Talk:Lady Henry Somerset

Untitled

The following biography of Lady Somerset appeared in The New Encyclopedia of Social Reform (1908) Funk & Wagnalls Co., New York and London.

"SOMERSET, LADY HENRY: Daughter of Earl Somers of Eastnor Castle, Herefordshire; president of British Woman's Temperance Association; born in London, 1851. She was married in 1872 to Lord Henry Somerset, the second son of the Duke of Beaufort.

For some years Lady Henry was often at court, and a leader in the fashionable society of London, but this position was not congenial to her tastes.

Leaving London in the year 1878 for one of her father's beautiful country places, she remained there for many years in comparative retirement with her son. In 1884 Lord Somers died, leaving Lady Henry Somerset heir to Eastnor.Castle, Somers Town (London), and Reigate. The responsibility of administering an estate involving a tenancy of more than one hundred thousand persons deeply imprest the mind of Lady Henry Somerset, and in a crisis hour she seemed to hear a voice saying to her: "Act as tho God were and thou shalt know He is." This was the turningpoint of her destiny, for she renounced society, broke away from her former relationships at the cost of criticism and alienation, and went with her son to Eastnor Castle, 100 miles from London, where for five years she lived among her tenantry without comradeship of any kind save as Christian workers, whom she invited, came and went from time to time. She built chapels, hired missionaries, held meetings for the miners in Wales near where she had spent some years of her married life, and in every way improved the condition of those dependent upon her. Mrs. Hannah Whitall Smith, an American lady and a leader in the Woman's Christian Temperance Union, came to Eastnor by invitation, and from her Lady Henry Somerset heard the history of the crusade in Ohio, the organized movement which followed it, and the wide sweep of the World's Woman's Christian Temperance Union. By Mrs. Smith's request, Lady Somerset consented to accept the presidency of the British Woman's Temperance Association, which had been founded as the result of a visit made by Mother Stewart to Great Britain in 1876. This was in 1890. In 1891 Lady Henry, with Mrs. Hannah Whitall Smith, came by invitation to the first convention of the World's Woman's Christian Temperance Union in Boston, Mass., presided over by Miss Frances E. Willard. She was so deeply imprest by the White Ribbon women and their work that she remained six months in America, being associated with Miss Willard in the editorship of the Union Signal, the organ of the women's White Ribbon movement.

In April, 1891, Lady Henry Somerset returned to London. In August of that year Miss Willard lost her mother and went to Eastnor Castle. By their united efforts the British Woman's Temperance Association was reconstructed on the lines of the modern temperance movement as illustrated in the World's Woman's Christian Temperance Union, the central idea of which is to correlate the temperance movement with other reforms such as the enfranchisement of women, the labor movement, the social purity movement, all of which are inextricably intertwined with the temperance reform itself.

In the previous year, 1892, Lady Henry had assumed the editorship of a London paper called The Woman's Herald, but in 1804 the name was changed to The Woman's Signal. It is now the leading woman's paper of Great Britain in the world of philanthropy and reform.

Lady Somerset is strongly opposed to all organizations and declarations in which " profession mocks performance." She has more and more connected herself with the labor movement and with a practical "Christian socialism."" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tryde (talk • contribs) 11:41, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

they went thataway and thataway

The sentence about the son being born should come after the part about the happy marriage. Then should come all the information about the husband's homosexuality. I make this mistake a lot myself and that's why I picked up on it. It gives conflicting signals and makes it look as if the writer isn't really thinking about the material just copying random sentences. 71.163.114.49 (talk) 11:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

name of article

Since she was only "Lady Henry Somerset" for the the six years of her marriage, and it says "she resumed the style of Lady Isabella Somerset" should the article be titled "Lady Isabelle Somerset"? or at least refer to her throughout the article as "Lady Isabella"?

Nosrednaharas (talk) 15:29, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

• This move was not properly performed in 2017, and I requested the move here.--saebou (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

This new comment seems confusing. I do not find any record of a 2017 move, properly performed or otherwise. I think the new comment is just referring to the 2017 comment, not to any move or formal RM discussion. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

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Title

Why is she Lady Henry if she was already a lady by birth? -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 04:37, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

It was the trend. Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife, became Princess Arthur of Connaught despite already having been a princess of the United Kingdom. It may also have had to do with her marrying up in rank. She was the daughter of an earl while her husband was the son of a duke. Surtsicna (talk) 14:46, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 14 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - Whilst numerically the !voting is evenly balanced, the case that the present name is the common name was well made-out and not decisively rebutted by the support !voters. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 14:24, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

---

Lady Henry Somerset → Lady Isabella Somerset – As mentioned in the article, this person "won the court case in 1878 and resumed the style of Lady Isabella Somerset", and after 1878 she used "Lady Isabella Somerset" as her official style. Because of this name change, the article title of this person in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography is "Somerset [née Somers-Cocks], Lady Isabella Caroline [Lady Henry Somerset]", and the ODNB calls her "Lady Isabella" in the article. The British Museum also registers her as "Lady Isabella Somerset". There is also an academic article which calls her "Lady Isabella Somerset". According to Wikipedia:Article_titles#Name_changes, "When this [a change of name] occurs, we give extra weight to independent, reliable, English-language sources ("reliable sources" for short) written after the name change". Since this person is called "Lady Isabella Somerset" in recent reliable sources, the name of the article should be "Lady Isabella Somerset". The move was already proposed in 2017, but it was not performed. saebou (talk) 08:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 21:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. FOARP (talk) 08:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. See Google Ngrams, Google Scholar. Note that pretty much everything that has been written about her or that she published was after the 1878 separation, since she became a public figure in 1890 (according to ODNB) when elected to lead the British Women's Temperance Association. Nonetheless she was and is most commonly known as Lady Henry Somerset. (I don't know what Saebou means in asserting that she used Lady Isabella Somerset as her "official style", but she published under the name Lady Henry Somerset. E.g., Under the Arch (1906), Some Aspects of Inebriaty (1908).) SilverLocust 💬 09:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

  According to the ODNB, "A custody battle ensued over their only child, which she won in 1878; she thereafter adopted the style of Lady Isabella Somerset".

