Talk:LMS Coronation Class/GA1

GA Review

Latest comment: 7 years ago21 comments3 people in discussion

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Reviewer: Bob1960evens (talk · contribs) 22:34, 18 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

I will review. I will work through the article, making notes as I go, and return to the lead at the end. Can I suggest that you mark any issues fixed with comments or maybe the Done template. I am not in favour of using strikethrough, as it makes the text difficult to read at a later date, and it is an important record of the GA process. Bob1960evens (talk) 22:34, 18 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

I'm in the process of moving house and it is complicated by the fact that the houses are in different countries!!! Will be back on the case soon. 213.181.72.73 (talk) 19:16, 15 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

Design history

Section headings should use sentence case, not title case (See WP:MOS), and so this should be "Design history", not "Design History". This also applies to "Construction history" and "Automatic warning system". Done
...had provided the LMS with more powerful locomotives... LMS should be introduced in the body of the article, as well as in the lead. So: " London Midland and Scottish Railway (LMS)" on first occurrence. Done
it could be seen by 1936 that more such locomotives would be needed, particularly as it was intended to introduce a new non-stop service between those cities. Suggest using third person, rather than passive voice. So: "the company realised by 1936 that more such locomotives would be needed, particularly as they intended..." or similar. I have used the board of directors as the third party rather than "the railway" because it was the board who authorised such policy decisions
Initially, it was planned to build five more Princess Royals... As previous comment, suggest "Initially, they planned..." Done
persuaded Stanier that he could design a locomotive... Stanier needs introducing and linking in the body of the article. So "William Stanier, the Chief Mechanical Engineer..." Also, it is difficult to know whether the "he" in "he could design" refers to Coleman or Stanier. I assumed initially it was Coleman, but I suspect it is Stanier. Completely rewritten to prevent any ambiguity
a bigger boiler of great steam-raising capacity. Suggest "a bigger boiler with greater steam-raising capacity." Done
The driving wheels were increased... Suggest "The driving wheel diameter was increased...", as the number of wheels remained the same. Done
and cylinder diameters increased... Suggest "and cylinder diameters were increased..." Done
Outside cylinders were moved forward and only two sets of outside valve gear were used with rocking shafts to operate the inside cylinders. Suggest "The outside cylinders were moved ... with rocking shafts to operate the two inside cylinders." In fact the whole paragraph has been edited
the LMS marketing department threw a spanner into the works. This is far too colloquial. Suggest "the LMS marketing department upset the design process." or similar. Done
This was problematic in that the new design was so large... This sentence is long and rambling, with no punctuation. Suggest a comma at "main line, and it was" as a minimum. The sentence has been broken up by using a semi-colon

I believe this is now satisfactory. Hoots Mon (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Construction history

Locomotives

painted Caledonian Railway blue with silver horizontal lines that was repeated... Was it just the silver horizontal lines that were repeated. If so, should be "...that were repeated...". If the whole livery was applied to the coaches, suggest rewording, so "painted Caledonian Railway blue with silver horizontal lines, with this livery also being applied to the coaches..." or similar, to avoid confusion. The paragraph has been entirely rewritten to provide clarity
were also built streamlined (at an average cost of £11,323 each)... "built streamlined" does not read well, and the brackets disrupt the flow. Suggest "were also built with streamlining, at an average cost of £11,323 each, ..." or similar. Done
They were painted in the more traditional crimson lake... Should be "a more traditional", since the crimson lake livery has not previously been mentioned. Again the paragraph has been rewritten
These locomotives came at an average cost of £10,659 for the first five... "came at" reads awkwardly. Suggest "These locomotives cost an average of £10,659 for the first five..." or similar. Done
It can be seen that the names of the cities in this batch were intended to be in strict alphabetical order. This came to an end... "It can be seen that" is not appropriate, since it relies on the reader's judgement. Suggest "The names of the cities applied to the locomotives were initially in alphabetical order, but this scheme ended..." or similar. Done
In 1944 another batch of four, Nos. 6249–6252, was at last built in unstreamlined form... Not sure what "at last" implies. Suggest "...was built without streamlining..." or similar. Done
At last the hanging smoke issue was addressed and smoke deflectors... Again, "At last" has implications that are unclear. Suggest "In order to address the hanging smoke issue, smoke deflectors..." or similar. Done
who succeeded both Stanier (following his retirement) and Stanier's immediate successor Charles Fairburn (who unexpectedly died in office). Suggest removing the brackets to improve the flow. So: "who succeeded both Stanier, following his retirement, and Stanier's immediate successor Charles Fairburn, who unexpectedly died in office." Done

