Talk:Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford

LMH vs. L.M.H.

I'm posting this here rather than (re)editing the article to avoid any unnecessary accusations of edit wars etc! Just so there's no confusion, my edit of L.M.H. to LMH was not vandalism in any way; I genuinely believe the use of full stops to be wrong in this case. I have never once seen an instance of LMH written with full stops on any document, whether that be student newspaper or the College's official website, which is actually written by the SCR, and, therefore, believe my edit should not have been reverted. Obviously I'd be happy to hear other people's opinions, though.Libatius 09:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

This seems to be confirmed here. Baldwin Clere (talk) 09:49, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

And LMH would be consistent with Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Abbreviations. Edwardx (talk) 10:23, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Picture in Infobox at top

I inserted used the photo of Talbot in the infobox at the top, but it would be preferable to have a striking photo of the front quad -- does anyone have access to one that they may upload?

Fair use rationale for Image:Lmh-crest converted 45.gif

Image:Lmh-crest converted 45.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

removing four paragraphs

About to remove an entire chunk of four consecutive paragraphs. Here is the text to be removed, with inline comments re the rationale for removing it.

Access to the river allows the JCR to operate a punt house popular with students.

Rationale for removing: punting already noted above; this adds nothing extra.

Membership of the MCR entails significant benefits for students. These include graduate dinners and an allocation of 4 free formal dining tickets. The MCR also subsidises many events including cinema trips, theatre outings, ballet and ad hoc events as requested by members.

Rationale for removing: This is an encyclopaedia, not a student guide.

LMH currently demands one of the highest rents for undergraduates in Oxford at £1095 per eight week term (although students are entitled to stay for an additional week either side of term time).

Rationale for removing: As per above para, also potentially contentious and unsourced.

Long term residents of the college are the ducks which can be frequently seen waddling across the quad. One of these, Reg, was granted full membership of the Junior Common Room in order to stand for JCR Presidential elections in 2005.

Rationale for removing: Possibly frivolous; unsourced.

— Alan^✉ 18:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Notable Alumni

Why is Nicky Blair (son of Tony Blair) a notable alumni? Surely a notable alumni is someone who is notable in his/her own right and not because he/she is the offspring of someone who is notable. Has Nicky Blair achieved anything that is exceptionally notable? If not he should be deleted from the section. 86.149.131.104 (talk) 01:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

motto

The motto is from Lady Margaret Beaufort. It's a triple pun, intended both to mean 'remember me often' , 'I often remember' and, as it is always above doorways, 'I often pass under'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.242.241.97 (talk) 18:28, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, it is the Beaufort motto.[1] Baldwin Clere (talk) 16:00, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Invitation to Women in Red's Role Models editathon on Women's Colleges

Please forward this invitation to all potentially interested contacts

		Welcome to... Role Models meetup and online editathon Facilitated by Women in Red Help us to spread the news
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--Ipigott (talk) 11:59, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

History

There is a brief history of Lady Margaret Hall to be found online as part of A History of the County of Oxford: Volume 3, the University of Oxford. It might be useful in fleshing out parts of the article with non-primary sources if somebody wants to do it. It can be found here.Baldwin Clere (talk) 15:59, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Culture and Traditions

The Culture and traditions section is odd. It has a mish-mash of things in it some of which are not really related to the college and should be put elsewhere. Then there is the bit about the Quadrangle, which I am tempted to remove altogether, or at least modify. It says quadrangle, but does not specify which. What I do know is that along one side of the Deneke Building, there is a lawn, the Fellows Lawn, which is reserved for fellows, and that there is a Fellows Garden. Baldwin Clere (talk) 09:11, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Official name

The official name given in the article has been up to today (Aug 23, 2017) been The Principal Council and Members of Lady Margaret Hall. Prior to the Charter of 17 March 1926, as amended by Supplemental Charter of 31 December 1953, Supplemental Charter of 23 December 1960, Supplemental Charter of 1 June 1978 and Supplemental Charter of 7 June 2012, this may have been the case, but, the Charter clearly states that the name was changed from this to The Principal and Fellows of the College of the Lady Margaret in Oxford and again to The Principal and Fellows of the College of the Lady Margaret in the University of Oxford which seems to be the current name. Baldwin Clere (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

