Talk:Larry Carlton

Early history

In 1966 Larry was working in a trio backing singer Donnie Brooks ("Mission Bell", 1960), doing various clubs and other gigs in the greater Los Angeles area. He is on at least one Donnie Brooks 45. In summer 1967 his trio also played a regular weekend after-hours gig at topless beer bar, backing a performer known as Jimmy Soul (not the 1963 charted artist), with Buzz Corey on bass and yours truly on drums.

Gem777 (talk) 03:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Gary Myers —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gem777 (talk • contribs) 22:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Peacock words or copyright violation?

I just added an infobox and reference section to what was there already. No references, and by the tone and the adjectives used in the article, I suspect it was liberally copied from somewhere. At the very least there appears to be some POV issues. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 05:18, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, almost exactly twelve months on, there still needs to be far more Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources added, and considerably less pseudo rock journalistic fancruft.

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 00:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

With A Little Help From My Friends 1968 Uni

Just FYI: The hyperlink on Larry's Discography goes to the link for the Song, not his album.

(Oops... I wasn't logged-In).

albabe - The Writer/Artist Formally Known as Al Gordon 21:24, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Theme from Hill Street Blues - citation needed?

Just wandering in here, I see that someone's tagged the note that Larry Carlton played guitar on the Theme from Hill Street Blues with a "citation needed". Not sure what kind of citation is required. The link to Theme from Hill Street Blues leads to the page of that title which notes that Larry Carlton performed on it. And there's a very old video on YouTube of a medley of Larry Carlton's guitar work, which opens with Theme from Hill Street Blues, here: Larry Carlton - Solos (Hill Street Blues / Kid Charlemagne / Don't Take Me Alive / and...). So, I'm not sure what the dispute is. --Davecampbell (talk) 16:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

The linked work is not a reliable source. The YouTube video cannot be used as the uploader is not the owner of the work. One of the references at the article showed a chart that listed him as a performer. That was enough. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:57, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Unsourced works

@Vmavanti: removed {{blp sources}} from the discography section. The underlying issue is verifiability. How can readers check that the information comes from a reliable source? When it was a few recordings, I agree that it wasn't necessary. Now that it's over 200, it really is necessary. The extent of Carlton's involvement should, at the very least, be signified.

As for multiple columns, again without it, the discography takes up too much space. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:55, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Albums are published works, so verifiability is rarely much of an issue unless he is uncredited or they are bootlegs. If the list is getting long, we can move it to a separate discography page. Chubbles (talk) 01:43, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, but the role should be listed. One song? One of several guitarists? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:14, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

That sounds entirely reasonable - perhaps a table format could be used to list role/other relevant context, like additional session players. Chubbles (talk) 12:33, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Vmavanti: I did not request that the list be reduced, only that it be adequately sourced. AllMusic doesn't list most of the ones that were there before, only 37, and discogs.com] has 78, so you can understand my confusion and request for sources. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:28, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I spent three hours working on that discography. I removed most of my work solely at your request, despite my disagreement with it. Remember that. People assume all discographies are the same—a list and nothing more. That's wrong. Looks can be deceiving. It takes a long time to get to that finished list. Pop and rock discographies are one subject, jazz another. Jazz discogs can be complicated, confusing, inchoate, contradictory, slapdash, and baffling. We must distinguish further between how jazz discographies are written for certain kinds of publications and how they ought to appear in Wikipedia. Why does Larry Carlton have such a long discog? He was a studio musician back when such people were in high demand. He did it for a living. He played all kinds of genres for all kinds of musicians and labels. He wasn't some arts fartsy bookworm daydreamer. Call him and he showed up ready to work. Becker & Fagen loved him. He was educated in music, could read music, could play all styles, could record a part with v. little notice or preparation. He built a studio in his home, then ran his record label. Those are facts, not opinions or cheerleading for a cause. Nuff said.
Vmavanti (talk) 17:33, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

So just to be clear, I made no request to remove any of the content so please don't put this on my head. What I did do was tag it as needing references because most of it was unsourced and did not agree with sources that I checked (I'm sorry I didn't explain that initially). I have no doubt you researched this, but WP:V requires that others be permitted to verify your sourcing. I know he was a prolific studio musician, and that's why we need to source it. {{Cite AV media notes}} is enough. Also, the question above about whether Carlton was a band member or just a session player (hired gun) is important for the works, but that's just my opinion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:32, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I hate to see good work go to waste, so I restored the full list; it doesn't appear that Vmavanti actually wanted to remove the list of his own volition, but did so in the mistaken belief that it was what you had requested. I also tagged it for a possible split into a separate discography page, which might be advisable given its length. Chubbles (talk) 18:04, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I hate to see WP:OR, and without sources, that's what we have. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

