Talk:Ladyfinger (biscuit)

vs langue de chat

What's the difference between Lady Finger biscuits and Langues de Chat? Or are they essentially the same thing? If so, the article needs to reflect the alternate name. (Langue de Chat is in fairly common use in English, despite obviously being French for "Cat's Tongue".) DWaterson 21:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, if Langues de Chat (which I've never heard of) are the same thing as Katzenzungen in Germany, then they're made of chocolate, while ladyfingers are made of a flour-based cookie dough. —Angr 13:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I saw some Langues de Chat in a delicatessen yesterday and had a look at the recipe. These were made by the French biscuit maker LU ([1], although they aren't on that website). Essentially, Langues de Chat appear to be quite a light and crispy cake, like a small, thin, plain, oblong-shaped Madeira cake but with a crispier outside [2], where as Lady Fingers seem to be dryer, harder, sweeter and sugarier. Fairly similar though. They don't appear to be anything like Katzenzungen, however. DWaterson 20:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Where did the name "Lady Finger" come from? 68.5.100.14 (talk) 05:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

For that matter, it's not clear from the article if "ladyfinger" is a regional North American term for a certain foodstuff that has other names in the rest of the world, or a global standard name that has regional derivations in lesser countries. Which is it? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 18:25, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm South African and I've never heard these things called anything other than finger biscuits, and I've certainly never heard them called boudoir biscuits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.237.8.111 (talk) 13:30, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

(Moved comment above - please leave new comments at the bottom of a talk page section, not the top.) Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 10:53, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

genoise?

I changed the description in the intro to the article from "génoise cakes" to "sponge cakes." Most ladyfinger recipes use a biscuit-type batter (where the egg yolks and whites are beaten separately, then folded together) rather than a genoise-type batter (where the yolks and whites are beaten together, with butter usually added). Flo Braker is the only cookbook author I know of who uses genoise batter. Since there was no source named, I thought the more generic "sponge cake" would be more appropriate. Patrick Colvin (talk) 03:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

History

The text claims that the first written recipe was by Carême (1783-1833), but does not cite either time or source of publication.

Alan Davidson in Oxford Companion to Food (2014, 3rd ed.), headword "sponge cake", refers to a recipe for "spunge biscuit" probably meant for Savoy/boudoir biscuits (as it says "bake in little long Pans", and the recipe itself obviously is for sponge cake/biscuits) in Mrs Mary Eales's Recipts (second corrected ed. 1718, repr. ed. 1985). (See https://books.google.se/books?id=PTVdAAAAcAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=Mrs%20Eales%20spunge%20biscuit&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q=Mrs%20Eales%20spunge%20biscuit&f=false for original text.)

Larousse Gastronomique (2009, 1st American edition), in article "Savoy sponge cake" says "It was probably made for the first time for Amadeus VI of Savoy in about 1348", but without providing any source. (It has no entries for Boudoir bisquits/cakes or Ladyfingers.)Athulin (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Name

I have added "glacebröd" on the authority of C. E. Hagdahl: Kok-konsten (2nd. ed., repr. 2015), and several later Swedish cook books. The term "savoiardikex" remains, but it sounds rather foreign in this context; it does appear in modern product names, but I suspect it may be a translation from some other language.

Origin

The source say they were created in the Duchy, not specifically in the county of Savoy, which back then wasn't France I suggest adding Italy or use the same criteria as bagna cauda 79.17.172.126 (talk) 12:47, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

The first recipe is from french chef Careme, and Savoie is a French region 77.205.68.13 (talk) 16:14, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

There are no sources that confirm that. And back then it was not. Furthermore, ladyfingers were invented in the County which included Piedmont and may have been invented in Piedmont79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:16, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a source about the recipe of Careme, the rest is just a legend and anyway Savoie is a French region. 77.205.68.13 (talk) 16:17, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

One questionable source. many other

says something different 79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:19, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes Savoie which is in France not in Italy 77.205.68.13 (talk) 16:24, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Again, not back then. 79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Back then it was an independant state, still not italy 77.205.68.13 (talk) 16:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't put Italy, I put Savoy and Piedmont 79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:43, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

But it is not from Piedmont, only Savoy 77.205.68.13 (talk) 16:44, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It's from a State that included Piedmont 79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:45, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes but invented in Chambery Savoy 77.205.68.13 (talk) 16:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

No. The sources doesn't say were it was invented, only where they were showed 79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:47, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

And it wasn't France 79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:47, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It is called savoiardi in italian not piedmontardi 77.205.68.13 (talk) 16:44, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Again, Piedmont was included. One of the sources I have also call them Italian ladyfingers

They are not French fingers 79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

lady fingers 77.205.68.13 (talk) 16:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, not "French" 79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:47, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Piedmont was not even part of the county of Savoy, check it 77.205.68.13 (talk) 16:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

It was, Turin was a part of it 79.17.172.126 (talk) 16:56, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

References

County of Savoy

County of Savoy here is the wikipedia article. It was only a part of modern France, and a bit of Switzerland actually. The captal was Chambery and the court was in Chambery. Then the sentence "it was served at the court" can be understood as served in Chambery. Also, this is presented as a legend, the only fact we have here is taht the first recipe comes from the french chef Careme 77.205.68.230 (talk) 12:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@JacktheBrown You are making a confusion between duchy of savoy generally and the county. In the 14th century the duchy did not exist already. What we call the county was only a small territory in modern France around Chambery, the duchy was created later and included Italian Piedmont and more territories. 77.205.68.230 (talk) 13:05, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The Marque of Piedmont and Turin were part of one county under Amedeo VI 79.17.172.126 (talk) 19:47, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Not part of the county of Savoy 93.23.14.246 (talk) 07:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes it was, Turin was under Savoy dynasty and part of the county 79.17.172.126 (talk) 09:11, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Antonin Carême

Do we have a verifiable source for Carême's being "the first written recipe"? Sinclair's Dictionary of Food (at least the online version being linked to in the footnote) doesn't mention him in the short 32-word entry for langues de chat. Belbury (talk) 17:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not langue de chat but ladyfingers or boudoirs or savoiardi Yonasse (talk) 17:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Xiaomichel, see investigation)

Sinclair lists them as synonyms, his actual entry for lady fingers is "see langues de chat". Belbury (talk) 17:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)