Talk:Kwanzaa/Archive 8

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Kwanzaa facts being considered for inclusion in the article

These will be considered for inclusion after they are properly sourced. Remember, references should be included for any edit so that article additions can be verified, and to avoid original research.

Kwanzaa is a product of violent black separatism, and Dr. Karenga states that he created it at the height of the 'black liberation' movement as part of a "re-Africanization" process – "a going back to black." Kwanzaa (a rather illiterate attempt attempt by Karenga to coin a Swahili term for "first fruits") was invented as a way of evangelizing on behalf of this. In his book 'Kwanzaa: Origins, Concepts, Practice', Karenga says the holiday offers blacks "an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society." He dropped his former Everett name, adopted the rather grandiose Swahili one, (it is supposed to mean "master teacher") shaved his head, and began wearing his idea of traditional African clothing.

"Karenga’s" so-called Nguzo Saba (seven principles) for his "new black value system" are little more than collectivism transposed into an afrocentric key: Umoja (unity); Kujichagulia (self-determination), which, according to Karenga, refers to afrocentricity; Ujima (collective work and responsibility); Ujamaa (cooperative economics), which Karenga describes as "essentially a commitment to the practice of shared social wealth"; Nia (purpose), which refers to "collective vocation" for black people; Kuumba (creativity); and Imani (faith). However, in "The Quotable Karenga", a book that laid out "The Path of Blackness," the sevenfold path is described simply as, "think black, talk black, act black, create black, buy black, vote black, and live black."

'Ujamaa' was actualy used by Julius Nyere of Tazania to describe his 'African Socialism', which was pretty much a bust. Research needed to see if Karenga borrowed the word, or if Nyere got it from Karenga, cf. Nkruma of Ghana in the '50's borrowing Garvey's pan-Africanist colors of the '20's

To provide a tangible symbol of his seven principles, "Karenga" took the menorah from Judaism, adorning it in Kwanzaa’s seasonal colors (red, black, and green the pan-Africanist colors - Garvey again) and re-naming it the "kinara." No Kwanzaa celebration is complete without the recitation of the Kwanzaa pledge: "We pledge allegiance to the red, black, and green, our flag, the symbol of our eternal struggle, and to the land we must obtain; one nation of black people, with one God of us all, totally united in the struggle, for black love, black freedom, and black self-determination."

"Karenga" and his black nationalist holiday have been eagerly embraced by the apostles of multiculturalism and tolerance (in theory, opposed to racism). In his presidential messages commemorating Kwanzaa, Bill Clinton stated that "Karenga’s" seven principles "ring true not only for African Americans, but also for all Americans … bring[ing] new purpose to our daily lives." In the '90s the mainstreaming of Kwanzaa has proceeded at an astonishing pace. The U.S. Postal Service issued a commemorative stamp in 1997, and the Smithsonian Institution sponsors an annual celebration. There is even an article in the World Book Encyclopedia that legitimized Dr. Karenga as a "black cultural leader." He wrote the article himself. Several books published then cited it as a real holiday (list them). Has much been heard of it for the last few years? If not, why not?

On several occasions, factional quarrels between "Karenga’s" US organization and the Black Panthers erupted into open gunplay, which resulted in the death of several people. US members, similarly attired, often clashed with other black militant groups such as the Black Panthers. The fighting was about which group would control the new Afro-American Studies Center at UCLA.

In 1970, "Karenga" and two of his followers were arrested and charged with conspiracy and assault in the torture of Deborah Jones and Gail Davis, two of his female followers. Believing that the women had tried to poison him, "Karenga" forced the women to disrobe at gunpoint and had them beaten. "Vietnamese torture is nothing compared to what I know," he informed his victims, whereupon he forced a hot soldering iron into the mouth of one while the other had a toe squeezed in a vice. Both women were also forced to consume detergent and a caustic liquid as part of their "discipline."

