Talk:Kushite religion

Anybody want to lend me a hand improving this article?

This is the first article I've created, and I have improved it to the best of my knowledge, but because this is the first article I've created on Wikipedia, I need Wikipedia members who are more experienced than me to take over responsibility for improving this article and bringing it to up to standards. Are there any experienced Wikipedia editors who want to take over the job of improving this article? Nihiluskyloren (talk) 23:24, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Nihiluskyloren can we rename this article Kushite mythology as well as the category, The Nubians were a distinct people who showed up long after the kingdom of Kush, they invaded the Kingdom of Kush during it's decline, they are a distinct culture and people from the Kushites which this article is referring to the mythology of the Kushites, it was the Noba (Nubians) who invaded and conquered Kush/Meroe the Kushites who spoke Meroitic and not Nubian, this is a common confusion in western Egyptology and Nubiology though so I understand, but its like referring to the pre Anglo Saxons Celts in south Britain as "English" hopefully this error can be corrected Jedorton (talk) 23:26, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

@Nihiluskyloren I will come back to lend you a hand. Do you have a reading list?

And @Jedorton make a very sound point. FuzzyMagma (talk) 06:54, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi

Confusing Noba with Nubians is a big mistake and exposes lack of knowledge of the basic precepts of Nubian History.

Kingdom of Kush was not destroyed by the "Noba" ,the 4th century Ezana's Stelae was very clear about who destroyed Meroe, furthermore there is absolutely no archaeological evidence that supports that claim.

Nubian culture and the Nubian language predates Kush. Kushites are not a race. There is no way to know what languages the " Kushites" spoke since Kush was a multi-ethnic state that had an administrative and liturgical language (Meroitic) that appeared only in the terminal stages of Kushite history. Meroetic was not the language of the common folks. The various toponymy of ancient Nubian villages attest to the presence of the Nubians and their various languages since at least BCE 3000, not withstanding the clear archaeological data that has been established after years of excavation that point clearly to a cultural continuity, in textual sources, in settlements , in burial practices , in rituals and in anthropological features.

is there any evidence that the Angles of the Medieval period were not a continuity to the Celts of antiquity ? Other than a change of language , the culture and the people are very much the same .

It is astounding to me that an ill informed amateur would point out that the scientists who put forth one of the greatest achievements in the field of African history would be so insolent as to call these scientist "confused".

Dare I say, verily from what you wrote Jedorton , you are the one that is confused. Kryako (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Deffufa

Hi @Jedorton, how does Deffufa relates to this article? I think it is better suited to be in a seperate article or added to Nubian architecture#Kerma Another thing, where is your source for this information? FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello FuzzyMagma,The Deffufas were a big part of kushite mythology and sacred sites, They were the main religious sites of the kermans and this is according to various sources, I just thought I would add it for that important reason Jedorton (talk) 20:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

this looks like it is been copied and WP:Close paraphrased from Atlas Obscura, see [1] and [2] and I do not think it is relevant anyway. Please also add a reference to what you add into wikipedia FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Jedorton I would recommend starting with writing a draft article and submit it for review. So you will get your head around the Golden rules .. FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

OK that's fine.Jedorton (talk) 20:15, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I Did but can I find a better sources/references to re add them back ? as I many other Nubiologist think their an important part to kusite mythology Jedorton (talk) 20:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I would recommend thinking about the structure of the whole article, and see where does this section fits. With the current article skeleton it is a huge jump to go from a list to a detailed description without providing a context.

Or just added to Nubian architecture#Kerma FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

also avoid WP:Copyright violation .. it is a big no no FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Also can we rename Nubian architecture article to kushite architecture, the Nubians were 1-4 century invaders noba that renamed "Nubia" when the Romans gave it that name the later part was Nubian architecture though, the kushies who spoke Meroitic and the proto Nubians invaders spoke proto Nubian Jedorton (talk) 20:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Jedorton can you please take this proposal to that page's talk, and add refs. Someone then will start a move procedure where others will come and voice thier opinion and vote FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

OKay Jedorton (talk) 20:54, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi MODS

This is entirely incorrect and ahistorical. There is no evidence that the "Noba" introduced Nile Nubian languages to the Nile valley, much less the "Noba" speaking Nubian, as archaeology attests to the presence of different varieties of the Nubian languages since before the establishment of "Kush". Characterization of the "Noba" as invaders is a blatant error and exposes the complete lack of understanding of the basic tenets of History. This point is a political point and not based in archaeology or history.

Meroitic is not and endonym and Kushites speaking Meroitic is anachronistic and confuses the terminology Kushite and Meroites. Nubia is not a Roman exonym and there are no credible historical source that affirm this theory. A theory not based on any scientific, archaeological or linguistic evidence

If the "Noba" were invaders then we must concede that the Meroites were invaders too since they supplanted the Kerman population and change the name original name of Kerma from "Irem" to "Kush". ( There is absolutely no archaeological evidence of any culture change through antiquity and until the middle ages )

Dear Mods, please do not allow amateur pseudoscientists and revisionist of Sudanese history to change well established historical facts just because they have a problem with Nubian history and culture, there is no such thing as present day Kushites , all that survives of that ancient culture survives in the modern Nubian culture. Kryako (talk) 13:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kushite religion/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: A. Parrot (talk · contribs) 05:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This is a topic I've long had an interest in, and when this article was created, I was pleased to see it (and bought the Kuckertz & Lohwasser book after learning of its existence from this article). But I'm afraid I have to quick-fail this nomination.

The most inarguable reason, per the criteria, would be that it has an unquestionably valid maintenance tag because its lead section is inadequate. But that's a trivial problem. The key problem is that the article doesn't address all the main aspects of the topic. Instead it consists of two parts: a history of Kushite religion that frequently digresses into political events that lack any clear religious significance; and a list of deities. The core of any religion is its beliefs and practices, but the article never attempts to describe the overall nature of either one. Key topics such as the religious role of kings or the appearance of Egyptian-style temples in Nubia are touched on in passing but not directly described. Of course, there is a great deal we do not know about Kushite beliefs and practices because of the dearth of written evidence, but the article needs to acknowledge that difficulty and describe what is known.

I also note other problems in sourcing. While most of the sources are of very high quality (though others are not), they are sometimes used poorly. Citation 3 encompasses an absurd number of page ranges, which would make it maddeningly difficult for a source spot-check to trace any of the claims supported by this citation to the relevant page. The assertion that Yahweh may be of Kushite origin does not seem to be supported by any of the citations for it, which instead discuss the origins of Moses' wife. While Moses' Midianite in-laws are an important part of the Kenite hypothesis, I do not know of any scholar who has claimed that the "Cushite" origin of a wife of Moses (who may or may not be the same as Zipporah) implies that Yahweh originated in Kush. To claim such a thing when the sources do not is a serious case of original research, and the claim should be removed.

I think the article needs to be restructured so that the bulk of the article focuses on beliefs and practices, with the history of the religion reduced to one top-level section among several. This is the approach used by most, if not all, high-quality Wikipedia articles on whole religions. Many of the best resources for doing so are already listed here, most importantly Fisher et al. 2012 and Kuckertz & Lohwasser 2019, but they need to be more fully digested and summarized. A. Parrot (talk) 05:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. MiddleOfAfrica (talk) 18:04, 8 October 2023 (UTC)