 17,500. Here's what the article says:

Nor has it, judging from the human rights reports published annually by the U.S. State Department and by various nongovernmental organizations (NGOS). Over the years, individuals who advocate conciliation, including parliamentarians of Kurdish origin, have been imprisoned by the hundreds. Parties formed by moderate Kurds have been outlawed one after another. Torture has become widespread, and disappearances and assassinations of lawyers, journalists, politicians, and business executives suspected of sympathizing with the rebels have multiplied. According to the Turkish Ministry of Justice, in addition to the 35,000 people killed in military campaigns, 17,500 were assassinated between 1984, when the conflict began, and 1998. An additional 1,000 people were reportedly assassinated in the first nine months of 1999. According to the Turkish press, the authors of these crimes, none of whom have been arrested, belong to groups of mercenaries working either directly or indirectly for the security agencies.

Khoikhoi 01:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Could it be that those 17500 are additional casualties caused by PKK (not during military campaigns, so civilians)? Turkish press refers to 1000 at most. deniz^T_C 02:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be original research to make such an assumption, it's our job to say what the third-party, reliable sources say. Khoikhoi 04:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

See it's your OR having 18500 (or 17500) assassinated by those 'mercenaries' there. That's what I've been saying all this time. You are 'misusing' a source. We have the actual statement by Rouleau (which we in fact should not use, as it is not free, not available to everyone, but if we shall use it, we shall not misuse it). The wiki readers can decide what to conclude once they see the statement. With your edit, we are sabotaging this. Also, you removed another referenced material and a table. deniz^T_C 13:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

We can give a quote then. And the table is totally POV. Khoikhoi 01:34, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The quote is there Khoikhoi. The quote is what you are 'mis-re-using'. I guess you were edit warring without knowing well what you were editing. I don't know about you, but the table is not POV. This article stayed too long in your version. deniz^T_C 02:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The table is indeed POV, and not only do the footnotes not work, but it does not allow the reader to form an opinion based on facts but rather enforces a particular POV. Khoikhoi 02:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Lets do things one by one. We can discuss table and the removal of the two referenced materials later, unless you agree with what I said above, do you? Are you going to reinsert the "citing from the same article" sentence, if not, are you going to remove it if you notice somene inserting that sentence? deniz^T_C 09:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Consensus?

So guys is there any consensus yet? Do you suggest some edits to the protected version or can I unprotect the article? Alex Bakharev 23:24, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Apparently there is a consensus except the table. You can unprotect the article, or revert to earlier version , but remove the table, for now. Deniz^T_C 05:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

2007 Turkish general election and PKK

Main article: Turkish general election, 2007

A death threat was mailed by PKK to CHP, MHP, DYP ve AKP to withdraw their Van, and Hakkari.

“ With the exception of DTP all candidates in Van and Hakkari from CHP, MHP, DYP ve AKP must withdraw themselves and offer their support to Kurdish people. Our people must demonstrate their kurdishness in the elections. If any different approach develops, our approach will also be different. [...] Whoever continues the activities we mentioned here will be punished. Who ever damages our movement or our party [DTP] will not be forgiven in any way. They should know that they are facing death.

Turkish: DTP dışında, Van ve Hakkari’de CHP, MHP, DYP ve AKP adayları kendilerini fesih edip Kürt halkına desteklerini sunmaları gerekmektedir. Tüm halkımız Kürtlüğünü sandıklarda muhakkak göstermelidir. Aksi yaklaşımlar gelişecek olursa yaklaşımlarımız farklı olacaktır. [...] Bu uyarımızdan sonra bildiride belirttiğimiz faaliyetler içinde olanlar cezalandırılacaktır. Hareketimize ve partimize zarar veren şahsiyetler hiçbir şekilde affedilmeyecektir. Ölümle karşı karşıya olduğunu bilmelidirler. ”

Above material should be added to the article. -- Cat ^chi? 14:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Dang you are fast, i saw this on the news today, and was about to propose this. The translation is correct for anyone doubting CoolCat. Except he used "anyway" instead of "any way" in some place, which is now corrected.Korrybean 17:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I am more or less like Lain of the Wired... -- Cat ^chi? 20:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

"Ölümle karşı karşıya olduğunu bilmelidirler." This claus and the previous ones that are connected with this contains menacing contents. Showing such things is not acceptible for an organisation as Wikipedia.

