Talk:Lakenvelder

Fabulist Breed Origin

I have removed the utterly unsubstantiated, and unsubstantiable paragraph which gave a detailed (and completely imaginary) ancient history for the Lakenfelder, including a date (1 CE!) when it was supposedly brought from the Levant by Roman Jewish immigrants. This piece of fabulism has all the earmarks of a certain current or former Wikipedia editor responsible for a variety of fanciful to fraudulent ancient breed histories (often involving the Fayoumi or middle eastern traders or the red or green junglefowl). I find it upsetting that no one noticed this and took care of it sooner. Please note that none of the cited references for the page give so much as a whisper of support to the section which I removed. Nor did the German Wikipedia page. IMO simply adding a "citation needed" would have been insufficient. Please look at the other poultry contributions by 71.169.168.40 (diff) for some similar examples of historical fiction (fortunately, these other edits have long since been reversed). Please contact me with any concerns, can certainly provide more info about the saboteur but do not think it appropriate to post it here. Krnntp (talk) 13:49, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Untitled

This article consisted of one line with incorrect information. I am in the process of collecting information on this breed in order to create a more informative page. I will be making several small changes to it in the near future and then adding a large amount of new content in a few weeks time.Upfoamer (talk) 03:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Chickenbreed Infobox

A new infobox {{Infobox Chickenbreed}} has been created for chicken articles. If you see anywhere it needs improved please contact User:Stepshep. If it meets your criteria it is requested you add it to this article's page for standardization. Thanks! §hep • ¡Talk to me! 17:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

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Antiquity of the Lakenvelder

I see that several years ago someone added some information about the antiquity of this fowl, which another few years later was deleted as frivolous.

This interested me, since I am doing some research on ancient fowl, so I began to look into this further. There is much material scattered all over the internet about the antiquity of the Lakenvelder but so far I haven't found much credible info.

I found one credible source that said the Lakenvelders and Fayoumis both descended from ancient Canaanite chickens. I am contacting him for more information on this. I have also contacted, and am awaiting, response from an evolutionary biologist who is an "authority on gallinaceous birds, biogeography, behavioral ecology and evolutionary biology. He is a lifelong aviculturist and conservator of Old and New Heritage Fowl." I also contacted an ornithologist, the Orthodox Union and Star-K. I will let you know what information they respond with.

CWatchman 20:16, 8 August 2018‎

.

I contacted a man who is an authority on the subject and works closely with other professionals in the field. In a paper he wrote it said that he was "an authority on gallinaceous birds." I sent him an excerpt of the claim of the antiquity of the Lakenvelder, which he seemed supportive of in his article, and asked if it was correct. Here is the excerpt I sent:

"Lakenvelders—Roman Jewish immigrants brought them with them to Westfalen Germany around 1 AD. They were originally called Tel Megiddo chickens. The breed later developed in Lakervelt, Germany just over the border from Holland. One can see the similarity in the name Lakenvelder and Lakervelt. The breed was raised by Jewish immigrants and became quite popular in Germany. The breed arrived in America in 1900 and gained acceptance into the American Poultry Association’s Standard of Perfection in 1939" . . . Is this information accurate and could I please have some references and sources verifying this information."

This was his reply:

“I received this information from 4 sources for a documentary on chickens. I don't know where they sourced their information. One was a scholar on good history, another on Jewish diaspora history; Roman history and an Egyptian with an interest in ethnozoology and bioarchaeology. I wish I could be of more help but they were difficult to reach and then schedule time with. None of them were interested in being filmed in the video but 2 were fine with voice overs that we ultimately decided against recording.”

So, from what I get out of his answer the above information is correct, BUT I am still left with no references. So I wrote back and asked for more information said that I needed a clear answer whether or not the the excerpt I sent was true. The answer I received was:

"It is true."

I will keep searching . . .

CWatchman 19:59, 9 August 2018‎

I have talked to several authorities on the subject and have obtained some references from Google Scholar, so if there is no objection I am going to add the information to the article.

Thank you.

CWatchman 19:11, 11 August 2018‎

To the individual who deleted a whole section:

You deleted an entire section from the Lakenvelder article without discussing it first on the Talk page where the addition of this section was discussed. If you would have taken the time to read that discussion you will find I did indeed consult authoritative sources before adding the material. If you doubted my sources you could have then requested better sources which I may or may not have been able to provide. The article would then have been edited accordingly. Please, in the future consult the Talk page before deleting such large sections from articles. CWatchman (talk)

I am contacting an individual who is described as "an authority on gallinaceous fowl, biogeography, behavioral ecology and evolutionary biology. He is a lifelong aviculturist and conservator of Old and New Heritage Fowl."