According to the July 27, 1971 Los Angeles Times, a psychological profile of "Karenga" described him "as a danger to society who is in need of prolonged custodial treatment in prison." The profile noted that "Karenga," while legally sane, was "confused and not in contact with reality."

A May 14, 1971, article in the Los Angeles Times described the testimony of one of them: "Deborah Jones, who once was given the Swahili title of an African queen, said she and Gail Davis were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss Davis' mouth and placed against Miss Davis' face and that one of her own big toes was tightened in a vise. Karenga, head of US, also put detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said."

Back then, it was relatively easy to get information on the trial. Now it's almost impossible. The Los Angeles Times seems to have been the only major newspaper that reported it and the stories were buried deep in the paper, which now is available only on microfilm. And the microfilm index doesn't start until 1972, so it is almost impossible to find the three small articles that cover Karenga's trial and conviction on charges of torture. We have two of the dates here, and could use the third one, anyone want to look it up? That is fortunate for Karenga. The trial showed him to be not just brutal, but deranged. He and three members of his cult had tortured the women in an attempt to find some nonexistent "crystals" of poison (it seems Karenga thought his enemies were out to get him).

And in another lucky break for Karenga, the trial transcript no longer exists. Reporter Paul Mulshine filed a request for it with the Superior Court of Los Angeles. After a search, the court clerk could find no record of the trial. So the exact words of the woman who had a hot soldering iron pressed against her face by the man who founded Kwanzaa are now lost to history. The only document the court clerk did find was particularly revealing, however. It was a transcript of Karenga's sentencing hearing on Sept. 17, 1971.

A key issue was whether Karenga was sane. Judge Arthur L. Alarcon read from a psychiatrist's report: "Since his admission here he has been isolated and has been exhibiting bizarre behavior, such as staring at the wall, talking to imaginary persons, claiming that he was attacked by dive-bombers and that his attorney was in the next cell. … During part of the interview he would look around as if reacting to hallucination and when the examiner walked away for a moment he began a conversation with a blanket located on his bed, stating that there was someone there and implying indirectly that the 'someone' was a woman imprisoned with him for some offense. This man now presents a picture which can be considered both paranoid and schizophrenic with hallucinations and elusions, inappropriate affect, disorganization, and impaired contact with the environment."

Neither his criminal record nor his insuperable difficulties with reality has impeded "Karenga’s" career, however: a few years ago he was professor and chair of the department of Black Studies at California State University-Long Beach. What is his current status?

No one remembers the part about "re-Africanization" or the sevenfold path of blackness that Dr. Karenga once espoused. Hardly anyone remembers the shootings, the beatings,the tortures and the prison terms that were once the center of his life. It's just not done to bring that sort of stuff up now. Dr. Karenga does his part to promote the holiday and forget the past. In December, he used to go on his annual "Kwanzaa circuit" of speeches and appearances. Does he still? If not, when did he stop?

"People think it's African, but it's not," Karenga said about his holiday in an interview quoted in the Washington Post (date needed). "I came up with Kwanzaa because black people in this country wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of bloods would be partying." ("Bloods" is a '60s/70's California slang term for black people, adopted by a later generation as the name of a specific L.A. gang).

West Africa and Kenya are on opposite sides of Africa. Why did Karenga use Swahili words for his fictional African feast? American blacks are primarily descended from people who came from West Africa, (indeed, its nickname was 'The Slave Coast'). Kenya and Tanzania—where Swahili is spoken—are several thousand miles away, about as far from, say, \ Ghana as Los Angeles is from New York. Yet in celebrating Kwanzaa, African-Americans are supposed to employ a vocabulary of such Swahili words as "kujichagulia" and "kuumba." This is like Irish-Americans celebrating St. Patrick's Day by speaking Polish. One possible explanation is that Karenga was simply ignorant of African geography and history when he came up with Kwanzaa in 1966 (that might also explain why he would schedule a harvest festival near the solstice, a season when few fruits or vegetables are harvested anywhere). But, then, there was a lot of interest in Kenya in the 1960's; naming black parts of town 'Nairobi', Lt. Uhuru's name on the original 'Star Trek' and so on. Links to some research on this point would help put Kwanzaa's use of Swahili in context.

