Talk:Last Hope (TV series)

Missing Edit Logs?

So I noticed in the article's history a bunch of edit logs have been deleted, does anybody know why this is? Yapool Seijin (talk) 04:53, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Did you bother to read the edit summaries? Clearly it was because of copyright violations. —Farix (t | c) 11:40, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Genre Deletion

Why are genres being wrongfully deleted from this article? AnimeNewsNetwork (which has always been used as a reliable source) has listed it as science fiction and it is clearly a mecha series. I have never seen this happen with any anime article and I want to know Farix's justification for it. If ANN is now no longer reliable then inform us what source are reliable. Yapool Seijin (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Did you look at "ANN" encyclopedia. If it listed it there under "news". Similar to http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2016-09-03/interviews-with-monster-girls-demi-chan-wa-kataritai-comedy-manga-gets-tv-anime/.106077 as this is to a different show. Other than that, then you have to show the info otherwise. Tainted-wingsz (talk) 18:40, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

All genres must be cited to a reliable source that directly states the genre. Genres is one of the biggest areas where original research often occurs on Wikipedia and we have been cracking down on this area in the last few months. Websites based on user generated content, such as AniDb, MyAnimeList, and ANN's encyclopedia, are not reliable sources. Also, I taken a look through ANN's news articles and could not find any genres specifically mentioned. —Farix (t | c) 02:21, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Let me get this straight: We cannot use the media itself as a source because it is primary, we cannot use official sites because they are primary, we cannot use MAL or AniDB because being user contributed compromises reliability, and now ANN (which has been trusted for over a decade) cannot be used outside of news articles despite having a high trusted encyclopedia. What database does one use for citing genres now? On top of that this logic can go a step further, entire discographies of directors, producers, writers, actors, etc. can now be qualified as unsourced/original research because ANN's encyclopedia cannot be used anymore and it takes little effort for someone to look at an official site of one of these people and go "primary source", can't use it. These ramifications are possible if there is not at least a worthy replacement. Then we have a hypothetical scenario of what if this anime gets into Super Robot Wars (since Kawamori's a big name in mecha anime that's likely), does that mean an article announcing it is now a citation for it being mecha? Or is that now allowed since Yamato 2199 isn't technically mecha but still had an appearance? Yapool Seijin (talk) 04:03, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

You do realize that ANN's encyclopedia is based on user generated content? User generated content sites cannot be used as sources. This goes for IMDb as well, which is also based on user generated content. Even the chief encyclopedist for ANN's encyclopedia has gone on record to state that the encyclopedia . ANN's encyclopedia section has been discussed at length multiple times in the years. You can find details at WP:A&M/ORS#Situational. Second, you cannot use primary sources to make interpretative claims. Genres falls under interpretive claims. —Farix (t | c) 04:37, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that is an issue, and since the regular go-to source(s) cannot be used to cite genres anymore, now what do editors use instead? This ruling makes a very large chunk of all anime articles on Wikipedia are now incapable of genre classification and that is a problem since that is something the average reader is going to want to know. Do we have a reliable replacement anywhere? Does said replacement need to be in English (I've dumpster dived for monster of the week info before, trust me you can be lead to some weird places)? If not should we just toss out genres in the infoboxes and categories entirely? To quote the generic 4chan phrase: "What do?". I also never received an answer on my Super Robot Wars example, I'm just saying if there is no ruling expect editors to cite that at some point. Yapool Seijin (talk) 16:25, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Just because you cannot source all genres for every anime or manga doesn't mean that the field should be removed. If there are no reliable sources stating the genre, then the field should be left blank. While genres do help the reader understand the topic better, they are not essential information. —Farix (t | c) 16:29, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

No, genres are important for classifying entertainment articles and they should never be left blank. A reliable source did exist, it just got removed recently and nobody bothered to look for a replacement. The only response I've seen from the higher ups on the subject boils down to "oh well" which raises eyebrows at best. There also appears to be a contradiction in your statement, claiming genres are "not essential" but removing them from the infobox is unnecessary because a handful of articles have the beloved secondary source. Blank is bad as it indicates lost information even when it was never lost. I have no idea where this style derived its mentality, but it needs to be faced. It's bureaucracy oversights like this which has driven off people from Wikipedia in recent years because editors such as myself are being bogged down by strange rulings like this which make little sense and nobody provides methods to solve their problems. For this page as an example I was considering doing minor plot or character summaries, but now I'm afraid that sentences such as mentioning the main character piloting a mecha/referring to the mech's name will be met with "unsourced/cruft/needs secondary citation/not MoS/etc." twinkles even though the vast majority of the run time on this clearly points it out and that is a major character trait that is part of the main plot. Heck, I am convinced there's a good chance giving a minor plot summary will get me banned because you know we've butted heads over this type of stuff in the past, but at least I found a spot to move most monster of the week information I collected to the /m/ wikia. For this, however, where do you put simple genre classification? Does that need a wikia too? And I actually like anime from Shoji Kawamori (usually, not Arjuna), what about the dozens if not hundreds of obscure anime titles that don't have fandoms or lunatics like me looking out for them? At the very least there should be a tag/category for anime/manga that do not have cited genres if this goes unchecked and unchallenged, because even if we cannot find a solution there needs to be a list so someone that can do it is able to notice. Yapool Seijin (talk) 19:30, 28 July 2018 (UTC)