Read 2001 anthrax attacks, menacing messages do exist on wikipedia --193.140.197.140 13:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Confusion in the blockquote

An anon user has asked the following,

"In the region under State of Emergency [the Kurdish provinces], the authority to apply the death sentence has been brought down to the level of low-ranking officers and, even more seriously, to repentant prisoners, who were the terrorists of yesterday and are the potential criminals of tomorrow ... When persons have been handed over from one state service to another, after a case has been has been adjourned in the courts, and are found dead under a bridge, it is obvious that one cannot speak of murders by unknown perpetrators."

"Is it from Radikal or Le Monde? I don't understand?" He seems to be right since in the prose, it is said to be quoted by Radikal whereas in the reference it is said to be quoted by Le Monde.--Ugur Olgun 18:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The English (or French) version of an excerpt of the text is there. Unfortunately the earliest issue on the online archive of Radikal newspaper is the May 1, 1998 issue. Some other archiving sites might have the original news (in Turkish) (byegm for instance). Text was written by Kendal Nezan, President of the Institut kurde in Paris, and it appeared on Le Monde. Deniz^T_C 19:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pkk logo.gif

Image:Pkk logo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 08:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup on Aisle 4!!

I added "Use of Children/Study of University of Ankara" section from a recent study. The explanation is mine, it is not plagarism or original research. What the problem there is i have one source that i referenced to about 5 times, but I really suck at referencing, so it seems like 5 different sources but they are the same. Sources are 32-37, can anyone fix it and make that ONE source and make it look cleaner perhaps? Korrybean 19:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Last reverts

All the information removed is well-sourced. Since wikipedia is about verifiability, there's no reason to remove those. And the reason for that revert definately can't be "Good edits". Us users are not a higher autority to decide what's good or bad, neither can we rewrite the articles depending on how we like them or not.

Please don't mistake me for nationalist. I'm trying to be as NPOV as possible. If you look at my previous edits, you'll see that.

Regards, Kerem Özcan 15:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed Wikipedia is but POV is a big factor. You keep on adding Civilians, all about arms and other things which is point of view and the civilian part is unsourced and much more please elbarote or do not add at all. 75.51.173.54 07:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Here is a source about civilians just from yesterdays newspaper. The rest of the stuff is all sourced. I am not the one who added them to the article. But what's POV is deleting the sourced info. Plus I did not understand why you deleted the "militant seperatist" part. That's the standart wording for such organizations according to wikipedia policies. Regards, Kerem Özcan 08:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The "children" section is entirely unacceptable partly because it is based on just one partisan source. Everything is referenced to a non-English article published in a nationalist Turkish newspaper, Hürriyet, which operate under the motto "Turkey belongs to Turks". Another issue is that the section is biased and filled with original research, regarding among other things what is "interesting statistics" about a former Marxist organization. -- Karl Meier 10:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, reading through is article again, it seems obvious to me that it is beyond repair with various nationalists having inserted huge amounts of cherry picked information and original research. There is no point for me being or working here anymore, as it is obvious that it will be a waste of my time. I will be back in a year or two, and I hope things will have changed for then better then. -- Karl Meier 10:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I majorly agree with your last edits and I think such positive contribution is always appriciated. I also agree with the removal of children section since a research by a Turkish university is not exactly the most NPOV institute to do it. Though PKK uses children as it can easily be sourced after seconds worth of google search, like in this example. I'll properly add it to the article in a NPOV way when I have time. And It's your decision if you don't want to edit any further here but it would surely be a loss for the article. The wording especially needs to be worked on. Regards, Kerem Özcan 11:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Use of Children/Study of University of Ankara section

Please do not removed sourced material. Thank you. -- Cat ^chi? 16:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I have edited some grammar and spelling, and slightly changed several paragraphs to ensure it is clear that they describe the findings of a report, and not necessarily fact.Romtobbi 07:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello there, this section seems a bit ropey to me. Unfortunately, I can't read Turkish so I can't qualify it with the source, but what's being said in the body of this piece doesn't back up its emotive first sentence. ie, an education level less than high school doesn't mean the miltants are mainly children--just poorly educated; and anyway, lots of adults work abroad or join organisations so as to add extra income to their families. It just doesn't seem very NPOV to me. What do other people think about this? Richardbeavis 15:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Was this entry written by the Turkish military?