I believe that this is now satisfactory. Hoots Mon (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Tenders

Overview

Whilst nearly fifteen of the tenders remained wedded to their original locomotives, This is a single sentence paragraph. Suggest joining to the following paragraph. Done

I believe this is now satisfactory. Hoots Mon (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Modifications

Single chimneys were initially fitted to Nos. 6220–6234 when built. Both "initially" and "when built" mean the same. Suggest "Single chimneys were fitted to Nos. 6220–6234 when built. Done}
removal of all streamlining casings and it was removed from the fitted locomotives from 1946 onwards. Should be "and they were removed" because "casings" is plural. Done
larger cab windows - often, but not necessarily... An unpaired dash does not work well. Replace with comma. Done
The sloping top led to the train-spotters' nickname of Semis... From here to the end of the paragraph is not referenced. Can this be supported? Although, the term semis is widely known, finding a source is more difficult than one would think, so I have deleted it. Other references have been given at the end of the sentence but it emerged that one of the facts was wrong. This was because I had obtained it from the table of locomotives and after I had checked the data in the table I had to make one or two corrections. One of these changes had not been followed up by amending this paragraph. I have now rechecked.
(except No.46242 City of Glasgow which was rebuilt in 1952 following its collision at Harrow and Wealdstone). Suggest removing the brackets, and "following a collision", since the collision is not mentioned in detail until later. Done
the shoe would detect this and sound a bell in the cab. This clause needs linking to the previous part of the sentence. Suggest "which was detected by the shoe and sounded a bell in the cab." or "and the shoe would detect this to sound a bell in the cab." Done
UK's most disastrous SPAD ever at Harrow and Wealdstone, Was this the one mentioned above involving City of Glasgow. If so, this should be clarified. Done
(essentially similar to ATC but relying on... Long bracketed clauses do not work well. Suggest slight reworking to remove the brackets. Re-written

I believe this is now satisfactory. Hoots Mon (talk) Hoots Mon (talk) 13:57, 31 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

Additional comment: As I have deleted the references to the semis, I shall amend the caption to the first photograph and replace it with a reference to the sloping shoebox. Hoots Mon (talk) 20:24, 31 July 2017 (UTC) Smokebox!! Hoots Mon (talk) 20:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC) DoneReply

Liveries

LMS Shop Grey was carried briefly Not sure that Shop Grey warrants capitalisation. Done
Insignia for both Caledonian blue and crimson lake liveries were in unshaded sans-serif. This is another single sentence paragraph. Suggest amalgamating with the previous paragraph. Done
Black was the overriding colour for this period (with one exception). Another single sentence paragraph. Join to the following one, and remove brackets. Done
The following two batches, Nos. 6249–6255, were constructed without their streamlined fairings again painted unlined black with red-shaded yellow numerals and lettering. This does not quite make sense. Try reworking to clarify what is meant. Re-written
29 of the 37 locomotives were kitted out in the LMS-style lined black livery. "kitted out" is too colloquial. Try rewording. Done
was painted in a blue/grey colour. Suggest "blue-grey" as in the following paragraph, to avoid use of slash (See WP:MOS). Done