References

Notable people

I have moved the "Notable people" section to List of Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford people, leaving a summary. Please improve the section or the new list as necessary. TSventon (talk) 15:05, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Processing of sexual assault cases

For personal reasons that I will not discuss except as required by policy, I am unable to edit neutrally on the topic "the handling of sexual assault cases at Lady Margaret Hall", which we would call a (non-financial) conflict of interest. I have a bias against the college. However, coverage broken by The Times certainly warrants content in this article. I can provide copies of these Times sources by email to anybody interested: Oxford college rape claim: ‘They tried to convince me not to complain’, Minister demands action at Oxford college that silenced rape accuser, The Times view on sexual assault at Lady Margaret Hall: Third-Class Treatment. Derivative news reports have been published by The Guardian, Evening Standard, Times Higher Education and WION.

I can provide my personal opinion on any article text on this topic, but will not edit this content directly (except for uncontroversial changes like grammar). — Bilorv (talk) 13:51, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for being open about your COI and personal opinion. I've also been thinking about how to best include it, could you please provide copies of the Times sources via email? LMH has a long history (though less long than some other colleges :P), so we will have to think about how to avoid recentism. 15 (talk) 14:53, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

@15: I tell a lie about this one, actually, but I've sent the other two Times sources. — Bilorv (talk) 15:43, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I tend to think that such individual cases only rarely belong in college and university articles, precisely to avoid the problem of recentism, but having read much of the original Times coverage I can see why you think this crosses the line. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 15:23, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, on the topic of recentism (and WP:BLPCRIME, which was the other thing I considered) I think the articles are not really about one specific reported case of rape so much as they are about the college's general processes for handling reports of sexual violence. (And in that sense, on BLPCRIME, it actually doesn't really matter as to whether the accused rapist is convicted/guilty.) One Times article reads: "The Times has spoken with or seen written testimonies from eight Lady Margaret Hall students and graduates whose university experience was marred by sexual assaults and harassment and who felt their safety concerns were played down." And as much as Rusbridger may be part of the headline, I don't think the factual content reported in reliable sources is so much about him as it is the broader safeguarding process LMH has (or does not have) in place. — Bilorv (talk) 15:48, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I think you need to be careful here in disinguishing between LMH itself and the Rusbridger Principalship: he introduced many innovations, not all of which will stand the test of time. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 23:19, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I am biting my tongue quite painfully here to avoid arguing from first-hand experience and information, but I do not believe there is any indication that Rusbridger dramatically altered the college's safeguarding processes (which he should only have been one part of). This is said despite my strong distaste for his principalship. While we're here: The Independent also report the story, and it develops with further scrutiny over the college's failure to report an incident to a regulator as it was required to do. — Bilorv (talk) 10:20, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Developing as you say. I assume we're talking about a couple of sentences? More would definitely be recentism. There's no immediately obvious section to put this in, and I'm loathe to create a "Controversies" section, so thoughts on this would be very welcome. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 20:29, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

The article has a great deal of crap currently—I see you've trimmed a little and it's been on my longlist for years to sort it out (I may never get round to it), so due weight is only really a theoretical concern when we have about three paragraphs on Old Old Hall, almost entirely lacking secondary sources. But a couple of sentences would probably be the right length in a better version of the article.