from: "On Black Art" by Karenga:

"All education and creation is invalid unless it can benefit the maximum amount of Blacks. Whites can imitate or copy soul, but they can't create out of that context. All nationalists believe in creativity as opposed to destruction and a nationalist must create for the Black nation. All art must be revolutionary and in being revolutionary it must be collective, committing, and functional." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.78.255.105 (talk) 19:18, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Etymology not correct

"The name Kwanzaa derives from the Swahili phrase "matunda ya kwanza", meaning "first fruits"." - This statement should not stand. It is correct that the name is claimed to come from this phrase. But I am not familiar with any concept of "first fruits" in Swahili language or in East Africa. There is in the lands of the Waswahili no season without fruits (like in the northern hemisphere) thus the idea of "first fruits" cannot come from Swahili language. Besides there is no way to make a "kwanzaa" from the word "kwanza" (=first) in Kiswahili Language. --Kipala (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

You are wrong beyond recognition. The concept of "first fruits" exist in every single agricultural society in human history. Come on my man, that is common sense. The Waswahili are Bantu people and the vast majority of them, just like the vast majority of all other Bantu people have been agriculturalist since the beginning of time and are still until today. The word is malimbuko, this word literally means first fruits.

Again, every single agriculturally based society (that is every single human society that lived on other than cows blood and milk-pastoralist-or berries, fruits, and rodents-hunter gathers-) every single one of these societies have first fruit festivals on the calender as a ritual of renew. This is so common sense its amazing you would say there isn't a word for first fruits in Kiswahili. If your people planted food (and that is the majority of humans who ever lived), than you have a word for first fruits, this even goes into your religion, like the resurrection and sometimes combines with religion like Mardi Grai and Carnival.

So, please show more intellectual curiosity. But this is besides the point. Kargenga can call his festival what ever he wants. That is what is known is making history, as opposed to those who sit on the sidelines and provide commentary. All culture is a reinvention and adaption of a previous one. Again, all culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mavinga (talk • contribs) 18:15, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Those are interesting observations. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that indeed this is all bogus, as you suggest. However, as presented above this is what WP calls "original research" or "original synthesis". I don't mean to dismiss it; rather, you may wish to pursue assertions of it within reliable sources. After all, it's imaginable that a phrase whose literal meaning is something like "first fruits" is used metaphorically, or in reference to one or more particular fruits, etc etc. As for "kwanzaa" [double "a"], is there any leeway for idiosyncratic orthography? (To take an example from Japanese, the word ジャーナル might be written within English as "journal", "janaru", "jānaru", "jya-naru", "zyânaru", "jaanaru", etc.) -- Hoary (talk) 01:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

The problem with that comparison is that KiSwahili is written with Latin alphabet, and as such there is no transliteration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.229.17.103 (talk) 16:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Uups I did not look into this discussion for a while.

1. About first fruits (User:Mavinga): your claim looks indeed like an interesting but unsubstantiated orignal research. No, there will hardly be any "first fruits" if we talk about a tropical climate where you have fruits all year round. In East Africa, where Kiswahili is at home, you have the coast (this is Swahililand proper as the name of the language says "Swahili" = Arabic "sawahil" = coast) where fruits grow all year round. Upcountry you have dry and rainy season (s) (some areas 2 rainy seasons) so you have a season of field crops; then still "fruit" comes at different times of the year depending on type of tree and local climate (mangos abundantly in the dry season, more toward its end) - cf [http://www.responsibleagroinvestment.org/rai/sites/responsibleagroinvestment.org/files/FAO_Value%20chain%20Analysis_Kenya%20Case.pdf this FAO-study if you like something to refer to - I see interestingly that in two directly neighbouring areas like Lamu and Tanu River Delta the main harvest periods of 2 annual periods for mango- are different!). Coconut you get all year round. That is very mch different from colder areas where you have a dormant vegetation for some months without any harvest.
2. About "kwanzaa" [double "a"] idiosyncratic orthography (user:Hoary): No, there is no leeway as Swahili has been written with Latin script for more than a century. Kwanzaa is obviously an external neologism created by Karenga in the USA combining "kwanza" (=first) and the verb "zaa" (to procreate, produce). I never met an Swahili speaker who understood this if he was not first given an explanation of this American custom. Reminds me of the German "handy" (for a mobile phone) - this looks English (more so than Kwanzaa looks Swahili) but it is just "Denglish" (Deutsch-English).
3. About freedom of inventing customs ("Kargenga can call his festival what ever he wants") - sure! Then still the claim that this is a Swahili word is just made up. Kipala (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Reliable source

