Talk:Law and Justice/Archives/2021/June

Christian democracy

Firstly I am not sure they are all that democratic given their recent dismantling of democratic institutions and leaning towards the opposite. The source quoted is from 2007, when perhaps they were put in the same category as their Christian predecessors, but certainly a lot has changed since. Furthermore on page 170 it actually states that their manifesto from 2001 had almost no Christian-democratic values (Polish: Podsumowując manifest Prawa i Sprawiedliwości z 2001 r., trzeba powiedzieć, że elementy chrześcijańsko-demokratyczne nie występują w nim prawie wcale) and actually explains in detail how it relies on what they deem as "Christian values" but barely any note of the democratic aspect. It does say that as a ZP coalition entity they could be considered having elements of Christian democracy, but that more thanks to Gowin's (what is now) Agreement rather than PiS themselves. In 2007 they did incorporate Christian-democratic elements in their manifesto without being outright Christian-democratic (page 180). The source talks about Gowin a bit as well. I believe that the label is therefore incorrect, unless someone can find a clear academic source stating otherwise, and a recent one too. Abcmaxx (talk) 22:59, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

When we were reaching a consensus for the infobox a couple of months ago, I tried looking for newer sources that describe Law and Justice as Christian democratic and I couldn't find one. Certainly, a lot has changed inside the party and I nor I believe anyone would consider them democratic right now. I proposed to only include Christian right due to their very socially conservative stances but in the end I agreed on the addition of Christian democracy too. Other editors that participated in that discussion can join this one too, I think it's somewhat disputed like their far-right label. --Vacant0 (talk) 09:24, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I did mention it at the time but I think it got lost because there was discussion of several things there. I have now looked at the source in a bit more detail. Certainly we can keep the source, but I think Christian-democracy if it is present at all, it is only in very small parts and therefore I would submit that it does not belong in the infobox. Abcmaxx (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

@Bacondrum, Martopa, Checco, Ezhao02, Autospark, Storm598, Beyond My Ken, and Kashmiri: pinging Users active in previous discussion (apologies if I missed anyone). Abcmaxx (talk) 13:59, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I suggest we try to maintain a distinction between PiS the political party and the current coalition government. While acknowledging the fairly unprecedented power grab on the government's part (which to higher or lesser extent takes place with every change of government, not only in Poland, although the PiS-dominated cabinet has it done on an incredibly big scale), I find no real signs that PiS has planned or is planning to undermine the very foundations of a democratic state. There are no proposals to extend the president's rule beyond what constitution sets forth (unlike what's happening in, say, Belarus or Russia), no attempts to change the vote-counting methods or the boundaries of electoral precincts, so common for example in the US (but also in the UK), no attempts to disband or even influence the Electoral Commission (and so all the recent elections in Poland have been considered largely free and fair). There are no attempts to delegalise the opposition parties nor even any reported harassment, and the most (rightly) criticised efforts of the coalition government have been aimed at "neutralising the key threats" to their rule: the public media, the judiciary (which traditionally is socially progressive, as is the majority of urban middle class), the Citizens' Ombudsman, etc. If anything, I'd be more inclined to discuss the totalitarian democracy label than to remove democracy altogether. But again, there should be a distinction between a party's programme and the decisions of the coalition government. — kashmīrī ^TALK 15:21, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

@Kashmiri: right that would explain that they are perhaps not specifically anti-democratic. But being a political party (a democratic entity) and Christian, does not make them "Christian democratic" in political scientific terms. In fact under ideology section there's a source specifically titled "Why is there no Christian Democracy in Poland (and why does this matter)?". Abcmaxx (talk) 16:44, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Out of all ideologies in the infobox, Christian democracy is the least referenced one. We either need to find new ones or we can discuss "why do we need to keep it" or "why we cannot keep it". --Vacant0 (talk) 18:41, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I've removed it and moved the source to the ideology section, as I could not anything that would support that label. Abcmaxx (talk) 21:12, 5 June 2021 (UTC)