The British Railways era

However, the Scottish locomotives based at Glasgow's Polmadie shed (under the separate control of the Scottish Region)... Suggest "Polmadie shed, which were under the separate control of the Scottish Region..." to remove brackets. Done
its Heavy General repair Again, this does not warrant capitalisation, here or in the following paragraph. Suggest "a heavy general repair". Done
with their new BR No. and replacing... "No." should be "numbers". Done
and even coats of arms to be replaced... needs a comma. So: "and even coats of arms, to be replaced...". Done
The emblem, shown on the right, was nicknamed 'the unicycling lion'. "shown on the right" is inappropriate. See MOS:IM, and in this case, there is no image on the right, anyway. Modify the captions if necessary. Another contributor decided to delete the appropriate picture and caption
BR crest was replaced with a new one, shown on the right. Again "shown on the right" is inappropriate. Ditto
This inability of the locomotives to operate on the line they were designed... This does not quite make sense. Suggest "on the line for which they were designed..." Done

I believe this is now satisfactory. Hoots Mon (talk) 16:44, 25 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

Shed allocations

The Government had issued a plan that decreed that in such an event... This sounds a bit convoluted. Suggest "The Government had decreed that in such an event..." and maybe linking this sentence to the previous one with ", as the Government..." to aid the flow. Done
As the 1960s progressed, the lines from Crewe to Liverpool and Manchester had already been electrified and now the electrification crept south from Crewe towards London Euston. This is difficult to unravel, as it suggests that the Liverpool to Manchester section had been electrified before the 1960s progressed. Try reworking, to clarify, and I suggest "was extended" rather than "crept" would be better. Done
The bulk of the class was situated at either Crewe North or Carlisle (the Kingmoor shed (12A, 68A from 1958) now being used in addition to Upperby). Suggest removing outer brackets, so "The bulk of the class was situated at either Crewe North or Carlisle, where the Kingmoor shed (12A, 68A from 1958) was now being used in addition to Upperby." Done
Others were hustled from shed to shed... Suggest "moved" rather than "hustled". Done
Drawbar horsepower (the power conveyed directly to the 20 coach train)... Suggest "Drawbar horsepower, which represents the power conveyed directly to the 20 coach train..." or similar, to avoid the brackets. Done

I believe this is now satisfactory Hoots Mon (talk) 19:54, 27 August 2017 (UTC)Reply

Records

The LNER was to gain its revenge... I am not convinced that words like "revenge" are appropriate in this context. Try rewording. Done

1948 locomotive exchange trials

then finally on the Southern Region (SR) between... This sentence does not complete. Suggest replacing "then" with "and". Re-written
(and well below the third lowest); but its power output... The final clause does not stand on its own, so the "but" should follow a comma, not a semicolon. Done
On the WR, arrived at Plymouth, the coal consumption was so low... The "arrived at Plymouth" clause makes no sense. Suggest removing it, or expanding it. Re-written
any other facet of performance; but when coal... Another "but" after a semicolon. Replace with a comma. Done

Withdrawals

With no credible role, the die was cast: Suggest replacing the idiomatic "the die was cast" with something more fitting for an encyclopaedia. Done
Up until March 1964 the withdrawn locomotives were cut up for scrap at Crewe Works, Since this does not refer to the Coronation Class, suggest "Until March 1964, withdrawn locomotives had been cut up for scrap at Crewe Works," Re-written to clarify the intended meaning

One significant change is the deletion of the suggestion that consideration was given to use the Coronation class to augment the SR's pacifics. This is because, firstly, the on-line reference from the NRM is no longer viewable. Secondly, I have found another source which suggests that this might have been the case, but back in the early days of nationalisation when the SR's unrebuilt Bullied pacifics were prone to breakdown.