Is this article by Ann Coulter, really a reliable source?VR _talk 05:14, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

An article by Coulter is a reliable source for the thinking of Coulter, that's all. -- Hoary (talk) 05:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Hoary, you're right if you mean we can use it as a source for Coulter's views on Kwanzaa at Coulter's own article (i.e. Ann Coulter). This is because WP:SELFPUB says "Self-published ... sources may be used as sources of information about themselves..." This article is about Kwanzaa, not Ann Coulter. Therefore the sources used here should be about Kwanzaa, and have expertise in African-American culture and heritage etc.VR _talk 04:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

SELFPUB seems irrelevant here. Some person other than Coulter seems to be publishing Coulter. (On the other hand I'm no expert in far-right US websites; perhaps this really is Coulter who is publishing Coulter.) But yes, the article is about Kwanzaa, not Coulter, and Coulter does not seem either to be well-informed about Kwanzaa or to approach it with intelligent open-mindedness. If opinions about Kwanzaa among the hard right themselves become significant, then I suppose that some material such as this can be cited as examples. -- Hoary (talk) 05:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

No it is not because she is a loud mouth and has no serious content to add. it should not be here, she knows Nada about Kwanzaa, did not study the subject, is not African-American. only thing she is is notorious. Since when did notorious = thinker.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 06:49, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the fact that she's not African American matters at all. And in the US I thought that expressing strong if unsupported opinions and outshouting your opponents in TV "discussions" was the prime way to become a quotable "pundit". But you're right about the rest. -- Hoary (talk) 05:55, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The entire passage that states "Moreover, there has always been an element of American society, from conservative political commentators to academics, who feel that Kwanzaa is simply a 'made up' holiday." is entirely pointless. The article CLEARLY states how the holiday was created in the late 60's, and is well sourced. This is a F-A-C-T, so it seems like subtle race-baiting to attempt to place such criticisms at the feet of "conservative political commentators to academics." The facts speak for themselves, do they not? Ynot4tony2 (talk) 19:30, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and Mother's Day, Thanksgiving, Valetine's Day, and others are also made up holidays--every holiday has some point of origin. Festivas for the rest of us. --Nuujinn (talk) 01:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Does that mean we should just strike the pointless passage? Ynot4tony2 (talk) 02:14, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I would be bold, but if anyone objects, we should take time to discuss it. The two sources for that phrase are clearly not neutral, and I see no value in the statement myself, but others may differ. --Nuujinn (talk) 02:20, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I personally see this whole "made up" statement not to mean that the celebration doesn't exist but is a day with no traditional, cultural or religious origin, it was "made up" in the 60's, to legitimise the struggle of the black people of America who were attempting to get in touch with their heritage. This is good in that for those who celebrate it, it has created from the a unifying culture in America and internationally (on a small scale), but has no ancient inspiration. In the same vein Meat Day is a day celebrated by myself, but was "made up" last year. of course I could be wrong, I don;t think anyone can acctually say what was meant by that statement, it seems rather ambiguous to me.--124.171.201.191 (talk) 15:41, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I only celebrate holidays occurring naturally in the wild. - 124.191.144.183 (talk) 10:36, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Why in Gawd's name is this talk page so long?