"The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization internationally by a number of states and organizations, including the USA, NATO and the EU.[5] More than 37,000 people have been killed in the Turkish-PKK conflict since 1984,[6] 4,568 being military personnel.[7]"

Reads like it was the PKK that killed all those civilians! This is the worst wikiweaselism I have seen yet. Casualties of the Turkish-Kurdish conflict and Turkish-Kurdish conflict are no better. Every entry, the same formula: "The PKK are terrorists. X thousands have died" as though it were the PKK and not the Turkish state that were responsible! It is obvious to anyone even remotely aware of the history of the conflict - i.e. to anyone who was old enough to read newspapers in the 1980s - that the dominant editors for this topic have an agenda. Oh, and the U.S. is planning to use Special Ops against the PKK leadership in Iraq, to placate Turkey's generals - see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/29/AR2007072900859.html221.157.74.229 13:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, the Turkish Military actually has a special Wiki-unit just to write wiki articles... This is very important stuff you know? Very secret and powerful unit... The Turkish generals are meeting every day to discuss the articles on Wikipedia. Actually this may be more important than killing those TERRORISTS in those mountains... Yeah. --Gokhan 06:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I consider this to be a pointless thread. Talk pages should be used only to improve articles. -- Cat ^chi? 06:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

PKK killed 12 villagers including a 9 years old child 2 days ago. There is no point in not to mention those massacres.--hnnvansier 12:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)#

Can the above person please cite his references?

Well, facts can be difficult to accept for some. I love how PKK has tried to pretend since the early 1990s that it is not a communist organization. In fact, On November 14, 1999, Öcalan arrived in Rome, Italy accompanied by Ramon Mantovani, a member of the Communist Refoundation Party, from Moscow. Sure they're not commies. Yeah right.Ndriley97 (talk) 23:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikicrockery

Funny how the pipsqueak PKK is flat out labeled as an "armed terrorist group" while Hezbollah, which has a long history of terrorist activities is referred to as a "political and paramilitary organization;" but then again, Blackwater USA hasn't been accused of distributing weapons to Hezbollah. This kind of widespread bias in Wikipedia is becoming so blatant that it's almost humorous. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 07:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:SOAPBOX Please be constructive. Hezbollah is the trainer of PKK and ASALA, and they might be bigger, at least they have a bigger effect on countries other than Turkey, but what they are called or what they are not called is not so relevant here. Please at least read the article before you add comments. If you wish to do so, you can remove this whole section Deniz^T_C 03:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

(Removed flat-out racism) --193.140.197.140 13:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

which one is terrorist? KURDs or turks?