  Furthermore, for the female authors in the past, the article names do not always correspond with the names which they used as authors, partly because many of them used names related to their husbands, which is sometimes confusing. Margaret Cavendish never published her works as "Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle-upon-Tyne" but mostly as "Duchess of Newcastle", but the article title is Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle-upon-Tyne. The article title of Madame de Staël is Germaine de Staël, although she is commonly known as Madame de Staël.--saebou (talk) 12:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Temperance and Prohibition, WikiProject Women in Religion, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Council, WikiProject Women's History, WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism, WikiProject Biography/Politics and government, and WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom have been notified of this discussion. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 • [𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺] 22:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Agree with move from Lady Henry Somerset to Lady Isabella Somerset. There is evidence she used both names and others. In this case I think it's more than a matter of counting which name she used the most to determine her "common name". saebou has shown that Lady S preferred to use her original name after her separation and especially considering Lady S was a women's rights campaigner, I think editors should respect her decision to use her own name. The Oxford DONB has done so and this is in accordance with WP guidelines .LPascal (talk) 11:24, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. The relevant naming convention is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#British nobility and it's complex with many exceptions, but the application here seems plain to me. Andrewa (talk) 10:16, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Support per MOS:IDENTITY. At best the oppose arguments have made it non-obvious which titling the subject of the article was commonly known by, but IDENTITY can override WP:COMMONNAME. LPascal and saebou have spoken to what the subject of the article preferred to go by in their arguments for the move. 122141510 (talk) 04:12, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY which you cite reads When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by recent reliable sources. So it doesn't seem to me to support the move at all. Andrewa (talk) 09:50, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

The next sentence in MOS:IDENTITY says "If it is unclear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses." So because there is evidence that various names were used, and not one commonly used one, but that the person preferred to use her original name after she separated, I think it is more respectful if Wikipedia uses the name Lady Isabella chose to be called by. I think Wikipedia editors can make this decision to honour a woman's preference for using her own name as part of its efforts to address gender bias in biographical articles instead of asserting guidelines. LPascal (talk) 06:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

• Lady Somerset was a feminist who separated from her husband and renounced his forename. Clearly, the right thing to do in the circumstances is to respect her decision by giving her her right name, so I would support this.—S Marshall T/C 13:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  She did not renounce public use of the title Lady Henry Somerset, which is how she was subsequently known as the president of the British Women's Temperance Association (where there surely wasn't someone else telling her what name to use) and in her published works. And how she went in private is not a consideration for WP:COMMONNAME (incorporated in MOS:IDENTITY), which is "the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources)". The common name is made very clear by the Google Ngrams results I linked above.

  Also note that she wasn't "Lady Somerset", nor was her husband "Lord Somerset". Lord Somerset and Lady Somerset were Edward Seymour, 16th Duke of Somerset and Rowena Seymour, Duchess of Somerset. As the second son of a duke, Henry had the courtesy style of "Lord Henry Somerset" without actually being a lord, just as Isabella was born with the courtesy title of "Lady Isabella Somers-Cocks" as a daughter of an earl. It's only for a wife of a second(+) son of a duke/earl that "Lady [husband's title]" yields the strange "Lady [husband's first and last name]". SilverLocust 💬 21:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  I don't doubt that you're correct about the technicalities of the Lord and Lady titles, and that you correctly cite Wikipedia's recondite and labyrinthian rules in the Manual of Style, which is a part of the encyclopaedia that's passionately contested and curated by a minority who really care about it. I'm also sure that you're right about the words the sources use.

But I think it's more complicated than that.

My position is that the technicalities of titles are outweighed by the need to respect Lady Isabella's real life and relationship with her husband; that the Manual of Style is a poor guide to complex edge-cases like this one; and that the exact wording that sources use is not a straitjacket for us. I respectfully direct your attention to WP:OUROWNWORDS in this regard. I feel that our articles have to mean what the best sources mean, but we don't have to crib sources' wording, and on matters that relate to feminism, we must be particularly careful not to crib historical sources that were produced when historical attitudes prevailed.—S Marshall T/C 10:09, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is not our job to correct titles to reflect modern sensibilities. It is our job to report the facts. And the fact is that her common name was very clearly Lady Henry Somerset. That's the name she used herself (even after the separation) and that's the name that was used to refer to her. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:48, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree with Necrothesp above. Lady Somerset is known in all the literature as Lady Henry Somerset, in accordance with a convention that still applies. It is not our job to decide on her behalf how she felt about naming conventions, especially when they were attached to the law, her status in society, property rights, and the rights of children. Her ability to support other women in the way she did would have depended on them. She may have wanted to change some things but it is not our job to say that this was one of them. Whiteghost.ink (talk) 12:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.