Why are people so fascinated with this holiday that is celebrated by a few million people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.31.9 (talk) 19:18, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

It's 34kB long, which is not so very long for the talk page of an article. I can guess at the reasons for the popular fascination with this holiday but I have no hard evidence. -- Hoary (talk) 02:52, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Futurama...--124.171.201.191 (talk) 15:32, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

It's 34kB long because of the controversy about Kwanzaa being a fake holiday created by a convicted felon, Ronald McKinley Everett, because of an historical racial resentment. Everybody likes to jump in on these fake-issue Wikipedia articles (such as Kwanzaa, Global Warming, Polar Bears, etc) and they tend to get overly long. Santamoly (talk) 22:27, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the candor with which you reveal your opinion that global warming is a fake issue. -- Hoary (talk) 03:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, but what about my candor over the other two fake issues, Kwanzaa and The Demise of the Polar Bears? Santamoly (talk) 07:38, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

A few million people is actually quite a lot - we have articles on Wikipedia for faiths/communities/practices followed by a few hundred people (and even fewer). There are only about 200,000 Zoroastrians in the entire world, about 70,000 Mandeans, and about 900 Samaritans. Those are all faiths/communities with, compared to Kwanzaa, a relatively long history, but if you care to do the research, you can find groups with members numbering in the mere dozens, and with an even shorter history, who have even longer articles on Wikipedia. - 124.191.144.183 (talk) 10:10, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Popularity section issues

In the Popularity section, the article states:

and now between half and two million people celebrate Kwanzaa in the US, or between one and five percent of African Americans. Mayes adds that white institutions now celebrate it.

Two issues with this. The first is that the US population is currently around 300 million (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html). This means that 1/2 to 2 million people is less than one percent, not 1 to 5 reported. I would correct it, but the second problem is that the link gives a 404 (http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/897568.html).

Catherguy (talk) 13:33, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Never mind. I misread it. "1-5 percent of African Americans" not of Americans. Still, it'd be nice to fix that citation.

Catherguy (talk) 21:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

If this is November...

it must be Kwanzaa-protection time. Semi-protected until the season passes. Twerps. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 22:23, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Aw, the children who want to vandalize the article have decided to vandalize the talk page since the main page is semi-protected. Twerps. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

LOL It is that most wonderful time of year when Editor protection comes out in full. Another year. Happy Kwanzaa. Also the good Dr. Maulana Karenga article will need a tab bit as well.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 05:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 December 2011

Ujamaa is for cooperative economics not family.

Senecavaught (talk) 20:09, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. I put back what was there until recently. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 04:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

just wondering =

why is there no information about how this holiday was created by a former member of the black panthers? His intentions were purely racist, even if that isn't what Kwanzaa means today. This is an encyclopedia of truth, not selective knowledge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.73.88.73 (talk) 18:43, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The article says who created the holiday. You can read about him in the article on him. Do you have a reliable source for your claim that his intentions were purely racist? If so, let's see it. -- Hoary (talk) 06:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

(a) Wikipedia's article suggests that the Black Panthers was a racist political movement ("black nationalism [was] part of the party's philosophy"); (b) and the Black Panther's Ron Karenga is a convicted felon. Santamoly (talk) 07:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Wasn't Kwanzaa's founder actually an opponent of the Black Panther's? In any event, he was certainly a black nationalist, although that this is equivalent to racism is debatable. I tend to think it is, but then, I tend to think all nationalism is. More importantly, nationalism is nationalism, and so, while not necessarily the exact same thing as racism, is just as stupid (and that applies to all your own nationalisms - American, French, Jewish, " [insert own country here] is the best in the world !!! " etc.) ("and by the way, I happen to be from [own country, race, ethnicity], so therefore I must be pretty great as well ! ") - 124.191.144.183 (talk) 10:29, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

"Further reading"

The article tells us of "further reading".