What's the research here, though? Compiling a list of appearances in published works is not research; it's merely compilation, which is what we do on Wikipedia all the time. If he were identifying uncredited appearances, or deducing Carlton's appearance on albums based on the unique qualities of his tone or playing style, I agree that would be OR. Chubbles (talk) 00:29, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

That's the problem. They're all listed under "as sideman" which is meaningless. Was he hired as a studio musician, did he tour the material after, what was the actual nature of the relationship? Without the actual sources, it cannot be known. but I'd be more than happy to ask for an opinion at RSN. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:56, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

"As sideman" just means he is not the leader of the recording session; that's standard practice in jazz discographies, and it translates easily to studio/session musicians in other realms. I'm all for more detail about the nature of the relationship with sources, but that's better included in the prose of the article than in the list itself. Chubbles (talk) 03:30, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I know what the term means, but it's still not sufficient to make it clear what his role on the work was. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable to assume that the role is "guitarist", unless otherwise indicated. If he were a multi-instrumentalist, or commonly produced, or something like that, we might want to set up a table format instead. Chubbles (talk) 17:10, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

And think here equates to WP:OR. The question is not whether he played guitar or not; the question is whether he was a studio musician on one song, or multiple; as the sole rhythm guitarist, or one of many, whether he had any lead parts or not. That's where the questions are. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

If we want to provide that level of detail, I welcome it, though it's beyond what some people consider appropriate for a general encyclopedia. None of it is OR. Carlton is credited with playing guitar on the releases, which are published works. That's all a discography is establishing. The thinking here is about the information organization - whether we need to put "guitarist" next to hundreds of credits, or whether we can safely assume the reader understands he played guitar on them, since he is principally known as as guitarist. Chubbles (talk) 17:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

The term "sideman" may be clear, but it's been my experience that who is or isn't a sideman on an album is often unclear. IP editors rarely get it right. Jazz musicians dislike definition because they dislike limitation, and that's bad news for anyone trying to write about them, because we're in the definition business. We often have to compromise due to the fluid nature of the genre and everything that entails, otherwise the work would never get done. This usually means "less is more": the more information you include, the more need there is for sources. That's one reason I prefer discographies to have as little information as possible: Name of album, name of label, and year of release. That's it. I dislike having a table that contains everyone who appeared on the album. It's too much. The eyes glaze over. Tables present information in non-hierarchical way that is difficult to read. I have only two categories: Leader and sideman. That's enough to keep anyone busy. Sometimes a person we think is a sideman is really a co-leader or vice versa. There's no way to tell with certainty. With a duo, sure, maybe trio. But jazz is collaborative. ECM Records is notorious for blurring these lines. Look at some of their album covers. Who is the leader? The person whose name is at the top? Maybe. In the biggest letters? Maybe. Are the others sideman or co-leaders? I don't know. One time Pat Metheny said the musicians he worked with had their names listed alphabetically. There was no way to tell who the leader was, if any, and there was no source (article, review) to tell you. Sometimes people show up and jam. There. That's an album. Instead of getting upset about "original research", let's keep our common sense and understand that every person has to deal with ambiguity. In jazz there's a lot of ambiguity. Sometimes nothing but. It takes a long, long time to write and check these discographies. I assure you I am not thoughtlessly copy/pasting, then hurrying to the next thing. I have spent many late nights. There are many facts, which I often check multiple times, and then there can be contradictions and discrepancies. Does resolving them constitute original research? No, not really. If there's heated debate about something, I leave it out, but that rarely happens. I don't try to include every piece of information. Most. Not all. It's sufficient. Jazz discographies resist precision. I try to avoid writing long discographies, but in the case of Larry Carlton that's impossible.
Vmavanti (talk) 00:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

In these discographies, the term "sideman" is interchangeable with "guest". Sometimes the musician makes a guest appearance on one song, or two, or the whole album. It's a contribution. That's another reason why people often use the word "collaboration" incorrectly. If one person appears on another's album, it's usually not a collaboration. It's a contribution. Like a cameo in a movie but with vary degrees of impact. It might help to think: "leader" versus "everything else".
Vmavanti (talk) 00:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

1988 shooting

It's a little odd to me that this article makes no mention of Larry being shot in the neck in the 80s and the rehabilitation subsequent to that. I might come back to add something about that, there's plenty of valid references. Randall00 ^Talk 21:50, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Link Error

In the discography that’s listed on this page, there’s an album listed called “Renegade Gentleman”. Musician Terry McMillan is listed as appearing on this album. However, the link to Mr. McMillian’s page instead goes to the black female author of the same name. 2601:14A:501:D00:E895:694:CF37:728D (talk) 22:32, 15 May 2023 (UTC)