kurdish people have a long history of civilization and culture more than 5000 years(far more than yours turks) and they have had their own land. they have since then not migrate or invade their neighbours and have lived there peacefully (just opposite to you turks who has been always invaders). now i have a question: where were you turks have been lived befor 800 years ago?????? if you cannt answer, then i have got the answer. yes you were brutal invaders (ancient terrorists)started your migration from MONGOLIA to our lands(our beautiful kurdistan) and destroyed all the things on your way until you reached our lands. you killed as many people as you could and occupied our lands.we kurds embraced you turks as new guests or neighbours. now you think its your land and kurds have to leave there for you turks??!!!!!we will stay there in our beautiful kurdistan and fight against all who want to destroy it.if you are not happy with that you would better to GO BACK TO YOUR LAND MONGOLIA. and another question: why kurdish people support PKK? because they find totalitarian turk state fascist racist unflexible and that it would not accept to verify nationalities other than turkish nationality and it would never respect them as a different nation. there is no chance for kurdish nation to obtain their natural rights other than support pkk in turkey at the moment. but still i think another party can be formed that unlike PKK is not military and maybe along with pkk follows kurds rights in turkey —Preceding AWYER comment added by 60.229.34.25 (talk) 12:16, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Before taking the effort to write all that useless, inaccurate information above, why dont you cite your reference so that we dont trust that source anymore? or do you not have any sources? Well, PKK is a terrorist organization and in the war against terrorism, Turkey has the full authority to hunt down for every single member of the terrorist group. And it did so, it will do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.74.79.25 (talk) 02:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Its neither Kurds nor Turks that cause any of these casualties. Besides, if your argument were true, none of the modern nations would exist. Britons (anglo-saxon) came to UK around 600, America was found at 1776, Germans came to Europe during roman times. Kurdish people (those who support pkk, not all of them of course) should vote for parties that support their voices, which they have. DTP is and should be the only way to voice the opinion, not by killing women and children. Korrybean 20:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I find it kind of silly for one to say "my nation has this many years of culture in this land" etc, because considering we've all evolved and originated from Africa according to most scientists, we have all had a culture for around 15,000 years or more. And the Turks have had their distinct culture and distinct Turkic language for thousands of years before they arrived in Anatolia. In fact, their coming was welcomed by the ethnic Kurds because of the mistreatment they had received under Byzantine rule. Kurds were free to continue their tribal lifestyle and usually have not been governed since the lands many of them lived in are rural areas which wasn't controlled until the last few decades when Kurdish tribal lifestyle has begun to decline. The PKK is simply a terrorist organization designed to recruit extremist Kurds who want to rebel. The DTP is the correct way to voice opinions of all types of Kurds, if the PKK feels that the DTP is insufficient, they should create their own Turkish party and stop using violence against civilians. — ^talk § _Arsenic99_ 23:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Incomplete reversion of vandalism; anyone watching this page?

Several times in recent weeks large chunks of referenced text (1000s of bytes) were deleted without comment by anons, and no one else reverted the vandalism because reverters (recent-changes patrolers, not watchers of this article) only reverted subsequent vandalizing edits. I reverted the ones that were missed. (I am not especially interested in this article; it just happens to be on my watchlist because I made some small edit, and I have my preferences set to automatically add any page I edit to my watchlist.) This pattern of incomplete reversion of vandalism suggests to me that very few proper WP editors are watching this page (rabidly partisan flamers and edit-warriors not included). I suggest that if any proper editors care about the page, they should watch it and do the vandalism patrol. I may take it off my watchlist soon. — ¾-10 14:50, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Which part are you talking about (children's study?)? I removed the duplicated attack comment above. Deniz^T_C 19:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Funny you should mention that as I was asking about the childrens study just up there. At the risk of being missed, I'll say it again down here... that section seems a bit ropey to me. Unfortunately, I can't read Turkish so I can't qualify it with the source, but what's being said in the body of this piece doesn't back up its emotive first sentence. ie, an education level less than high school doesn't mean the miltants are mainly children--just poorly educated; and anyway, lots of adults work abroad or join organisations so as to add extra income to their families. It just doesn't seem very NPOV to me. What do other people think about this? I can't find anything like this in English and I've been trawling google for quite literally hours Richardbeavis 22:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It mentions about the child use of PKK here. Kerem Özcan 06:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The title is "Hepsi kandırılmış çocuklar" which means "they are all deceived children", but the content does not explicitly mention their age. As far as I know, there was a book by a lady about the use of children by PKK, that can be used instead, I can't recall the name. Until then it might be better to remove/change the title of this subsection (though we should keep the content). Deniz^T_C 01:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the link, Kerem. I should clarify: I have no doubt that children are employed in this way, but to say as it does that the 'PKK uses mainly children' wasn't borne out by that link. And if the content of the Hepsi link (thank you, Deniz) doesn't refer to ages then I'm not that confident the first sentence should persist in the article. I would suggest changing it to say that "The PKK is known to use children within its militant force."