• A program to raise the faith level in African-American children through Scripture, Kwanzaa principles, and culture, Janette Elizabeth Chandler Kotey, DMin, Oral Roberts University,1999
• The US Organization: African American cultural nationalism in the era of Black Power, 1965 to the 1970s, Scot D. Brown, PhD, Cornell University, 1999
• Rituals of race, ceremonies of culture: Kwanzaa and the making of a Black Power holiday in the United States,1966—2000, Keith Alexander Mayes, PhD, Princeton University, 2002
• Interview: Kwanzaa creator Ron Karenga discusses the evolution of the holiday and its meaning in 2004, conducted by Tony Cox. Tavis Smiley (NPR), 26 December 2003
• Tolerance in the News: Kwanzaa: A threat to Christmas? By Camille Jackson | Staff Writer, Tolerance.org, 22 December 2005

I understand what the last one is, as there's a link to it. The last but one appears to be a radio program aired seven years ago: how should one read that? As for the others, I don't know what they are. Ideas? -- Hoary (talk) 06:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I was bold. -- Hoary (talk) 06:54, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Hah! Not bold enough. I'd guessed that Mayes' Rituals would be a book published by Princeton UP. Wrong: it's an unpublished PhD dissertation. Well, it's absurd to tell the readership of WP to read an unpublished PhD dissertation, so I removed the recommendation to read it. (No offense intended to Dr Mayes, who may have generated published articles or even a book from it.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:11, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Personal opinions

I think the holiday is a joke, given its founder's reputation as well as his conflicting statements about whether it should be celebrated instead of Christmas. However, since those statements are included in the article, I have no problem with leaving it as is. Comments by Ann Coulter and others probably reflect opinions stemming from political leanings and are not encyclopedic—unless they are themselves inherently a topic of encyclopedic interest. 66.234.204.13 (talk) 20:07, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Ann Coulter is a legally-certified media person, being a former legal staffer to a judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit, and for the Senate Judiciary Committee. She's careful with her facts, although bombastic in expression. None of this means her work is "not encyclopedic"; some of it may well be. Santamoly (talk) 22:55, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

What are being discussed here, statements of fact (or not) attributed to Coulter, or comments attributed to Coulter? (The IP asks abut the latter, the reply is about the former.) -- Hoary (talk) 03:33, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

If people don't like Coulter's facts, they'll say it's "comments" Santamoly (talk) 06:01, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

What does "legally certified" mean? Certified by whom? Under what law? The Mark of the Beast (talk) 06:05, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

It means she's a constitutional lawyer, with a doctorate in law (J.D.) from the University of Michigan, hence recognized by US legal system, and the courts, as an expert on the law. Santamoly (talk) 07:50, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Even if that weren't hogwash, this article is about Kwanzaa, not Coulter. Jonathunder (talk) 16:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Brazil Popularity

If there is a problem with a source we have verification tags, what we do not need is editors inserting there editor opinion "But I dont think the sources are credible" it doesn't work like that. Deal with the quality of the reference. Because we only go by what the references say, if they say Brazil, then it is Brazil, cant change the source.unless you find alternative information.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

February 2012

I have just reverted two edits by an anon whose edit reasons were "i changed African Amerfican to black bro" and "i changed african american to blacks becuase not just black people from from africa and therefore they should not be called that if you can come up with a name that will fit please record so".

Granted that not all Americans of African descent are black, it's at least as true that not all "Blacks" are African-American, so arbitrarily changing one to the other doesn't really help the situation. The tenor of these edit reasons also does not give me confidence that these edits have been made following serious and sincere consideration of the issues.

