Talk:La Révolution Française

Requested move 17 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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• La Révolution Française → La révolution française (rock opera)
• La Révolution française (film) → La révolution française (film)

– Move the two articles to disambiguated titles in sentence case (Proper nouns are not capitalised in French) and retarget La Révolution Française and all capitalisation variants to the primary topic of French Revolution. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 17:48, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Survey

• Support, but looking at French Wikipedia, the titles are fr:La Révolution française (opéra rock) and fr:La Révolution française (film). This seems to support the capital R, lowercase f spelling. So:
  • La Révolution Française → La Révolution française (rock opera)
  • La Révolution française (film) → La révolution française (film) 162.208.168.92 (talk) 20:17, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Yes, I understand, that's fine. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 11:33, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
• Maybe Oppose  – per IP 162, that is, to "La Révolution française (rock opera)" and "La Révolution française (film)", but only if examination of the usage of the French term in English determines that the French Revolution is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term La révolution française in English reliable sources. If it turns out, that La révolution française usually refers to, say, the film, then the film should be entitled "La Révolution française" without WP:PARENDIS, per WP:NCFILM#From other topics. Finally, however the PRIMARYTOPIC examination turns out, both article titles should be italicized, per WP:Article titles#Italics and other formatting (but the parenthetical term, if any, should not be). Mathglot (talk) 08:47, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  Changed to oppose; nothing advantageous would come of it. Some of the arguments about "what révolution française" means, are going about things backwards. It's about what the user is *searching for*, and delivering that as expeditiously as possible. Nobody typing 'révolution française' into English Wikipedia is looking for the French Revolution; they are either looking for the rock opera, or the film (probably the film) and redirecting the unqualified search term as suggested would not improve the search experience for anybody. Mathglot (talk) 07:44, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support both moves per nom. Per WP:RECOGNIZE and WP:ASTONISH, "La Révolution Française" would mean the French revolution to any normal English speaker, whichever way it's capitalised. Neutral on La révolution française (film) vs La Révolution française (film) - go with whichever predominates in sources.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose La Révolution Française → La révolution française (rock opera) and La Révolution française (film) → La révolution française (film), but would support La Révolution Française → La Révolution Française (rock opera) and La Révolution française (film) → The French Revolution (film) per its title at the UniFrance website. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:11, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. This proposal is not only a solution to a non-existing problem, it creates a problem as well. First of all, nobody is going to be searching for an article on the French revolution in the English Wikipedia with the term for the war in French. Secondly, with the current configuration at least those searching for the rock opera will be taken directly to their sought article; the others, searching for the film, are one click on a hatnote link away. If the film is more likely to be sought a primary topic swap might be appropriate, but users are better off with either article at the base name than having a dab page there. A dab page at the base name means everyone has an extra click. The "solution" to a non-issue proposed here would harm the encyclopedia – making it worse for users. ––В²C ☎ 05:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

I'd like to see some evidence of what the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is for "La Révolution française" before I change my temporary "Maybe" vote to something concrete. Mathglot (talk) 08:47, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

A search in Google Books (from the UK) shows over the first few pages no results for the film or rock opera, and most results for the French Revolution. A search in Google Scholar (from the UK) shows over the first few pages no results for the film or rock opera, and most results for the French Revolution, with some results for the phrase used in general terms or an idiomatic way for a revolution in France. The first few pages of a plain Google search (from the UK) is overwhelmingly about the French Revolution or a connected idiomatic use, with some mention of the film. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not seeing what you do. A plain Google search returns mostly web pages and videos about the film (and one about the rock opera), including iMDB, Amazon, various YT sites with people commenting on the film. On the FR topic itself, we have one Brittanica article about a book by Jules Micehelet, one professeur de lycee with an accompanying web site, and a general article about the FR by a coin company.

top ten web results for "La Revolution francaise" -wikipedia

For this query, we get these ten results: La révolution française (1989) - IMDb - 5 hour 1989 film by Robt Enrico, Brandauer, Seymour etc. La Révolution française - Version intégrale ... - Amazon.com - 1989 film La révolution française , Partie 1 et 2: Movies & TV - Amazon.com - 1989 film A Cinematic Revolution? Sources, Imagery and Interpretation - article about the 1989 film Result #5 is several video results bunched together and indented - 2 of 3 about the French revolution film Video 1 - some YT guy translating the film with his own subtitles Video 2 - some YT guy from Quebec with 2M views Video 3 - serious course video about FR by a professor in a Lycee, goes along with this course: H1-1 La Révolution Française et l’Empire, une conception nouvelle de la Nation La Revolution Francaise (1990) - Turner Classic Movies - TCM Allô prof - La Révolution française (1789) 7 min YouTube video about the FR Before 'Les Miserables,' there was 'La Revolution Francaise - about the rock Opera (LA Times) Histoire de la révolution française Britannica article about Jules Michelet's book about the FR Vive la Révolution Française! - Littleton Coin Company Blog web page about the FR by a coin company Note: repeating the same query on different browsers sometimes changes the order of a couple of results, adds or drops a video in the bunched result #5, or adds a new Brittanica result, but doesn't affect the overall mix of results.

I haven't tried books, yet, and likely their results will be different for a number of reasons, including the minimum 40-book threshold, which will likely favor the historical French Revolution over a film. How to give proper weight to disparate results in books and web results is an interesting question. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:57, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Yes, that is interesting! I think I'd resolve it by asking the man on the Clapham omnibus. In my imagination he talks about the guillotine, not the rock opera. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:43, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

So my question is, how much WP:WEIGHT should we give to what the man on the Clapham omnibus says, or rather, what he says in your imagination, versus what the data found in reliable sources in web and other searches has to say? In my imagination, the man on the Clapham omnibus says, "show me the search result data". But, I could be wrong. Mathglot (talk) 07:06, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.