In fact, I'd go further and suggest that the whole section needs a bit of re-wording, although I agree the content should be kept. Richardbeavis 15:03, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Unfortunately neither do I have the time to do it, nor the english skills of a native. Regards, Kerem Özcan 21:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Then I'll consider that an invitation to have a go myself. (I've got plenty of time on my hands!) Just wanted to secure another opinion before I went and did it. Cheers Kerem Richardbeavis 09:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Aargh--I should never have offered! Okay, I in no way think this is perfect, but I'd like to solicit responses/amendments to this before I whack it in (feel free to hate it--well, at least constructively anyhoo):

The PKK is known to use children within its militant force and a recent study by the University of Ankara’s Health Sciences Institute has examined the motivations of some children captured from the organization. Of those surveyed, 86% had joined the PKK to bolster their families incomes following offers that the organization would provide for their families in return. However, all of the children reported that these offers were not fulfilled.[59] 80% of those surveyed also reported that they had actively stopped other family members—usually younger brothers—from joining the organization too.[59] The study also reported that 60% of those surveyed had an education level below high school level.[59]

When asked why they stayed in the PKK rather than turning themselves in to the authorities, only 5% said that it was from fear of punishment by the Turkish Republic.[59] Instead two thirds stated that they were afraid of being caught by the PKK as reprisals are not just limited to physical harm towards the militant; their families would be at risk as well.[59] The study also examined attitudes toward gender equality within the organization. 88% of the subjects reported that, despite its Marxist ideology and claims that equality is a key objective, there was no equality within the organization.[59] Richardbeavis 17:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it is good. I made some more changes, like removing "only" (rearranged two sentences as well). Also PKK used children should go somewhere else with a different source, this way it seems like that study is the only one supporting it. Also Turkish speakers might want to take a look at this, which indicates that from some yet unnamed countries, there were money transfers (150 Euro) to relatives of PKK militants after they took part in attacks. The inspected total is 25-30 thousand Euros to 69 people in 2005-2006. Deniz^T_C 23:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

PKK

Should we move this article to PKK? I think that is by far the most common usage, and there should be no disambiguity. Do we have a rule against using abbreviations as article titles? Deniz^T_C 19:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

We often avoid abbreviations whenever possible. -- Cat ^chi? 19:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Apoism

Can anyone describe the term: Apoism? thessaysno | talk 18:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd not noticed that before, thank you! Well I know I can't. I suggest that gets removed, unless someone really can explain it. Although I also notice that this page is now locked for edits... Richardbeavis 21:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

PKK people

I think we should have a section on people associated with PKK. Abdullah Öcalan (former head), Murat Karayılan (current head), Şemdin Sakık (former number two) come to mind. I recently found about this Bahoz Erdal, if he is notable we can list him as well. Any thoughts? Deniz^T_C 17:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think it's a good idea--it's useful to know more about the indivduals driving these organizations. Richardbeavis 12:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The flag

I know we all take the flag that we see in the infobox for granted, but are there any sources for it? I can see no such flag anywhere else on the Internet. The "official" web site of the PKK [www.hpg-online.net] doesn't use it anywhere. I propose that we change the flag to the one(s) used in that web-site which is known as the "official" website of the organization. Baristarim 18:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

PKK

PKK is NOT a terrorist organisation, they only want an inependent nation, with freedom for gods sake, go on youtube and find more sad videos of how kurds reguardly gets killed by their enemies such as dumbass turkey. Dont accuse Kurdistan you selfish pathetic losers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ThePoliticalHero (talk • contribs) 17:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Majority of Kurds in Iraq and Turkey are moderate muslims. PKK -which is a Marxist terrorist organization- does not represent them. Kurds in Iraq want their independent state, and Kurds in Turkey want their democratic rights and in democracy you have other ways than terror to get this like the Kurdish democratic party and DTP --88.244.62.15 22:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a soapbox, do not push your political agenda here. And this article does nto say "PKK SUCKS OMG OMG THEY BE TERRORISTS" it says who has acknowledged the group AS a terrorist organization. Facts > Opinions buddy. Korrybean (talk) 06:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

