Talk:Lamentatio sanctae matris ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae

Why is it unclear?

Dear FP, you stated in the article that "It is [...] unclear whether the piece was ever performed on that occasion", but the source I found [Edmund A. Bowles, "Instruments at the Court of Burgundy (1363-1467)", The Galpin Society Journal, Vol. 6, (Jul., 1953), pp. 42-43 ] states in no uncertain terms: In the howdah was a woman dressed in white satin robes to show the superiority of her birth and her noble lineage; she depicted the captive Church begging for delivery by a crusade. (The poor creature was none other than the resourceful Olivier de la Marche,who sang his 'pleadings' in a high falsetto voice, and completed his colourful performance with Dufay's four-part 'Lamentatio sanctae matris ecclesiae Constantinopolitana). Bowles cites André Pirro's Histoire de la Musique de la fin du XI ème siècle à la fin du XVI ème (Paris, 1940), as his source giving no further details. Do your sources suggest that this particular work may have not been performed? --Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 08:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Good question. Sources are disagreeing. Look up the one in footnote 6 for starters. Unfortunately, the link to my best online source went dead on me yesterday while I was working, so I can no longer look up what that one says. Just now, I'm finding in a German-language book on Google books (Spechtler, Franz Viktor: Lyrik des ausgehenden 14. und des 15. Jahrhunderts. Rodopi, 1984, p. 156) the following (my translation from German:)

The culmination of the Feast of the Pheasant was without doubt the appearance of the lamenting Church […] the role of the Church was allegedly played by Olivier de la Marche himself [Footnote unfortunately points to a ref not online on Google books, F.P.] In his memoirs, Olivier quotes the complete text of the Complainte recited by the Eglise, as does Mathieu d'Escouchy. However, the text quoted by both authors shows that it can impossibly have been Dufay's motetus; also, neither of them explicitly mentions recitation by singing. The text of the Eglise runs:

Complainte de la dame.

Helas! helas! moy douloureuse,

Triste, desplaisant, annuyeuse,

[…]

The context for Dufay's Lamentatio as it has been repeatedly cited since Ambros (1868) is therefore wrong. Like with other works, the attested sources are contextless. The upshot for Dufay is thus: of the four religious-political lamentationes that he wrote about the Fall of Constantinople, [Footnote points to page missing on Google, F.P.] only a single one has been found until now; but the whole communicative context of this lamentatio is, contrary to what has been the prevailing opinion, unknown.

Stay tuned, we'll have to work further on this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! If need be I can always pay a visit to the Lilian Voudouris Musical Library here in the Megaron Mousikis and see if I can dig out anything more.--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 08:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer! I should be able to consult a music library myself here too. I'd certainly want to have a look at the edition and critical apparatus in Corpus mensurabilis musicae, and at whatever New Grove has to say about it. By the way, I've proposed the article for "Did You Know" now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)