I think "Controversy" sections are always wrong: I would choose to put this under "Student life", or if you are strongly averse to that idea then under "History". — Bilorv (talk) 22:29, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

I would prefer putting this under "Student Life" too ("History" contains a very general overview of the college's history, this more specific recent issue would stand out in "History"), but I'm not sure how much of the section will be left after cleaning up the article. 15 (talk) 23:31, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

I have been clearing out the worst of the crap, though it's a slow business. A couple of sentences at the end of the main "Student life" section sounds OK. Is 15 the least conflicted of us and so the best person to try a first draft? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 14:21, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Pinging 15 and Jonathan A Jones—if either of you could propose a couple of sentences, that might help advance (or revive) the discussion. — Bilorv (talk) 12:52, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

The story continues with LMH signing a pledge to not use NDAs in future: BBC, The Times, The Times. — Bilorv (talk) 21:10, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks; I saw the Times but not the open BBC report. I've been away/busy, hence the lack of progress. But I think this development makes things easier, as we can say something like "In 2022 Lady Margaret Hall was the first Oxford college to sign a government-backed pledge on ending non-disclosure agreements in cases of sexual misconduct (BBC). This followed a claim by an undergraduate that she was threatened with expulsion if she spoke about an alleged assualt by another student, and made to sign a confidentiality agreement by the then Principal Alan Rusbridger. (Times). The college initially disputed her claim, but it was subsequently settled by his successor Christine Gerrard (Times), who described the pledge as part of reforms to strengthen safeguarding procedures. (BBC)". Feel free to make suggestions if you think this is too long or too supportive of the college or whatever! Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:21, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

@Jonathan A Jones: I think adding that text would be a net positive, and thank you for writing it. To make a counter-proposal:

In 2022, Lady Margaret Hall was the first Oxford college to sign a government-backed pledge on ending non-disclosure agreements in cases of sexual misconduct (ref). This followed reporting by The Times that eight female LMH students felt unsafe after the college's response to their complaints of student sexual violence between 2015 and 2021. One undergraduate said that she was threatened with expulsion if she spoke about being raped by a man who was previously reported to the college for sexual violence, and was made to sign a confidentiality agreement by the then Principal Alan Rusbridger (ref). The college initially disputed the undergraduate's claim, but Rusbridger's successor Christine Gerrard paid damages to the woman (ref, ref). In addition to signing the pledge, the college initiated a review of its reporting procedures in consultation with It Happens Here, a student anti-sexual violence campaign (ref).

Main changes: The Times report about eight undergrads and grads, not just one, and the word used for the main case study in the publication's own words is "rape", not "assault". "It was subsequently settled" sounds like a moral description but is presumably intended to mean a legal settlement. Added LMH's review of its reporting procedures. I've gone through three drafts to try to make it as concise as possible, but mine is still a bit longer than yours.

Feel free to add whatever version you want to the main article, since my text may be too emotionally loaded or negative, but I thought I'd throw it out there. — Bilorv (talk) 11:45, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I think the last sentence is excessive, and in a situation as prone to challenge as this I prefer to rely non non-paywalled sources where possible, so I'll stick to the BBC and the Guardian (thanks!) as far as possible. Otherwise I'll adopt some but not all of your suggestions. Obviously other editors are free to change any of this! Jonathan A Jones (talk) 18:39, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

My next draft text

In 2022, Lady Margaret Hall was the first Oxford college to sign a government-backed pledge on ending non-disclosure agreements in cases of sexual misconduct. This followed reporting by The Times that eight female LMH students felt unsafe after the college's response to their complaints of student sexual violence between 2015 and 2021. One undergraduate said that she was threatened with expulsion if she spoke about being raped by a man who was previously reported to the college for sexual violence, and was made to sign a confidentiality agreement by the then Principal Alan Rusbridger. The college initially disputed the undergraduate's claim, but under Rusbridger's successor Christine Gerrard settled the case and paid damages to the woman. Gerrard described the pledge as part of reforms to strengthen safeguarding procedures.

References

Could you fill in the missing bits of the Times refs please (and check I have them right!) as while I have seen these articles in the past I don't have access to all of them right now. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:04, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Yep, Jonathan A Jones, I've edited the refs directly above. Looks great to me. — Bilorv (talk) 20:25, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Perfect, thanks. Now copied to article space. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 07:45, 1 May 2022 (UTC)