Talk:Läther

Unreliable Sources??? - Really???

Some citations that came from the website Discogs.com were recently removed from the article. Regardless of whether you believe the information on Discogs to be a source of reliable OPINION, the references do show pictures of the actual items in question. They prove that there is a market for these rare items and that they are real and DO EXIST. It is not OPINION as to the existence of these items it is FACT. The assumption that sites such as Discogs do not or cannot post reliable factual information is flat out ridiculous.

Several other similar web sources (IE: Popsike) have reported information that is in agreement with Discogs. This further supports the argument that items such as the Phonogram "Läther" test pressing and the Edison Records bootleg box are FACTUAL and REAL. So what exactly is the argument against Discogs and similar sites? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.213.218 (talk) 19:31, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

• A question: since this is a 3 CD box, why are the songs listed as an eight-sided vinyl?... I think this is unneccessary. This way its quitehard to tell which song is on which CD - and anyway: there was NEVER a eight-sided vinyl. hm? mmBálint, Hungary —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.131.82.192 (talk) 16:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I understand your confusion, but it is incorrect to say that the package was never an 8 sided vinyl album. The package was prepared by Zappa as 8 vinyl sides in 1977 and widely bootlegged in this and other forms for about 20 years. So many fans are familiar with it in that format. Still, I think it is a good idea to clarify the difference between the bootleg vinyl and CD editions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zoni4316 (talk • contribs) 05:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks!!! mmB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.131.82.192 (talk) 16:10, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

• I'm a little confused by the statement "The album does not include "Baby Snakes", a song which was originally planned for the album but never included on any known recording." Unless there is a specifically different version associated with this collection, "Baby Snakes" appears on the album Sheik Yerbouti. 24.63.25.206 (talk) 00:45, 22 March 2013 (UTC)delzey

References

CD release confusion

From the text: "When the material was first released on CD while Zappa was alive (??? Zappa died in 1993, the CD release was in 1996 ???) he chose to issue the 4 individual album configuration"

Lather wasn't released as Lather until 1996, but the 4-album "versions" were first released on CD - here in the UK via Zappa Records, Music For Nations - in 1991 [source: http://www.lukpac.org/~handmade/patio/vinylvscds/sleepdirt.html etc]

So am about to edit out the bit in question marks :c) 92.62.2.239 (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The first CD releases of music from Läther were in the U.S. in 1991 on Zappa's Barking Pumpkin label (distributed by Capitol Records.) The overseas releases came later. Zappa was very much alive when the masters for the first CDs were prepared. Though it is correct that he had died by the time Läther had officially appeared on CD in 1996.--anonymous

No mention of this in Billboard article here, which states that Lather was first officially released by Rykodisc in 1996.WTF (talk) 04:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

The four individual albums came first

It's plainly inaccurate to state that FZ ever delivered Lather to Warner Bros, or that they refused to release it. He didn't, and they didn't. He delivered the tapes for Zappa in New York, Studio Tan, Sleep Dirt and Orchestral Favorites to Warners, and they failed to pay FZ a contractually obligated amount of money within a contractually obligated amount of time. Since they never paid and were in breach of contract *AND* they still had FZ's tapes in their possession, he THEN created the four-LP set and delivered it to Mercury/Phonogram, believing he was free to do so because Warners had violated the terms of their contract. There is a Warner Bros. ad in a June, 1977 issue of Rolling Stone which announces the release of Zappa in New York as "imminent." The 2-track masters for Lather were not even created until July-August 1977 (a brief note dated 8-21-77 is visible on one of the track listings inside the booklet of the Lather triple CD on Rykodisc.) You can't simply state that Lather was "re-edited" into the other albums, as some of them contain material which is not on Lather and the reverse is also true, as it contains material that was recorded both before and after ANYTHING on the four individual albums (the "newest" material on Lather is taken from live tapes recorded in London in February 1977.) This article really needs some work done on it to reflect what actually happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.63.54 (talk) 01:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, that doesn't wash. Frank Zappa said in HIS OWN WORDS in a 1977 Record Review interview it was intended as a 4-LP boxed set; Gail Zappa - who most assuredly knew FZ's intentions, also backed up that account.50.111.36.238 (talk) 10:25, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, but the reasons why this DOES WASH is that it is confirmed by several Zappa interviews from the period. Gail only made her claims after Frank's death.

https://www.afka.net/Articles/1979-04_Oui.htm

This interview is an example where Frank specifically claims he delivered "four albums" to Warner, meaning, exactly what he says FOUR SEPARATE ALUBMS. Right after saying this he follows it up by mentioning two of these albums by name. These are "Zappa in New York" and "Studio Tan". These were the first two of the four that Warner put out and they appeared in 1978. In the interview Zappa also says "they" (Warner) are "getting ready to release another one". This most likely was "Sleep Dirt" which appeared in January 1979. Aside from Gail's mistaken posthumous comments there never has been any evidence that Zappa actually delivered the 4 album Lather box to Warner. Zappa has never been quoted as saying that he delivered Lather to Warner. Lather is one album, not four albums. Sorry, but Gail got things wrong sometimes. 75.172.192.233 (talk) 09:37, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Four individual albums

If anyone still thinks that Läther came first then they should read the Record Review interviews with Zappa here: https://www.afka.net/Mags/Record_Review.htm#1979-04

There are many reasons why Läther did not come first. Here are 8 of the best ones:

(1) Nowhere in any of the 3 Record Review interviews, or anywhere else, does Zappa say that he delivered Läther to Warner. He says that he delivered "4 albums", meaning exactly what he says 4 INDIVIDUAL ALBUMS. The interviewer thinks that Zappa is talking about Läther or a 4-LP set but Zappa NEVER says this. Instead he said "4 albums" and he used this phrase in the interview more than once.