But it is a terrorist organization to 90% of the world except to some Kurds, a minority of Kurds that are more nationalistic than normal Kurds who live freely in countries like Turkey without problems. And just like the Al-Qaeda page lists the organization as a terrorist organization, wikipedia allows you to list PKK as a terrorist organization as well, since a majority of the world has seen the evidence of their criminal acts.98.203.72.229 (talk) 18:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

What PKK is, is mostly listed on the main article. It is said that it is designated as a terrorist organization, and it is. Any suggestions for improvements on the article? Also PKK does not want independent nation anymore, and they are not Marxist anymore. I don't know if they are adhering to any philosophy now, or if they ever did. They are just the asymmetric part in the asymmetric war there, who get rich with every attack. They are ruled by Syrians, this might have affected their decision to attack the GAP Project that aims to modernize the region, and improve the conditions there, though this is no reason to kill the teachers and doctors. Kurdish people in Turkey have their nation, it is the dumbass turkey. Politically as well. Besides ~20 MPs of DTP (-Akin Birdal), we have like 50 MP's in AKP of Kurdish stock, and a good number should be there among CHP MPs, there might be some Kurdish MPs in MHP as well. The region is still poor, hope it will get better. Possibly, there are still road blocks, searches made by the military, hope this will end soon, if it hadn't ended. There are villagers who could not return to their villages, yet. Hope they will be able to return, if they wish to do so, instead of staying in cities. PKK only delays these. I'm happy that Turkish people (citizens of Turkey) were able to distinguish Kurds from terrorist (despite being affected the most), otherwise we could have a civil war in Turkey on an enormous scale. I just hope other nations will be able to do this distinguishing as well. Anyway, removing the designation as a terrorist org is not a good suggestion for improvement. Any other suggestions? 04:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

tactics of PKK

I found out that Tactics of Kurdistan Workers Party is redirected here (don't know if it was really merged) following an AFD that had no consensus. Any reasons for this? This article is quite large, and the last thing we need is merging subarticles. Deniz^T_C 04:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Size of PKK

Can anyone find out the ize off the PKK fighting force, it puts the conflict into better propective when you know the capabilities of the combatants, i think it should be mentioned in the PKK-Turkey conflict info box

Last changes

Hello; I reverted your edits in Kurdistan workers party. I did so, because adding unsourced info in such controversial articles should be avoided. Erasing the sourced info is another no-no. Plus I noticed that your version described "Kurdistan workers party" as an "armed resistance", which is at least as POV as Terrorist (One's terorist is other one's freedom fighter). So it didn't qualify for WP:WTA As long as you take these points into considiration, your edits are always welcome, and your contribution is appriciated. Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 12:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello again;

I am not willing by any-means to get in an edit war, and I am not going to do that. I just want to mention that I am by no means a nationalist or anything near that. I condemn the oppression of Kurdish population and culture in Turkey, and also recognize the right of the self determination of Kurdish people (If that means a seperate Kurdistan, so be it). However you should know that Öcalan's PKK, or Kurdistan Workers Party, is by no means a mythical-freedomfighting organization like Che's guerillas. They have been involved in drug and human trafficing, extorsion, attacks against civilians and Kurdish bussinessmen who don't support them, you name it... Of course this doesn't whitewash the oppression by the Turkish government or the army, but also no need to praise PKK.

Also as you can see from the last elections, the Kurdish party that is allegedly connected with PKK, didn't get the support it expected. Many Kurds voted in favor of AKP, for a diplomatic solution rather than guerilla fighting.

I'll revert your version, which btw apart from typos, has many WP:OR problems, once more. As I said before, I'll by no means get into an edit war, but I think you should think about it in the light of what I've written.

Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 11:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

If you do not want an edit war (as you say) then try to find a compromise, and do not simply remove changes with which you disagree, I am not a supporter of the PKK, but I find the formulations you keep on reverting to heavily biased.--Vindheim (talk) 11:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not remove the changes I disagree. I remove the unsourced ones. For example, the source says that "Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria opposes a Kurdish state", then you change it to say that "they oppose the kurdish national movement with extreme brutality". This is a very controversial article and such statements (or even the most basic widely accepted ones) shouldn't be inserted randomly without an accompanying source, especially by changing other sourced ones.