I am also contacting other sources, along with other books and articles, and intend on editing the article accordingly.

CWatchman (talk)

CWatchman, I must apologise. I did indeed remove your addition; I hope the my edit summary "extraordinary claims require extraordinarily good sourcing; if there's any truth in this fantasy, why isn't it reported in solid mainstream sources such as Roberts, the GEH, Ekarius etc" made it clear why I did so, but if not, please see Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. The sources cited in the article – the principal solid sources available to us for poultry articles - are complete silent on this story, and instead offer different and much more plausible histories. Not long ago, there was a somewhat similar attempt to insert an equally implausible fantasy, also involving a supposed origin in the Middle East, at Jacob sheep; that rather petered out when someone added this sentence: 'Elisha Gootwine, a sheep expert at the Israeli Agriculture Ministry, says that the resemblance of a British breed to the Bible story is a coincidence, that the breed was not indigenous to ancient Israel, and that "Jacob Sheep are related to Jacob the same as the American Indians are related to India".'

Why I must apologise is because I had written a history section to replace what I had removed, which however – through some blunder on my part – was not saved; I hope I have now remedied that oversight. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:45, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers, Apology accepted. However, I do have a question. The source where most of your information comes from is Aviculture Europe. You therefore must consider this to be a reliable source. Most of MY information came from Aviculture Europe also. Why are your Aviculture Europe sources better than mine?

I personally contacted the authors from these sources and others who all verified my information was correct before I added it to the article. I sent a lot of emails, made a lot of phone calls, and did a lot of research before making my additions. Please do not consider my questions as contentious, I am just asking. Thank you.

CWatchman (talk)

Justlettersandnumbers, Also please tell me which of the sources I referenced were not reliable sources. I list them here:

1. Christine Heinrichs, Kermit Blackwood, The Egyptian Fayoumi, Aviculture-Europe, 2011, pg 11

2. Mi, Jean. "Pré-Columbian (Araucana) New Finding," section 37

3. Basset, Charles, The Livestock Conservancy, 2009, pg 1

4. Sturges, Thomas William. The Poultry Manual A Complete Guide For The Breeder And Exhibitor. Macdonald And Evans; London, 1911, pg 503

5. Kreton, Ruud, Lakenvelder, Aviculture-Europe, 2007, pgs 1-2

The lakenvelder chicken didn't just come out of nowhere in Holland. It HAD to have descended from a previous breed. The sources I quote addresses it's ancestry. Those you referenced do not. They only begin with the breed in Holland and Germany.

Thank you. CWatchman (talk)

.

I checked my prior sources out and I am still in the process of researching additional sources. Aviculture Europe appears to be a credible source and I have an Aviculture Europe article with more information which in turn cites other sources within the article. I have contacted authorities on gallinaceous fowl for more information. I intend on getting a concrete answer on the antiquity of the Lakenvelder, whether it proves or disproves it. I am aware that several genetic gallus clads have been traced throughout the world and perhaps I can get some information from these research projects. It may take some time. I plan on putting something together and discussing it here first before adding to the article. Thank you.CWatchman (talk)

Here is the original piece I submitted which was removed (and in which I see no fabulous or extraordinary statements):

Lakenvelders are descended from an ancient Canaanite breed in the Middle East.[1] They were raised and brought to Europe by the Jewish diaspora[2][3] and referred to as "Lakenfelder de Jerusalem."[4] Sometime between 1727 and 1835 it was bred and developed to the breed it is today by both the Dutch and the Westfalen Germans.[5] It was popular in pre-war Europe but waned during the war period.

References

1. Christine Heinrichs, Kermit Blackwood, The Egyptian Fayoumi, Aviculture-Europe, 2011, pg 11

2. Mi, Jean. "Pré-Columbian (Araucana) New Finding," section 37

3. Basset, Charles, The Livestock Conservancy, 2009, pg 1

4. Sturges, Thomas William. The Poultry Manual A Complete Guide For The Breeder And Exhibitor. Macdonald And Evans; London, 1911,pg 503

5. Kreton, Ruud, Lakenvelder, Aviculture-Europe, 2007, pgs 1-2

CWatchman (talk) 16:17, 2 January 2019 (UTC)