(2) A 4-LP box would not have fulfilled the Warner contract because it would be one release, not 4 releases. In fact, Zappa's comments in the interview imply that he only got the idea of releasing a 4-LP box AFTER having an argument with a Warner executive about releasing the 4 individual albums.

(3) The latest tracks on Läther are live recordings in London from February 1977. The songs are "Tryin to Grow a Chin" and "Broken Hears Are for Assholes". This is AFTER all recording of the rest of the material on the 4 individual albums. The Feb 1977 tracks on Läther could not have been included on the 4 individual albums because those albums had already been completed. These 2 tracks would not have fit into the 4 individual album collection because most of it was studio recordings and the live recordings on the individual albums were all from New York, not London. Different recordings of these 2 tracks were done later and ended up on "Shiek Yerbouti".

(4) When Gail claimed that Läther came first it was nearly 20 years after the fact. In light of what we already know about her character Gail's comments are not reliable. Crazed fanatics that study the details actually know much more Zappa history than she did. When the official release of Läther appeared in 1996 she had an agenda, which was promoting a "new" album.

(5) The Läther tapes were compiled in July/August of 1977. Notes from the tape boxes show this date, which is AFTER "Zappa in New York" had already been scheduled for release. The ZINY recordings come from December 1976 and overdubs were done in early 1977, thus making the expected release date sometime in the Spring or early Summer of 1977. We also know that a release date was scheduled in June 1977.

(6) The claim that Zappa played Läther on the radio in 1977 because he was upset with Warner not releasing Läther is not credible. This is because Zappa's troubles with Warner goes back further than 1977. Zappa was upset with Warner over not paying for the 4 individual albums, not because of the failure to release Läther. Warner got the 4 individual albums, but not Läther. The dispute between Zappa and Warner goes back to at least 1976 with the release of "Zoot Alures" and may have started even earlier.

(7) One of the reasons Warner did not release Läther is because Frank didn't submit it to them. We do know that Frank submitted the individual albums in 1977. That is the reason why Warner was able to release them later. And, no there is no reason to suspect that Frank would have submitted both versions. His goal was to get out of the Warner contract ASAP. There is NO reason to think he would have submitted more than the minimum number of recordings required by the contract.

(8) Ok folks, you asked for it, that's right, here's the smoking gun. The editor of this 1978 interview says "the 4 records were re-edited, put in a box and titled Lather (pronounced leather). It was supposed to be released by Mercury/Phonogram, but for "suspect reasons" it was not." Case closed! Read the whole interview for yourself here: https://www.afka.net/images/Magazines/1974/1978-04-19%20Eggz%20page%2008-09.jpg

This is another earlier 1978 interview which says the same thing. This was also used as a reference for the interview above: https://www.afka.net/Articles/1978-01_Melody_Maker.htm 75.172.192.233 (talk) 11:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

CD version vs. "planned" four-album set

Article states While the official CD version of Läther released is based on the planned quadruple album, it contains deviations from the original version, such as the additional spoken interludes and percussion-based sound effects. The 4-LP test pressing, the records that FZ played on the radio and all subsequent bootlegs derived from both include the spoken and percussion interludes (FZ referred to them as "grouts"). The CD version is exactly the 2-track masters that were located in the vault. I believe Joe Travers and Spencer Chrislu have both stated that while one of the tape boxes does show a slightly different track listing (the one that contains "Baby Snakes", pictured in the CD booklet) the tape found inside that box matches what was on the test pressing. 65.25.63.54 (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

 Done. While this is what I've always heard, Gail Zappa's liner notes to the original CD seem to imply that additional tapes were used. Not to mention that the production is referred to as "the resurrection and reconstitution of "Leather." Friginator (talk) 17:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Läther/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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Start-Class criteria: Y An infobox. Y A lead section giving an overview of the album. Y A track listing. Y Reference to at least primary personnel by name. Y Categorisation at least by artist and year. C-Class criteria: Y All of Start class criteria. Y A reasonably complete infobox, including cover art. Y At least one section of prose (in addition to the lead section). Y A track listing containing track lengths and authors for all songs. Y A "personnel" section listing performers, including guest musicians. Y A casual reader should learn something about the album. B-Class criteria: Y All of B-Class criteria. N A completed infobox, including cover art and most technical details. Y A full list of personnel, including technical personnel and guest musicians. N No obvious issues with sourcing, including the use of blatantly improper sources. N No significant issues exist to hamper readability, although it may not rigorously follow WP:MOS.

Last edited at 18:14, 6 September 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 22:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)