Preservation

No. 46233 Duchess of Sutherland

No. 46233 now started to earn its crust... Too colloquial. Suggest "...now started to generate income..." or similar. Done
Currently it is still owned by the Princess Royal Class Locomotive Trust... Words like "Currently" have a habit of ceasing to be true, but the date of the event is not obvious. Suggest "In 2016" or similar. Date is October 2016 as that is the date the website was accessed}}
end of Birmingham New Street Station - the locomotive was too large... Suggest "...Station, as the locomotive was too large..." to improve flow. Done

No. 46235 City of Birmingham

the opportunity was taken to take it into the museum's custody. "taken to take it" reads awkwardly. Suggest "the museum took the opportunity to purchase it." or similar. Done
and it wasn't until 1972 that the building was completed. Avoid contractions. Suggest "and the building was not completed until 1972." or similar. Done
...where it remains to this day. Another phrase that may cease to be true. You could just remove the phrase, or replace it with "...where it was still on public display in 2008/2016." depending on which ref you use. Date is October 2016 as that is the date the website was accessed

That is the text reviewed. I will move on to the references next. Back soon. Bob1960evens (talk) 13:20, 21 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

I believe this is now satisfactory. Hoots Mon (talk) 15:24, 14 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

References

It has not been possible to check all of the references, as most of them are from printed books, and the reviewer does not have access to many of them. However, where it has been possible to check them, the references generally support the text as written. There are a few issues.

Ref 82 Electric All The Way. This is a 32-page pdf file, and needs a page number. One of the paragraphs I deleted or rewrote must have dropped a reference and this now Ref 81. I have found a better source and referenced it as suggested
Ref 119 Railway Vehicle Information Sheet... This generates a "Service unavailable" error. The assertion that the Coronations were considered for duties on the SR has been dropped and this reference has been deleted
Ref 131 LMS(R) Steam Locomotive with Tender... This generates a "Service unavailable" error. Strangely enough, this is now working again! Incidentally, for reasons stated above, this reference now drops to Ref 129
Ref 145 Collection. This generates a "Something went wrong" error. The publisher is shown as "thintank Birmingham science museum." I think that should be "Thinktank", as in the article. This, for obvious reasons, is now Ref 143. The entire Birmingham museums website had been transformed (for the better) and this reference is now up to date, albeit I can find nothing better than photographic evidence

I believe this is now satisfactory. Hoots Mon (talk) 08:20, 16 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

Images

I am not sure that the inclusion of the King Class image, just to show the livery, is particularly relevant. Deleted. Yes, it looked like a poor excuse
It is not obvious why the picture of Crewe North is included. If it is relevant, its capion needs to explain why. Deleted

I believe this is now satisfactory Hoots Mon (talk)

Lead

The lead should introduce the article and summarise its main points. It serves as an introduction, built fails to summarise the main points of the article. I would expect three or four good-sized paragraphs for an article of this length. At the moment, there is nothing from the Liveries, Shed allocation, Records, exchange trials, Accidents or WIthdrawals sections. Re-written

I believe the re-write is for the better. Hoots Mon (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

The formal bit

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
See comments above
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
See comments above
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
See comments above
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

That is the review completed. I will put the article on hold, to give you some time to address the issues raised. If anything is not clear, please mention it, and I will try to clarify. Bob1960evens (talk) 21:35, 29 July 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Hoots Mon:. I was wondering what the status of this review is. Are you indending to address the remainder of the issues? It has now been nearly a month with no obvious progress. Perhaps you can let me know. Thanks. Bob1960evens (talk) 16:05, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply
@Bob1960evens:. I am in the middle of a complex house move to Spain, which is why everything has come to a halt. I now have wifi access and little to do before the furniture arrives on 9 September so I can press on. It is definitely my intention to finish. Will ping you again if there are any issues. Hoots Mon (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Reply
@Bob1960evens:. I only have the lead to edit, which I am working on. Hoots Mon (talk) 09:18, 22 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Hoots Mon:. Great. I will leave it on hold for a little longer. Bob1960evens (talk) 22:55, 22 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Bob1960evens:. Right, can you take a look at the article now, please? Hoots Mon (talk) 16:38, 25 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

I have rechecked the article, and agree that all of the issues raised have been addressed. Well done on producing an informative and interesting article, which I am happy to award GA status. Keep up the good work. Bob1960evens (talk) 12:38, 26 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

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