Adding random asides about the origins of Christmas is also not helpful, even when the addition doesn't break a template in the process. — Paul A (talk) 02:30, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Lack of criticism

Many media figures, black and white, have criticised Kwanzaa for its origins and its inventor's history. This is notably absent from the article, despite being an important and relevant encyclopaedic issue. The fact that this is so clearly omitted is evidence that there is significant bias in this article's authorship. This must be rectified. 60.226.138.94 (talk) 12:49, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Its Principle and Symbols reads like something out of a KKK manual. I propose to attach the wiki label regarding racism to the Kwanzaa page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.190.209.14 (talk) 04:04, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

It is relevant for the article to discuss the controversy over a black festival that was made up in 1966 and doesn't have any roots in Africa. Arguably Kwanzaa was made up as an expression of hatred of the WASP culture - it has parallels to Christmas rituals in Nazi Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.172.56 (talk) 14:13, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism

This article has been vandalised, I'm not sure where to revert it to. So I just thought I'd bring it to the attention of someone who could fix it properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.101.61 (talk) 08:34, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

It is a Pan-African Diaspora Holiday

Why state American and Canadian in that laboring lead? It has official observance in those two countries (and we should clarify that) but is Simply celebrated in the African Diaspora, it is celebrated in the Caribbean, and parts of South America, so the simplest statement would be African Diaspora, Karenga calls it a Pan-African Holiday, not a African American, or Black Canadian Holiday. It is also celebrated even in South Africa. Karenga "As an African American and Pan-African holiday celebrated by millions throughout the world African community, " Inayity (talk) 15:24, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

You have any relevant source for Kwanzaa being celebrated in Africa?? (beyond the odd African American working over there who celebrates it there same way as foreigners celebrate Christmas in Saudi Arabia?) - this is an American invented celebration - and whatsoever Mr. Karenga wants it to be will not change reality any more than other mere claims 21:19, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Good thing there is a film called Black Candle which shows it being celebrated all over the world, the entire point of the film is to document that. Here is a R.s. grio celebrated in Africa. But I am not drilling the continent thing, just that it does exist outside of America, and Canada. --Inayity (talk) 22:09, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Verification of founder's background and beliefs

"During the early years of Kwanzaa, Karenga said that it was meant to be an alternative to Christmas, that Jesus was psychotic, and that Christianity was a white religion which black people should shun.[5] However, as Kwanzaa gained mainstream adherents, Karenga altered his position so that practicing Christians would not be alienated, then stating in the 1997 Kwanzaa: A Celebration of Family, Community, and Culture, "Kwanzaa was not created to give people an alternative to their own religion or religious holiday."[6]"

The links to these statements are dead. These assertions either need to be verified or removed form the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morganwomen (talk • contribs) 06:27, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I believe it comes from a book called -Quotable Karenga by one of his detractors. So maybe it is a dubious quote.--Inayity (talk) 07:17, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

The article has a number of dead links; I've called them out. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 22:27, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Bad code of ref 21, I dont know how to fix it.Inayity (talk) 22:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Mm, I think a bot will pick that up and fix it. But that ref was a badly formed link too. Maybe I can find it in the history. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 22:36, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Bots are cool! --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 22:40, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

The Quotable Karenga was edited and published by Karenga's organization and I see no reason not to rely on it for his ideas at that particular time.98.207.57.82 (talk) 12:00, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Correct to what I said earlier, The book was done by one of his members who has since turned into a detractor. If there is a copy of the book we could see it would be good to verify what it says.--Inayity (talk) 13:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a copy of the book, but there are various non-hostile works on Google Books that quote it and I've assembled some of the quotes in the new Karenga Wikiquote article. Karenga has a record of opposition to the terrorist character of the Abrahamic god and Christianity's anti-materialism. He has stated these positions in works that are primarily about Kwanzaa. They're nothing unusual in criticism of Christianity but I suppose quite appealing to conservatives who are looking for soundbites to use against him. 98.207.57.82 (talk) 23:47, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Then we should add the other sources to strengthen what we cannot check in the Quotable Karenga book.--Inayity (talk) 00:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

As it stands, I can't add anything. 98.207.57.82 (talk) 16:50, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Post here and someone will add them. i.e. edit request.Inayity (talk) 18:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)