Or in another case, you put in a statement that says "with Kurdish majority population", but if I'm not mistaken Kurdish people don't make the majority of the population in the Iranian kurdistan and Some parts of the Turkish Kurdistan, due to the Azeri and Zazaki populations.

I am not opposing any of your changes, if properly sourced. Plus sourcing them would also make them more concrete in the article.

Regards, Kerem Özcan (talk) 11:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Kerem, because just as Al Qaeda being a terrorist or a bunch of freedom fighters (as seen by some Arabs) you cannot make changes that are based off of POV, saying that the PKK are "rebels", implies that they are separatists that only commit violence against armed forces--however, it is well documented that the PKK has killed tourists, U.S, French, and British terrorists as well as thousands of other innocent civilians. Their tactics are in-line with wikipedia's definition of a terrorist. — ^talk § _Arsenic99_ 00:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The PKK is a terrorist organization

Please stop any edits on this page to change the introduction from "Kurdistan Workers Party is a terrorist organization" to "Kurdistan Workers Party is a militant organization".

The reason is, the Kurdish Workers Party is listed as a terrorist organization, and calling it a militant group does not describe what the group does. They are there to create their own nation called Kurdistan and they used terrorist tactics to do it.

It follows the wikipedia policies, because Al-Qaeda is listed as a terrorist organization and is described as one in its wikipedia page, you cannot pretend that Al-Qaeda or PKK is any different from each other, because they both commit atrocities that are well documented and reported by world journalists.

If you feel the PKK is not a terrorist organization, you do not know the definition of what a terrorist is. A freedom fighter is one who fights a government for the freedom of their people and nation. A terrorist like the PKK is one who does the same except also harms civilians purposefully in the process. Since there is overwhelming evidence that the PKK does harm civilians, it is a terrorist organization.

If you STILL feel the PKK is not a terrorist organization, then you are welcome to add your "neutrality disputed tag", but do not edit it, because to 90% of the world, the PKK is a world terrorist organization that has harmed not only Middle Eastern people but also Western tourists.98.203.72.229 (talk) 18:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

kurts and turks are brothers

arap kurds are the ones that use turkish yung kurts arap kurts the ones terorist not oll the arap kurts are terorist its ol about pover using yung pepole we dont want mums to cry we dont like killings love to ol pepole living in this worold but tere are pover dont want this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.202.165 (talk) 00:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Well the European Union have ruled out PKK as a terrorist organisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.15.148 (talk) 05:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Improving citations

I moved the US Navy citation (navymil) cite to a sentence it supports. I removed the fas.org cite as it duplicates navymil, and neither explicitly supported the opposition claim, hence my Fact tag. Fas.org does include a map but with illegible labels. Therefore I am unsure of its value even as an external link. Here it is if anyone wants to use it:

• "Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK)". Federation of American Scientists. Retrieved 2008-02-23.

-Wikianon (talk) 14:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I've removed this citation to the UK Terrorism Act because it does not appear to list PKK.

• "Terrorism Act 2000". Home Office. Retrieved 2007-08-14.

Wikianon (talk) 15:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Used Chemical Warfare (citation 47)?

I'm not sure the statement regarding the PKK using chemical warfare is verifiable: I was not able to verify it using citation 47 as it has no links to any books. The two dates in the citation yield no results on google, so perhaps the statement shouldn't be in the article...

99.237.172.93 (talk) 07:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Zaman's report

moving this here. It is misleading, hopefully unintentionally. The source of five people died is not a newspaper, some voice recordings on Youtube allegedly featuring the voice of some high ranking army officer. The report is about this and several other 'voice recordings'. Later Turk Telekom, now a private company, announced that no such voice recording was made by them.

moved text:

These claims were later on contradicted by a report published in the Turkish media, according to which "although the army had officially announced that hundreds of terrorists had been killed in the air strikes that have been conducted since November of last year in northern Iraq, in reality only five had died." [1]

Please check the reference. 128.211.202.45 (talk) 09:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)